When to feed when not cooperating?

[Vulturesnake]

Hi there, new to falconry at home, not new to working with BOP at a facility.
Now my question is, how do you deal with needing to feed a bird their ration of food for the day while under weight management, and they are misbehaving and not Cooperating. I know there is a day or two with bigger birds that can be fasted, but if they are still not responding the way you want, how is the best way to feed without rewarding the behavior.

Last summer I flew a Harris for an education flight demo, not hunting. He is always a mischief maker, but this year was bad. Constantly testing his limiting to see what he can get away with, and we mistakenly were constantly rewarded his behavior, because he knew no matter what he did outside he would get a piece of food. Behaviors such as refusing to go to glove when outside (while being in his best behavior inside) or doing fly bys for food at perch and sitting for long periods of time. All at a usual weight for flying for him. Tried random rewarding but he caught on quick and would only come if a piece was seen. Training with a whistling bridge made after doing the action before eating the piece...
Harris is smart! And he knew we wouldn't strave him. Before starting with my Redtail I want to know how some of you deal with the need to feed, but not wanting to reward. And how to deal with this when outside and potentially dealing with a percher?
All these behaviors were done outside when free flying. He knew that while inside he needed to prove he was reliable, and on beat behavior, but as soon as trusted to go outside started up... Haha like working with me as a child!
Rhiannon

[Tasha55403]

Easy, lol. Don't feed them! Especially if they know the game. If they know the game and they won't come to the glove it means they are too fat. Ie they just aren't hungry enough. When they ARE hungry they will come. That's how you determine the appropriate weight to keep them at for flying/hunting. Do you have a sponsor yet? They should be able to help you out. Also, have you read many falconry books yet? Most of them go over this stuff

[Breeze]

Easy, lol. Don't feed them! Especially if they know the game. If they know the game and they won't come to the glove it means they are too fat. Ie they just aren't hungry enough. When they ARE hungry they will come. That's how you determine the appropriate weight to keep them at for flying/hunting. Do you have a sponsor yet? They should be able to help you out. Also, have you read many falconry books yet? Most of them go over this stuff

[Vulturesnake]

We don't do sponsors here. I work at this facility under a falconer, this is my experience, with flight demo birds. My application for falconry permit for home is underway.
See the thing is, he wasn't fat, we had him at his usual flying weight he has every year, even pushed to lower it as we could. He would behave well inside for weeks. Knowing the moment he's free flighted he would go along with routine, then as soon as he ate his portions he would sit and not want to go inside. We lowered his weight, but it got to a point where it was low enough that we couldn't just not give him food for a day or two. We tried fasting too for one day but he was still a smart alec... Especially being so smart, he knew we would give him food no matter what he did. I think we were rewarding it, but when is the line drawn for when you already tried fasting and have lowered weights, that you still not feed out that day? Its not good to drop weight by fasting, but then we are rewarding bad behavior.. You know what I mean?

[jal4470]

We don't do sponsors here. I work at this facility under a falconer, this is my experience, with flight demo birds. My application for falconry permit for home is underway.
See the thing is, he wasn't fat, we had him at his usual flying weight he has every year, even pushed to lower it as we could. He would behave well inside for weeks. Knowing the moment he's free flighted he would go along with routine, then as soon as he ate his portions he would sit and not want to go inside. We lowered his weight, but it got to a point where it was low enough that we couldn't just not give him food for a day or two. We tried fasting too for one day but he was still a smart alec... Especially being so smart, he knew we would give him food no matter what he did. I think we were rewarding it, but when is the line drawn for when you already tried fasting and have lowered weights, that you still not feed out that day? Its not good to drop weight by fasting, but then we are rewarding bad behavior.. You know what I mean?

It is tautalogicaly true that if your bird is not responding it is not at weight. That is how the proper weight is defined. It don't matter that the scale is reading the same today as yesterday, if they behaved yesterday they were at weight, if they are not behaving today they are not at weight. Weather to raise or lower the weight can be difficult to figure out, which is why Tasha's advice is good. By raising the weight first you know you have room to move downwards.

