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Thread: Electronic 3-186 A

  1. #1
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    Default Electronic 3-186 A

    The website is down, our state falconry coordinator sent this to me today:

    Hi Paul,

    Iím not sure if you heard or not, but the website is down for falconers to fill out the 3-186A forms. Jerry from USFWS sent me the below email.
    If you could help spread the word I would appreciate it. J



    Hi Monique,

    The website will be down for an unknown length of time. In the meantime I suggest you have him fill out the .pdf form. He can access it here: https://www.fws.gov/forms/3-186a.pdf

    He should send you a copy and also one to me at the address below. Once we have the site back up and running, we can enter the data at that time.

    Sorry for the inconvenience,

    Best regards,


    Jerry E Thompson
    National Migratory Bird Permit Coordinator
    US Fish and Wildlife Service


    Thanks,
    Monique White
    Paul Domski
    New Mexico, USA

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    I called the New Mexico office about it and was told to send it to my state office and not to them,because it would just sit on someones desk. I called the Texas Parks and wildlife office and was told not to send it to them,just wait until the site is back up. I did fill out a 3-186A for my records
    Comeaux
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    I wouldn't wait for the web site to come back up. You only have 10 days from the date of the transfer to file it, and there is nothing in the law giving you an extension if their sight is down. If the bird is going on a falconry permit mail it to your state, not the feds.

    (6) Acquisition, transfer, loss, or rebanding of a raptor. (i) If you acquire a raptor; transfer, reband, or microchip a raptor; if a raptor you possess is stolen; if you lose a raptor to the wild and you do not recover it within 30 days; or if a bird you possess for falconry dies; you must report the change within 10 days by entering the required information in the electronic database at http://permits.fws.gov/186A or by submitting a paper form 3-186A to your State, tribal, or territorial agency that governs falconry.
    Steve Jones - http://www.americanfalconry.com/
    What is best in life? "The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Jones View Post
    I wouldn't wait for the web site to come back up. You only have 10 days from the date of the transfer to file it, and there is nothing in the law giving you an extension if their sight is down. If the bird is going on a falconry permit mail it to your state, not the feds.
    Couldn't agree more and my suggestion would be to go one step further and send it certified mail with a return receipt requested!

  5. #5
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    Here in Georgia you register with the feds online and then email a copy of the 3-186a to the state. At least that is how it was done last year.
    John

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    "Called USFWS today about registering the falcon. I asked if I should mail in or fax the 3186-a to my local office. They said not to do either one and that as long as I have notified my state game and fish office, I was legal until USFWS gets the system up again."

    That was posted on a Facebook group I follow on the 11th.
    Gregory E. Miller
    "Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, offer no apologies." - Teddy Moritz/Unknown Origin

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    Quote Originally Posted by gemiller View Post
    "Called USFWS today about registering the falcon. I asked if I should mail in or fax the 3186-a to my local office. They said not to do either one and that as long as I have notified my state game and fish office, I was legal until USFWS gets the system up again."
    The law states you have to file it within 10 days of the transfer. The USF&WS can not give you permission to break the law. All that essentially happened is that one person gave you a verbal notice that they would not prosecute you for breaking the law. Do you trust your future to that person's word? The only way to guarantee you won't be prosecuted is by not breaking the law, and the only way to do that, with the site down, is mail the paper form to your state.
    Steve Jones - http://www.americanfalconry.com/
    What is best in life? "The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair."

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    Quote Originally Posted by joekoz View Post
    Couldn't agree more and my suggestion would be to go one step further and send it certified mail with a return receipt requested!
    That's EXACTLY what I'm doing. Not taking ANY chances on this. I don't give a rats ass if it sits on a Fed's desk. Not my problem. I mailed it in, I have proof they got it, not my concern what they do with it from then on. If I get "audited" 5 years from now, and they ask why they don't have paperwork for my bird, I doubt that a response of "Well, your computer system was down." is going to be acceptable. NO WAY I'm leaving this one to chance.
    Paul Rifle, Colorado
    A lot of birds I've flown have been smarter than a lot of people I have met.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Jones View Post
    The law states you have to file it within 10 days of the transfer. The USF&WS can not give you permission to break the law. All that essentially happened is that one person gave you a verbal notice that they would not prosecute you for breaking the law. Do you trust your future to that person's word? The only way to guarantee you won't be prosecuted is by not breaking the law, and the only way to do that, with the site down, is mail the paper form to your state.

