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Thread: Electronic 3-186 A

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHawk View Post
    Strange,
    About a month ago I sent my paperwork to both feds and state. Got my signed receipts back about a week later, and a week after that got a letter from the feds saying that they did not track birds anymore with my paperwork and a printed excerpt from the Fed Regs that handles reporting. Wonder if I need to resend mine just in case, or if it is only a regional thing?
    That's the problem. Every region says something different. Fed's say one thing in one area, then something else in another.

    ....why doesn't this surprise me???

    Kinda like having 10 different IRS agents do your taxes. I'd bet some serious money that you'd get 10 different answers as to what you owe, or what your refund would be.
    Paul Rifle, Colorado
    A lot of birds I've flown have been smarter than a lot of people I have met.

  2. #72
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    The government pulled funding to enforce the MBTA it was turned over to the states! Just like so many other things that were turned over to the state level by the Obama administration! They set guidelines for the states to follow. But judging the health care system from state to state, those guidelines are as good as toilet paper.
    Derek

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    Quote Originally Posted by dboyrollz76 View Post
    The government pulled funding to enforce the MBTA it was turned over to the states! Just like so many other things that were turned over to the state level by the Obama administration! They set guidelines for the states to follow. But judging the health care system from state to state, those guidelines are as good as toilet paper.
    If you use those guidelines instead of toilet paper you are going to get your hands dirty.......
    Ron N1WT Vermont

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    Quote Originally Posted by dboyrollz76 View Post
    The government pulled funding to enforce the MBTA it was turned over to the states! Just like so many other things that were turned over to the state level by the Obama administration! They set guidelines for the states to follow. But judging the health care system from state to state, those guidelines are as good as toilet paper.
    Can you guide me to where you obtained the information that the government pulled funding of enforcing the MBTA and turned it over to the states?
    Fred
    "Adopt the pace of nature: her secret is patience." ~Ralph Waldo Emerson

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by dboyrollz76 View Post
    The government pulled funding to enforce the MBTA it was turned over to the states! Just like so many other things that were turned over to the state level by the Obama administration! They set guidelines for the states to follow. But judging the health care system from state to state, those guidelines are as good as toilet paper.
    Quote Originally Posted by FredFogg View Post
    Can you guide me to where you obtained the information that the government pulled funding of enforcing the MBTA and turned it over to the states?
    I suspect the situation of the feds turning falconry administration over to the states is more in line as an example of an unfunded mandate, with a bit of a twist. In essence, the states don't have to administer falconry. However, if a state chooses not to, falconry simply dissolves and goes away in that state! Remember the deadline the feds gave the states to come on board by?

    Typically, unfunded mandates concerning wildlife have historically involved states managing federally listed threatened and endangered species and paying the lion's share of managing those species while still under the federal managing framework. This has been the case for decades in the west. Example species are the grizzly and the wolf. Wyoming has literally paid out millions of dollars the past 40+ years to manage grizzlies under federal mandates with very little federal financial contributions. To add insult to injury, much of those management dollars Wyoming has spent on grizzlies came from sportsmen's dollars via licence fees.

    The grizzly met the ESA management criteria for delisting over 30 years ago. I was on Wyoming's Grizzly Bear Management Group and helped author the state's original management plan.

    Don't get me started on wolves!

    The feds delegated the administration of falconry over to the states. Pretty much the same deal. Notice I stated the administration of falconry. The feds still maintain all of the power and authority. The MBTA is an international treaty involving the cooperation of foreign governments. The states have no management authority involving international treaties.
    Dan McCarron
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  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredFogg View Post
    Can you guide me to where you obtained the information that the government pulled funding of enforcing the MBTA and turned it over to the states?
    https://www.congress.gov/amendment/1...-amendment/347 Ok so i guess it's just section 2-a they stopped enforcing.
    Derek

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    Quote Originally Posted by 460shooter View Post
    That's the problem. Every region says something different. Fed's say one thing in one area, then something else in another.

    ....why doesn't this surprise me???

    Kinda like having 10 different IRS agents do your taxes. I'd bet some serious money that you'd get 10 different answers as to what you owe, or what your refund would be.
    You are right, they are shooting from the hip. But the law they all operate from is crystal clear:

    http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1_129&rgn=div8
    50 CFR 21.29 (b) (ii):
    (2) Reporting. (i) The State, tribe, or territory must work with us to ensure that the electronic 3-186A reporting system (http://permits.fws.gov/186A) for reporting take, transfers, and loss of falconry birds is fully operational for residents of that jurisdiction.


    (ii)[This should be subsection (i), they messed up the numbering] If you are required to submit a report or other information under this section, you must either enter the required information in the electronic database at http://permits.fws.gov/186A, or at http://www.wildlife.ca.gov/FalconryReporting if you are a resident of California, or submit a paper form 3-186A to your State, tribal, or territorial agency that governs falconry.
    The trouble here is that none of them are really bothering to read it unless it comes time to persecute someone for going astray.