[goshawkr]

It is tautalogicaly true that if your bird is not responding it is not at weight. That is how the proper weight is defined. It don't matter that the scale is reading the same today as yesterday, if they behaved yesterday they were at weight, if they are not behaving today they are not at weight. Weather to raise or lower the weight can be difficult to figure out, which is why Tasha's advice is good. By raising the weight first you know you have room to move downwards.

One thing to be very careful of here though, a bird that is dangerously low in weight acts just like a bird that is too fat.

[Vulturesnake]

One thing to be very careful of here though, a bird that is dangerously low in weight acts just like a bird that is too fat.

Yes! This is part of my question from the beginning. I had just read a great article from an AHT that is posted on a forum here about the dangers of fasting solely to lose weight rather than decreasing food amounts! When the bird is too low, it talked about the energy reserve being the same as when too high... So when you have lowers the weight of a bird, it's not cooperating, and let's just say, it went to a danger zone of low or the minimum you want they at, is simply not feeding that day a good idea when them are cooperating? Should you wait a few hours and then feed the amount so as not to reinforce a behavior you don't want?

Also apologizes for my spelling, I'm on mobile! Autocorrect!

[Breeze]

All these behaviors were done outside when free flying. He knew that while inside he needed to prove he was reliable, and on beat behavior, but as soon as trusted to go outside started up... Haha like working with me as a child!
Rhiannon

Have you ever trained a dog? You train the basics in a quiet area, without distractions. That way they can focus on exactly what is being shown to them. They will then do stuff GREAT when inside. Take that dog outside and they won't be so "great" - they will lose focus, they will "act up" and they are no longer focusing just on you. There are distractions out there!

Kind of the same with a hawk. Train inside first, to teach what you want. EXPECT less perfect behavior outside and adjust for it. In the case of a RTH, bring the weight down a little until they are as focused on you outside as they were inside. If behavior is bad, don't feed. Food is their reward for doing what is expected. They will not starve if they miss a meal or two, but they will start paying more attention to what is needed on their part to make that meal happen.

[sharptail]

Are you familiar with the term YARAK? The thing about Yarak weight is that it is constantly changing. A few influences that make Yarak weight change are weather and temp., the age of the bird, the physical condition of the bird and migration urges.

It should be remembered that true falconry(hunting) is a partnership between the raptor and the falconer. They get it when you help them do what they do naturally. Without hunting, there is much less of a partnership and also less of a bond between bird and human. Birds of advanced age may get bord with the same old game when it don't include what they are really into...hunting. The problems you describe may be as simple as proper weight control or something much more. Alway, the first thing to check for is proper health of the raptor. It is often at the root of many unusual behaviors.

[Vulturesnake]

Thank you for your replies! It does make sense that this would be a different relationship when hunting with a bird, rather than flight demos with the same routine.

I am very excited to embark on actual falconry it sounds amazingly thrilling.

Rhiannon

[Tasha55403]

He's a harris hawk. As I'm sure you've noticed he's very intelligent. I'm betting he has indeed figured out that you will feed him no matter what he does. That's where the weight management comes in. There's a difference between low and hungry. Usually the two go together but you can lower a bird's weight to death's door without actually making him HUNGRY. Giving a bird several small meals every day will lower their weight but won't really make them HUNGRY. That's where fasting a day or even two works wonders. You want a bird at as high a weight as possible, but low enough they actually GET hungry and want to eat.

In this bird's case, he knows the game, he knows exactly what he has to do to get fed. He ALSO knows he doesn't have to do it if he doesn't want to. I would bring his weight up to a nice fat, healthy weight where he will still come instantly inside to the glove. Make sure he can't see what's in the glove and still comes-it's very important that he can't decide the tidbit you're offering isn't good enough. Vary the size and be sure to jackpot him occasionally when he responds instantly. When he's doing that well, take him back outside and try again.