    And what about the states the digital format is the appropriate method? Our state's instructions mailed to us last year specifically state to do it on the USFWS website then to mail a copy of the submittal page after you submit it to the special permits office.

    So regardless, it's not possible to be compliant if the site doesn't work with my state.

    Anyhow, it has nothing to do with me if you read what I said. Just copying a post I had seen go up about the topic, nothing more.

    "Am I required to submit a 3-186A online?
    Yes, regulations require online submission of a 3-186A. If the site is down or computer error prevents the 3-186A from being submitted online we do allow for submission via email or postal mail."
    That was directly pulled from a Online 3-186a System FAQ document I found.
    Gregory E. Miller
    "Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, offer no apologies." - Teddy Moritz/Unknown Origin

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gemiller View Post
    And what about the states the digital format is the appropriate method? Our state's instructions mailed to us last year specifically state to do it on the USFWS website then to mail a copy of the submittal page after you submit it to the special permits office.
    Those are the exact instructions I received here in Georgia except the woman at the special permits office requested an email copy sent to her. She replied to my email with a confirmation of receipt.
    John

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    I am the one that called USFWS office in Albuquerque and ask them if I should mail in the 3186-a or fax it to them.They said not to do either one and told me to send a copy of my 3186-a to my local game and fish office which I did. My state has all the evidence that is required for me to be legal. My state is the one that is issuing the band and I ask the USFWS if I was legal. He told me that I was completely legal. I talked to my state representative and informed her of the conversation and she told me to fax her a copy of the 3186-a to make sure we were covered. Personally, in my opinion there is nothing the Feds could do to make me look wrong on this issue.
    Jim
    New Mexican

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    I believe at this point, it is one of those things where ya "do what you feel comfortable with". I first ran into falconry when I was 8 years old, and it was a lifelong dream to practice falconry. Now that I have my license and am able to practice this sport, there is NO WAY that I could leave this situation up to a "he said she said" type of scenario down the road. But that's just me. I guess I just don't trust people very easily, and want to make sure I cover my own butt.
    Paul Rifle, Colorado
    A lot of birds I've flown have been smarter than a lot of people I have met.

  13. #13
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    so te site is down nation wide?
    Rich in Illinois....
    "Man has emerged from the shadows of antiquity with a Peregrine on his wrist......."

  14. #14
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    Rich, yes and they have no idea when it will be up and running. With the documentation I have done with my state and contacting USFWS and following their instructions, there is not a court in the land that would back any legal action that USFWS would pursue on this issue. Its going to be a mess for a while because this is the time of year that people acquire birds from the wild as well as purchasing birds from breeders. I tried for several days with no luck before I contacted my state office and was told the system was down. Tomorrow is the 10th day since I got the peregrine.
    Jim
    New Mexican

  15. #15
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    thanks Jim
    Rich in Illinois....
    "Man has emerged from the shadows of antiquity with a Peregrine on his wrist......."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Jones View Post
    I wouldn't wait for the web site to come back up. You only have 10 days from the date of the transfer to file it, and there is nothing in the law giving you an extension if their sight is down. If the bird is going on a falconry permit mail it to your state, not the feds.
    Actually, there is.

    The USFWS are not allowed to cite you if you make all reasonable efforts to fulfill your paperwork requirements and they are not able to accept them. This is not codified in the falconry regulations, but its there in the general laws that they have to abide by. Asking you to print out and mail in a 3-186a would definitely count as a reasonable efforts during a server outage though. And actually, they are not allowed to cite you over petty minor administrative oversights either - like filing a 3-186a on day 11 instead of on day 10 (I don't suggest that anyone pushes their luck with that one BTW).

    Not that this will absolutely stop some of the @#$E%%#@ fish cops from trying mind you, but it wont stick to anything if they do. Of course, the reasonable folks in USFWS would understand any delay do to the site being down.

    Ultimately, as licensed falconers, our responsibility is to get the data to the state. And the states are required to then get the data to the feds. So the suggestion to send paper to both the state and USFWS has no legal backing. Not that it hurts to be nice if you want to. But my answer to a USFWS agent asking me to mail them a copy during their server outage would be to politely refuse, and direct them to my state office.