    There really is nothing wrong with sending in a piece of paper to the federal regional offices, and NAFA's party line recommendation that we all do this is at worst a bit of overkill. However, the feds and the state cannot REQUIRE this. The law is simply laid out. If you reside in california, use that web site mentioned in the regs. For all the rest of us, while the federal reporting system is down send the info to the State. Its is then the state's job to pass it along to the feds.

    If I was asked by a regional fed to send it to them, my response would be to politely point to the rules I just quoted and tell them that it is not my job. Its not that I am being confrontational, or obstructive. Its just that I have plenty of other things to worry about which are my responsibility and enough drains on my finances already.

    I am sure the state agencies can apply a lot more pressure to get this resolved than we can.
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
    Custom made Tail Saver Perches - http://www.myrthwood.com/TieEmHigh/

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    Quote Originally Posted by wyodjm View Post
    The MBTA is an international treaty involving the cooperation of foreign governments. The states have no management authority involving international treaties.
    Thats true, but the USFWS has taken that authority to administer that treaty and run rampant with it. There are a lot of aspects to how the USFWS regulates migratory birds that have absolutely nothing to do with the international agreements or even the congressional act ratifying those agreements.

    But I probably shouldnt get you started on that either.
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
    Custom made Tail Saver Perches - http://www.myrthwood.com/TieEmHigh/

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    Default USFWS Region 5 weighs in

    I had to send an email to region 5 and got an auto response with their official version of what you do when the electronic system is not working:



    FALCONRY: The Fish and Wildlife requires electronic reporting of take,

    loss, and transfer of falconry birds via electronic database at: https://
    migbirdapps.fws.gov/Falconry/srv/index.htm. The Service stopped issuing
    falconry permits 1/1/2014, please contact your state representative for
    assistance with falconry matters. If the site is down, mail your form to
    your state representative.


    Ron N1WT Vermont

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    Our local lady at game and fish, said She contacted USFWS to get a estimated time that the sight might be back up and running. She was told that they do not know, that it wasn't a priority! To keep sending her the paper 186-a.
    all the info and talk seems to point to the fact that they are no longer enforcing falconry regulation.
    Derek

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    Quote Originally Posted by dboyrollz76 View Post
    Our local lady at game and fish, said She contacted USFWS to get a estimated time that the sight might be back up and running. She was told that they do not know, that it wasn't a priority! To keep sending her the paper 186-a.
    all the info and talk seems to point to the fact that they are no longer enforcing falconry regulation.
    That is interesting. I know a state at this moment that has all of the mechanisms in place to allow falconers to trap eagles in documented livestock depredation areas and the USFWS is blocking the state from administering the program!
    Dan McCarron
    John 3: 16

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    Quote Originally Posted by wyodjm View Post
    That is interesting. I know a state at this moment that has all of the mechanisms in place to allow falconers to trap eagles in documented livestock depredation areas and the USFWS is blocking the state from administering the program!
    That's eagles I hear they are still working that issue out. Also here they may dump on eagle wild take all together.
    Derek

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    I got this email back a few weeks ago:

    Thompson, Jerry <jerry_e_thompson@fws.gov>
    Jul 26

    to me
    Hi Mark,

    We anticipate the site to be back in operation around the end of August.

    Jerry E Thompson
    National Migratory Bird Permit Coordinator
    US Fish and Wildlife Service
    5275 Leesburg Pike, MS:MB
    Falls Church, VA, 22041-3803
    Phone 703-358-2016
    -Mark A.

  14. #84
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    Don’t hold your breath!
    Fred
    "Adopt the pace of nature: her secret is patience." ~Ralph Waldo Emerson

  15. #85
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    I tried to log in a couple of weeks ago, couldn't find the book I had my info wrote in. So I emailed our state falconry coordinator to get my Federal ID number if she had it. She told me not to worry about it that USFWS has no plans to restore the sight! That I should just continue to send my form to her.
    Derek

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    Seems like their site has problems on a semi-regular basis.
    Deb Davis
    All Things to Make a Person Happy are Here . . . No Matter Where You Are.