Again, be sure he can't see what you're offering. If he refuses to come to the glove, don't beg him. Pick him up after a minute and put him away. The mouse went down the hole, he lost his chance. Try again after several hours. Same deal. If he refuses, put him away until the next day. If he's at a good, healthy weight he can go DAYS without eating. You aren't going to hurt him. He's not going to starve himself to death when he knows exactly what he needs to do, he's just not interested. He's not a wild bird, he doesn't have all that fear to overcome at this point.

Don't give him any tidbits before training and only work with him once a day (ie once he's done his job and eaten, leave him alone), you need him to be HUNGRY. Not low, hungry. Tidbits or food given in other situations (ie just to make sure he's fed) will just take the edge off his hunger and get you nowhere.

If he comes instantly outside, don't be afraid to jackpot him on the very first call (if you've got other things to do and don't have much time, this is a handy time to jackpot him like this). If you only give tiny tidbits and call him dozens of times, he might decide it's not worth the effort. If he thinks he MIGHT get a whole meal, just for coming to the glove outside he will be much more inclined to do it. You can't hide a whole quail in your glove of course, but you can hide a tidbit he'll have to pull at and either sneak a large reward into the glove (or just put it there if he's not grabby), or toss out a lure and let him jump down to it, whatever works for you.

To summarize, vary the size and schedule of the rewards and don't be afraid to let him get hungry.

[dboyrollz76]

I had this subsidiary with my female hh. She would come to the glove eat the tidbit then fly away. My remedy was, stepping back in my training, lowering her weight some and tireings on the glove to reinforce staying on the glove. That seemed to work for the most part.

[Vulturesnake]

Love the tips! Jackpot reward would work great while training and not having to do the whole routine. Staying on the glove is sometimes an issue too. But not as much!
It is all about outsmarting them sometimes, makes me glad I decided to get a RTH as my first falconry bird. I would love to have one maybe two Harris one day, working with the Harris at the facility can be fun but yes they are more trouble makers for sure. Keeps you on your toes!


When offering the glove, how many of you have a piece ready or hidden or give with forceps? To retrain to allow touch on full body, I had piece visible on top of glove put on behind back, then a second piece hidden within the palm of the glove, random reward so he looked for that second piece and allowed touch. Worked great! I have never given tidbits on forceps before, how does that work for some of you with training?

Rhiannon

[Breeze]

. . . It is all about outsmarting them sometimes, makes me glad I decided to get a RTH as my first falconry bird. . . .

Don't make the mistake of thinking a RTH is dumb. They aren't. Fly them overweight and you'll very likely be looking to trap another. Just sayin'.

[Steve Jones]

You have been given some good advice already, I will add that Harris' hawks will get board doing simple demonstration flights. I worked for a place years ago that did demonstration flights for the public. With our Harris' we would change things up regularly to keep it interesting for him, and it helped a lot. Have the person calling him to the fist hide, and then show up in an unexpected place, make him look for you. Make him fly around things, or under things, anything to make it more challenging for him. With his safety in mind of course. Maybe introduce a lure. I think boredom/lack of challenge is your biggest problem here. Falconry birds are consistently challenged while hunting. Education birds have a much simpler life, and intelligent Harris' hawks get bored easily.

[red_tailed]

These things with the Harris are what might = a lost passage rth. A "fat" Harris will still do stuff and it's all cute and stuff when they take a bit of time to come down. A fat passage rth will just sit in a tree for hours or just fly away in a soar. I've done flight demos for years as well, but my falconry experience shows me when a bird is fat or high in weight. If the bird "behaves" inside but looks at everything but you or takes his time looking at his feet ect ect outside then he is high. As for when to feed a bird when they act up, easy. A few hrs later. Call the bird down, put him away and then go back a few hrs later so that the behaviour and reward are not connected.