    Whatever anyone decides to do during the outage - keep a record of it in case you are hauled in front of a hearing magistrate or a judge over it. If you are following the advice of your state official, get it in writing with their signature (or their email) if possible.
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
    Custom made Tail Saver Perches - http://www.myrthwood.com/TieEmHigh/

  17. #17
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    USFWS appears to be loosing their grip. they are having a personal issue. They no longer have a director to run the site.
    Derek

  18. #18
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    I can't see any harm in filling out the form manually and mailing it in... (like we've been doing for many many years)! BUT... on the other hand, if you decide not to file anything and just wait until the system comes back online, well, as others said I think there's some potential risk for you. And the printable PDF 3-186a form on the Federal website is the approved format and contains the same information as the web version, I can't quite go along with an argument not to use that because of some state specific language around the process of using the new web/online system.
    -Ken
    (Maryland/Pennsylvania)

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken S. View Post
    I can't see any harm in filling out the form manually and mailing it in... (like we've been doing for many many years)! BUT... on the other hand, if you decide not to file anything and just wait until the system comes back online, well, as others said I think there's some potential risk for you. And the printable PDF 3-186a form on the Federal website is the approved format and contains the same information as the web version, I can't quite go along with an argument not to use that because of some state specific language around the process of using the new web/online system.
    I agree. I'd include a very short, dated cover letter to document why you're mailing in the form. And, as someone suggested, when mailing in the form to your state and regional federal office always send it registered mail, return receipt. Save the postal documentation. Cover your bases and cover yourself.

    When filing falconry related paperwork, never leave anything to chance. Always protect yourself with dated paperwork and never rely on a phone conversation. There's simply no documentation.

    This should be no big deal.
    Dan McCarron
    John 3: 16

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    Geoff, can you link me to something that discusses the general laws you say limit USFWS? Or the laws themselves? I haven't heard of these, and would like to know more.
    ___/.6"\
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    Obviously people can't read. I stated that I called my USFWS office and they said not to send in the form or not to fax it.
    Jim
    New Mexican

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    Quote Originally Posted by raptrlvr View Post
    Obviously people can't read. I stated that I called my USFWS office and they said not to send in the form or not to fax it.
    Hi Jim:

    I hope you weren't referring to me.

    There are 8 FWS regional offices scattered throughout the country, 9 if you include the Washington D.C. office. As you may be aware of, each of the regional offices acts and functions as if they were a separate country! This is no exaggeration. There is plenty of current and historical documentation to support this.

    I suggest that what the Albuquerque office (Region 2) says may not fly in the regional offices in Atlanta, Denver or D.C., or vice versa. Each regional office has their own interpretation. That's just been my experience over the years. And furthermore, the feds have kept their administrative authority over eagles. If I was going to transfer an eagle held under the authority of a falconry permit to another person, I would, without hesitation, send a copy of the form to the feds in addition to my state. Within the 10 day time frame.

    But, here's my qualifier: I would do this because the federal electronic site was down and I was being prevented from filing electronically. And as I suggested earlier, I don't rely a whole lot on undocumented telephone conversations. But that's just me. It's polite and you're not getting in anyone's face. You're just filing paperwork to cover your tracks.

    All my best.
    Dan McCarron
    John 3: 16

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    Quote Originally Posted by wyodjm View Post
    ... I don't rely a whole lot on undocumented telephone conversations. But that's just me.
    They make free call recording apps.
    ___/.6"\
    __(-~\:"\
    Chesley K.

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    Dan, I was just venting for the moment. Sorry if anyone took it personally. But, right after that, I printed out the 3186-a form that I already had saved and ran down to the Post Office and sent it in certified return receipt. Now there is no way anyone can say they weren't notified in one way or another. Thanks everyone for the advice. Now this peregrine has so much paper work, it won't be able to fly.
    Jim
    New Mexican

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icantmove View Post
    Geoff, can you link me to something that discusses the general laws you say limit USFWS? Or the laws themselves? I haven't heard of these, and would like to know more.
    Love to Chesley,

    Unfortunately, the general laws are very complex. Thats why there is a huge industry, the law profession, to understand them. And the lawyers seem very adept at making sure there is plenty of reason for them to continue to have a job.

    And to be crystal clear, I am no lawyer. But my response earlier in the thread was summing up what I have been told by lawyers over similar issues.