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    Any updates on this topic?
    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdrmd View Post
    Any updates on this topic?
    The beta version is up and running, I didn't have issues with it, but others did...
    Paul Domski
    New Mexico, USA

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    wow.... took em 2 years to fix that and its still not fully functional. Did they have to go to school to learn that level of incompetence? As an IT guy, if this project took me longer than a quarter I would be looking for work. And that is building from scratch!
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
    Custom made Tail Saver Perches - http://www.myrthwood.com/TieEmHigh/

  20. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by goshawkr View Post
    wow.... took em 2 years to fix that and its still not fully functional. Did they have to go to school to learn that level of incompetence? As an IT guy, if this project took me longer than a quarter I would be looking for work. And that is building from scratch!
    Never worked for the federal government before eh Geoff? Two years is nothing on the government time line, you should see how fast things move in the world nuclear waste, we're talking decades (plural).
    Paul Domski
    New Mexico, USA

  21. #91
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    Paul,
    Do you have a link? Google search directs to a dead link.
    Thanks
    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saluqi View Post
    Never worked for the federal government before eh Geoff? Two years is nothing on the government time line, you should see how fast things move in the world nuclear waste, we're talking decades (plural).
    I am not cut out for it. I have a lot of family that are career beurocrats, but I would end up flipping out and shooting up an office out of frustration. I could have built this system myself 4 times over by now, and that would even include a bunch of time with nose in books learning about how some of the underlying tech talked to each other.
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
    Custom made Tail Saver Perches - http://www.myrthwood.com/TieEmHigh/

  23. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saluqi View Post
    Never worked for the federal government before eh Geoff? Two years is nothing on the government time line, you should see how fast things move in the world nuclear waste, we're talking decades (plural).
    Hi Paul:

    Mentioning slow government time lines, decades and nuclear waste in the same sentence somehow isn't very comforting!

    Hope the molt is going well.

    All my best.
    Last edited by wyodjm; 07-09-2018 at 06:46 PM.
    Dan McCarron
    John 3: 16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saluqi View Post
    Never worked for the federal government before eh Geoff? Two years is nothing on the government time line, you should see how fast things move in the world nuclear waste, we're talking decades (plural).
    It is probably not safe to drive really fast with nuclear waste.....
    Ron N1WT Vermont

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    Anybody have the link to the system? Like John I get a 404 error message when I try to find the site.

    Paul

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    Paul

    Here I t link I used https://epermits.fws.gov/falcP

    Wayne
    Wayne

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    Thank you Wayne.

    Paul

  28. #98
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    I would think we just continue to submit a paper 3-186 A to our state falconry administrator, until directed to do otherwise by the state. They are the administrator, not the feds!
    Dan McCarron
    John 3: 16

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    Thanks Wayne!!!
    John

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    I was advised by our state administrator that I am required to also send a copy of the form to the feds in Atlanta. I don't know where there requirement comes from and why they can't communicate, but there it is.
    Matt

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    Quote Originally Posted by kellerbomb View Post
    I was advised by our state administrator that I am required to also send a copy of the form to the feds in Atlanta. I don't know where there requirement comes from and why they can't communicate, but there it is.
    That surprises you? USFWS CITES would not even accept a 3-186 as proof of ownership for crossing the border.
    Ron N1WT Vermont

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    Quote Originally Posted by kellerbomb View Post
    I was advised by our state administrator that I am required to also send a copy of the form to the feds in Atlanta. I don't know where there requirement comes from and why they can't communicate, but there it is.
    Matt,

    Your state adminsitratior is flat wrong.

    The new federal regulations prohibit falconers from submitting 3-186a forms to the feds directly.
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
    Custom made Tail Saver Perches - http://www.myrthwood.com/TieEmHigh/

  33. #103
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    The Federal site is up and I was directed by my state coordinator to use it....here is the link,
    https://epermits.fws.gov/falcP/




    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by goshawkr View Post
    Matt,

    Your state adminsitratior is flat wrong.

    The new federal regulations prohibit falconers from submitting 3-186a forms to the feds directly.
    That's interesting Geoff, maybe I should be prepared to be hauled off to the pokey as I've been submitting my 3-186a forms in hard copy directly to the Feds like always. My electronic form never has worked, so I quit even trying years ago.
    Ray Gilbertson-Montana

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    Quote Originally Posted by falcon56 View Post
    That's interesting Geoff, maybe I should be prepared to be hauled off to the pokey as I've been submitting my 3-186a forms in hard copy directly to the Feds like always. My electronic form never has worked, so I quit even trying years ago.
    Hmmmmmm....

    The wording changed since last I looked. It used to explicitly prohibit paper being sent to the feds - effectively making it the job of the State Agencies to inform file the paperwork with the feds in a clear strong arm attempt to make sure that the states are compatible with the federal database system. Irronic since the feds were not cabable of keeping that system up for the last three years.

    Anyway, here is the current wording:

    (ii) If you are required to submit a report or other information under this section, you must either enter the required information in the electronic database at http://permits.fws.gov/186A, or at http://www.wildlife.ca.gov/FalconryReporting if you are a resident of California, or submit a paper form 3-186A to your State, tribal, or territorial agency that governs falconry.

    The federal link there does not work....
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
    Custom made Tail Saver Perches - http://www.myrthwood.com/TieEmHigh/

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