Bob
BC, Canada

[Vulturesnake]

His routine has been the same for some years now, the handlers found if you changed things it would freak the birds out and they would avoid or not cooperate. The old falconer a while back had rules about, no wearing hats, or if one person had a ponytail. All had ponytail etc.... Trying to do things differently for them ended up backfiring as they were spooked, or changing their routine they didn't understand the new thing we are asking, even landing in a different spot than usual, would just continue with the old or get thrown off.. Do you find this is something that would happen when changing things up for a falconry bird... Keeping in mind, changing things up for a bird that has been used to years of strict routine? I assume it would be better to start the bird with a constant changing of environment or actions while flying.
Makes me think for sure! I've always though that with birds they have they're routines and don't like it changing at all! It would be more enriching.
The more I read threads the more I learn the differences of demonstration flights and falconry hunting!

Rhiannon

[Steve Jones]

If you have a Harris' hawk that gets freaked out because someone has a ponytail you have some pretty serious issues.

[Vulturesnake]

I could list a billion things that bird is sensitive to! Its crazy! Haha. But when working for a facility there are many things at play with how things are handled or done.
Hopefully with my bird at home it will not get to this point, but a good conversation piece. When a bird if that sensitive, is it the best course of action to desensitize? I have seen birds especially of high intelligence, Harris and Turkey Vulture pick situations that can 'scar' them from a certain handler, not forgive easily or at all, and sometimes just decide they don't like a certain handler... I've seen this even in a gry-lanner falcon, who would come to three other handlers gloves, (even me who was new) but not one other handler. And would sit and do just horrible lure flights with them despite low weight. Haha
Is a sensitivity sometimes attributed to the birds previous history or maybe personality than handling techniques? (Though I'm not saying how the Harris has been worked with has encouraged pickyness)

Rhiannon

[dboyrollz76]

I think you'll find a passage red tail, conditioned to hunt, a whole other ball game and probably less stressful to work with than the Harris hawk.

[goshawkr]

Hi there, new to falconry at home, not new to working with BOP at a facility.
Now my question is, how do you deal with needing to feed a bird their ration of food for the day while under weight management, and they are misbehaving and not Cooperating. I know there is a day or two with bigger birds that can be fasted, but if they are still not responding the way you want, how is the best way to feed without rewarding the behavior.

In general, you have received some excellent answers. But let me attempt to dive in a little deeper here.

What you described with the Harris hawk at the facility you worked at is a text book example of getting played by your subject. That hawk buffaloed you - and you blinked (along with, I am certain, every other handler who has worked with it.)

The way to avoid that is to have firm, achievable goals. By achievable, I mean you know damn well the hawk knows what is expected. In addition to that, you need to be a hard ass about the expectation. For example, when you call, the hawk has 5 seconds to be on the way or the offer is removed. Then let it sit and think for a good long time (15 min+) before it gets another opportunity. One key to this though, is you need to be sure that you always have enough time to wait things out if there is not a response. Doing anything else sets the stage for your hawk to be training you to give it a better offer.

Some people get way too caught up in the notion that they are boss. Its a partnership between you and the hawk. However, you do need discipline. There will come times when your hawks life may well be at stake if it dosnt listen - like say when a bald eagle is coming in.

As you train new behaviors, you expand the expectations incrementally. If you seem to have taken a step too far and asked to much, then wait for a reset period (15 min+), and next time take a step back. But never EVER reward an ignored call by sweeting the pot. Of course, there is no such thing as never - but when you do that you need to realize you just created a problem for yourself and it should be an extreme emergency.

I have seen birds especially of high intelligence, Harris and Turkey Vulture pick situations that can 'scar' them from a certain handler, not forgive easily or at all, and sometimes just decide they don't like a certain handler...

One thing to get out of your head from the outset - Harris' hawks are no smarter than other large hawks. Harris' hawks, redtails, goshawks, and the large falcons are all very equal in intelligence.

Harris' hawks do appear to be smart because they are pack animals, and do a lot more cooperative hunting than the other large hawks and falcons. They spend a lot of mental energy trying to figure out what it is that you want. Since they are thinking about what you want them to think about, they seem much smarter.