    One place that I would recommend starting is to review the general permit provisions that apply to all USFWS permits in 50 CFR 13: http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...13_main_02.tpl
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
    Custom made Tail Saver Perches - http://www.myrthwood.com/TieEmHigh/

  26. #26
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    So not wanting to be that guy. But..... What if.... In the words of general Ackbar "it's a trap"


    Star Wars for those of you who didn't know

    Isn't this the time of year when breeders and falconers are having to report a large number of birds moving around. And then the system is down? Just saying
    Jordan Turner.(cooler than a polar bears toe nails)

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by raptrlvr View Post
    Dan, I was just venting for the moment. Sorry if anyone took it personally. But, right after that, I printed out the 3186-a form that I already had saved and ran down to the Post Office and sent it in certified return receipt. Now there is no way anyone can say they weren't notified in one way or another. Thanks everyone for the advice. Now this peregrine has so much paper work, it won't be able to fly.
    No worries Jim. I understand. I'm picking up a new female anatum peregrine in Idaho in August. On my way to Idaho, I'm going to spend a week fly fishing in Wyoming. Life is good, no? In spite of the federal electronic filing system being down!

    Have fun with that peregrine.

    All my best.
    Dan McCarron
    John 3: 16

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    Thanks Dan. I told myself that this will be my last peregrine. We don't really have the ducks unless we have a really good monsoon season and so far this year we have not had the rains. After this peregrine, I will stick with hawks and my eagle and concentrate on ground game. Wish I was going fishing with you.
    Jim
    New Mexican

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by raptrlvr View Post
    Now there is no way anyone can say they weren't notified in one way or another.
    You are kidding, right? USFWS won't be able to say that? The same people who asked me how my falconry bird could get across the Canadian border if I don't bring it there in my vehicle?

    They can and may say that they were not notified but you were smart enough to meet the burden of proof.
    Ron N1WT Vermont

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    Quote Originally Posted by xjturnerx View Post
    So not wanting to be that guy. But..... What if.... In the words of general Ackbar "it's a trap"


    Star Wars for those of you who didn't know

    Isn't this the time of year when breeders and falconers are having to report a large number of birds moving around. And then the system is down? Just saying
    Are you by any chance one of those people who believe that the moon landings were staged in a Hollywood sound studio and never actually happened?

    Remember: Just because you are paranoid does not mean that they are not out to get you.
    Ron N1WT Vermont

  31. #31
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    I'm just saying. No matter what the states say. Send in a paper copy. Takes a little more work but the online shit is new so it's not like y'all haven't done it before. Hate to have to tell anyone I told you so. But I will get some joy out of doing so
    Jordan Turner.(cooler than a polar bears toe nails)

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    Quote Originally Posted by xjturnerx View Post
    I'm just saying. No matter what the states say. Send in a paper copy. Takes a little more work but the online shit is new so it's not like y'all haven't done it before. Hate to have to tell anyone I told you so. But I will get some joy out of doing so
    Don't worry Jordan. If anyone DOES get busted down the road because they didn't fill out the paper form and send it in, after this thread, said person will NEVER admit to it! Some may be willing to take the chance, but there is no way in hell it'll be me. I've seen DOW officers that didn't even know falconry was "a thing". They had to call my license in to their supervisor because they thought I just made up a license to bluff my way out of having an "illegal hawk in my possession". No way I'm taking a chance with those kind of people enforcing the regs.
    Paul Rifle, Colorado
    A lot of birds I've flown have been smarter than a lot of people I have met.

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    So, sending a paper copy is better than sending an email copy with a confirmation email from the recipient? I can see wanting to send it certified mail but I just don't see how that is better than sending it via email with confirmation. Much easier for everyone involved...

    Maybe I should get my chisel out, make a stone tablet and send it to the state officials
    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdrmd View Post
    So, sending a paper copy is better than sending an email copy with a confirmation email from the recipient? I can see wanting to send it certified mail but I just don't see how that is better than sending it via email with confirmation. Much easier for everyone involved...

    Maybe I should get my chisel out, make a stone tablet and send it to the state officials
    Hey John. Sorry, I didn't mean my post to be directly to, or about, you if you took it that way. It was just about people in general that decide not to do anything. I agree with you that an email, with a confirmation email in return, would suffice just as well as a certified letter. In all reality, the email isn't a bad idea because then you have proof of what was in the email. Certified letter receipt just shows you sent "something" to them.

    Although the chisel and stone tablet might not be bad idea either, as long as you sign it in blood!
    Paul Rifle, Colorado
    A lot of birds I've flown have been smarter than a lot of people I have met.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 460shooter View Post
    Although the chisel and stone tablet might not be bad idea either, as long as you sign it in blood!
    John

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