Redtails on the other hand, are busy thinking about what THEY want. Goshawks even more so. As an extreme example of this, I have seen people who were trained by their goshawks to do some rather incredible things. One friend of mine was trained by his goshawk to run home and fetch a pigeon if the action got slow. Funny thing is that he was never trained to keep a pigeon in the truck when he went hunting.

If you have a Harris' hawk that gets freaked out because someone has a ponytail you have some pretty serious issues.

Well, there are Harris' hawks that have quirks. They are very easy going, but wont take it all. As an example, I know of exactly 3 individual Harris' hawks that do not hate my guts. All three owned by three of my apprentices. Even the Harris' hawk I owned and flew for 4 seasons hated my guts. I had him loaned out to a local friend, and joined him in the field once. The second I stepped out of the truck I was riding in, the hawk gave that intense hate vocalization they give to strange dogs and coyotes. He is the only Harris I have met that hates me that bad, most just make sure there is a good buffer of space between themselves and me.

Really, I don't mind. I can appreciate Harris hawks, but they don't blow my particular skirt up. I have never met a goshawk that didn't think I was their pal, and that's where my obsession lies anyway.

[dboyrollz76]

One thing to get out of your head from the outset - Harris' hawks are no smarter than other large hawks. Harris' hawks, redtails, goshawks, and the large falcons are all very equal in intelligence.

Harris' hawks do appear to be smart because they are pack animals, and do a lot more cooperative hunting than the other large hawks and falcons. They spend a lot of mental energy trying to figure out what it is that you want. Since they are thinking about what you want them to think about, they seem much smarter.

Like

[red_tailed]

another thing I would suggest is get out with other falconers. See how their birds hunt. See other birds fly, in action besides the ones at the facility you work at. I've met several people who wanted to get into falconry after or currently working at a centre that doesn't do any actual falconry. But they never stick with it or they don't stick around long because they don't want to offend or piss off the owners of the facility. when you have the chance go out and actually see how falconers handle and fly their birds.

I've done bird demos for many years and have met some birds that had strange behaviours. One falcon wouldn't eat pheasant. tough. didn't want to eat pheasant that day, then don't eat. Next day does her lure flights, still just took a few bites then just flicked the food away (bird was not sick). Third day at a lower weight, pheasant was the best thing ever. I worked with another hh that didn't like sunglasses. tough, I wore sunglasses everyday. The bird would do fly bys but wouldn't land on glove till like 10 minutes of flying around. Bird doesn't want to come to me, I walk away. A few days later and an oz or 2 lower, bird could care less if I had a monkey on my head, my glove was the best place to be cause her hunger overrid her "quirk". I never put these birds in harms way with their weight, but I wasn't going to play the birds game for simple flight demos. And don't get me wrong I still deal with fat birds from time to time. And when they act up I know that extra piece of quail is the reason why.

Bob
BC, Canada

[FredFogg]

I have flown a few HH's and everybody pretty much answered your question but I will sum it up with your own words.

When they aren't cooperating, don't feed!

[Buckeye Falconer]

When they aren't cooperating, don't feed!

Works for teenage boys too!!

[Breeze]

Works for teenage boys too!!

Geez! Wish I would have known this when raising our two!

[red_tailed]

If the bird is too low it wouldn't be doing fly bys. It just wouldn't fly. Feel the keel is it sharp or is there some meat to it. If say the birds ration is 30g of food a day and he does the fly bys thing outside, takes his time ect. Get him down and put him away for a few hrs. Try again. If he is still doing it, then reduce ration and drop him 10g. If he still acts like a jerk (male HH prone to this) after several days, drop him down another 10gs. While the border between high and too low can be thin, the keel will also give you a good reference.

Bob
BC, Canada

[redbird1]

The issue is weight control; flight weight is not a static number, it is impacted by all the variables listed - including boredom and manipulation of the falconer/trainer on the birds part.

The axiom is simple: a properly trained bird is at weight when it performs as required. Properly trained but not performing? Not at weight (for that day; for those conditions).

I will throw in another set of variables - not to complicate but to help: the bird's current weight is not the only factor that determines hunger (and performing condition) - feeding schedule and dynamic direction of weight are equally important.

1. When did the bird eat last?
An obese man who hasn't eaten in three days is still obese - but he may be fairly hungry and motivated to obtain food.

2. Is the bird's weight remaining static, moving up, or going down?
A bird whose weight is dropping is more responsive than the bird would be at the same weight if it's weight was rising (over a period of 2-3 days). Examples: A bird weighed 950g. yesterday and weighs 900g. today. Another bird weighed 850g. yesterday, but weighs 900g. today. Both birds weigh 900g., but the bird whose weight is dropping will typically be more responsive than the bird whose weight is rising (all else equal).

Finally, you must consider metabolic burn rate. Birds that are not exercised hard can stubbornly retain weight (especially in warm temps). When they are only burning 15-30g. of body weight over a 24 hr. period, they can be very difficult to motivate. Fitness training elevates the bird's metabolism, burning through calories. A 900g. bird that is fitness trained may require 120g. or more of food per day to maintain weight - even in warm weather. That bird will be much more responsive than a sedentary bird that is ingesting 30g. a day to maintain weight. Fitness training can HUGELY increase the effective weight window for a bird.

[Tasha55403]

And, to add to Mike's great post just because a bird weighs 850 grams one day and weighs 900 grams the next does NOT mean the bird gained 50 grams of muscle mass. It probably still has food in its system so your weight isn't really accurate. I don't know how many times I've heard people say their bird gained or lost huge amounts without understanding that. That's why it takes several days of increasing the weight before the bird finally ACTS fat and sassy. And several days of lowering the weight before it acts sharp. Unless you're not feeding it and you KNOW the only weight being lost is actual weight and not food in the system being passed through. This is where watching your bird's mutes comes in handy. Big, huge slices means the bird has plenty of food in its system. Small, green centered mutes mean the bird is empty and any weight loss is real.

[andy hall]

I hope things are improving for you and the bird since you wrote this. After flying a couple hundred birds for education and falconry I have a different take on it. Weight is unlikely the issue. Reducing weight is the last thing to consider in your situation. First off, check out the International Association of Avian Trainers and Educators. A great group with some very talented and educated trainers using scientifically sound beahvior and training priciples. I can give you some resources if you message me.

Most important fact here - he is not trying to outsmart you. He is simply doing what he has been taught to do. It is usually our training that is at fault, not the bird's weight, attiutude, intelligence (which is a construct). With your isssue of not returning to the fist. There are three areas in which a training problem could exist (or lilkely a combination of any of the three). The first is the message the bird is getting to fly in confusing, maybe your cues are not really conditioned that well, there are physical obstacles not present inside (things that may it their wing or tail), or other perceived dangers. This is known as the antecedent arrangement, making sure the environment is set up for the behavior to occur easily so that it can be reinforced, rather than failing and having to be punished.

It is easily plausible that being out in a tree or perch is just simply more reinforcing than being inside. In this case I often use the opportunity to go back out to a perch or tree as the reward for flying to the fist. Get a food treat and get to immediately go back out. It helps build confidence with the bird and trust with you.

Most often I see that the bird finds something punishing about flying to the glove. Hands are horrible perches, we move them a bunch without realizing it so they are unbalanced. Hold your hand perfectly stil and slowly bring them in to your body (or not if they don't like being close to you). They may hit their wing tip on our body (which is why I fly them to my hand in front of my body instead of to the side). Too often flying to the hand is the end of the fun, they get restrained and put in the box. So go back to me previous paragraph to help with that. Depending on your situation you may just train to fly to static perches and then to an exit crate. Many trainers have found much more success once the eliminate the hand from the routine.

I have inadvertenly trained some wonderful, undesirable behaviors in my time, which is why learning the science of training and behavior has been so beneficial in working with animals professionally and in falconry. But I hardly ever reduce weight. Focusing on training techniques and nuances is way more effective and ethically sound.

Good luck,
Andy Hall