One disaster caused by imprint

[threetoe]

I was worried that this "Misprint" RT of mine would never take anything.
Lately she's been absolutely CRUSHING game with wreckless abandon.

Yesterday I experienced just why so many say that an Imprint is fearless and a natural born killer.

THIS BIRD IS FREEKING DANGEROUS!!

She tail chased a couple big Jacks on Saturday but didn't connect. I called her to the glove, hooded her up and gave her just enough to keep her on weight for Sunday morning.

She was 5 grams lower Sunday morning and we took her up to the high desert for Jacks. The wind was howling up there (flags standing straight out) and I tried to fly her but she just sat in the tree. I called her to the glove and took her back to the hills I normally fly. (no wind)

These hills overlook a large Golf club surrounded by beautiful homes. She chased a couple Bunnies but only got fur.

I was moments away from calling her to the lure and calling it a weekend when I noticed her bobbing her head. She busted off the rock outcropping and went into a tear drop. She was on something.

She went around the hill so we couldn't see where she went. We took off running but when we got there she was nowhere to be found.
I pulled out my receiver and found her down deep inside several HUGE rocks. (boulders).
My sweetheart screamed, "She got a bunny".
I looked down and saw it.

She had someone's cat.

With my gloved hand I reached way down inside and barely grabbed the cats tail.
I extracted both and put them down on the grass. THE CAT WAS HUGE. 15-17 pounds, lean and mean.
Sugar had both feet wrapped around it's head and the cat had Sugars face and beak inside it's mouth.
There was blood all over and evidence of an epic struggle.
I pulled my big blue towel and covered the already dead cat's body, I put my glove over it's head and then pulled the lure to trade the RT off.

This was not cool.
The cat was not a stray. It was a housecat playing.

I feel like c rap.

I got the bird home and washed her down with a spray bottle. I did not see any injuries. She was drooping her right wing.
I'll check again tonight.

I have trained a killer.

I hope it was a bad enough experience that she'll never do that again.

[Squirrelhawkin]

Cat scratches and bites are nothing to fool around with,I'd get her to the vet for some antibiotics. Nick

[sevristh]

As Nick said, you need to get her seen immediately. Her face will most likely be swollen by this time tomorrow if it isn't already. If you want to see what happens to a bite left untreated, scroll to the bottom of this page: http://www.mindspring.com/~uke/mew_progress/mew.html

That being said, attacking a cat is not necessarily imprint like behavior. My female was jumped by a cat while on a squirrel, and bit on the foot, and she still bated toward cats that were running away from us. It's furry and running, might as well kill it....

As far as feeling bad, it's not like it was a dog or anything USEFUL, LOL!

[Jimmy]

Get her on antibiotics immediately, or she may be dead in a day or two.......

[tony123abc]

I had a passage that killed a cat that walked by her perch. She killed it and ate it, but she was screwed for about 6 weeks. Cats aint no messing around animal. I hope your bird does okay. tony

[Fawkes]

I don't think chasing and catching cats has anything to do with the bird being an imprint - I had a Harris that caught a cat once, luckly both escaped unscathed from the incident. Actually it was her first catch. They are bunny/jack sized and they run - what more does the hawk want?

Hope your bird is OK in the end! Did the cat make it?
Emily

[frootdog]

I'll be the broken record and say the bird needs antibiotics ASAP.

As far as the imprint thing, it has nothing to do with it. My passage RT killed every cat she saw in the field. Mine were all clearly feral as she never caught one near a residential area. The way I look at it is this, most every place now that has dog leash laws also have cat leash laws (believ it or not). Roaming cats cause so much damage to the environment, not to mention thier lifespan (if it is a pet) is significantly shorter 3 years average vs. 13 for an indoor only cat. If you let your cat go outside it's at your own risk. I own cats and they are indoors only. I never liked it when my birds caught a cat, but that's life. And at risk of sounding like a broken record again. At the Vernal, UT NAFA meet the biggest round of applause for the night was when it was announce that some lady had caught a cat with her passage RT for a misc pin. She got a standing ovation!

[goshawks00]

I'm all in for a cat leash law!! At least in the city. You are right in thinking it's not an imprint thing, though I think an imprint will try and kill most everything it can... There was a thread on IFF about an imprint eagle that attacked a severely wounded a woman in Thialand, it probably would have killed her it the falconer didn't rescue her..

ditto on the antibiotics
Barry

[outhawkn]

I think a cat killing hawk is worth its weight in gold...........

[voslerdo]

I had a passage rt that killed two cats (feral). Also, one time, I was coming home from an unsuccessful hunt in my woods. My wife called to me as she saw me come towards the house to see if I was done hunting. If I wasn't, she wanted to get her yorkshire terrier inside. If I was, she would leave her out (because she liked to chase and bark at squirrels). I told her I was done, but when I got to the mew, I saw the yorkie had a squirrel treed. I cast my bird to the tree, but the squirrel stood perfectly still and he didn't see it. I decided to hit the side of the tree with a branch I found on the ground to see if I could get it to move. When I smacked the tree, it scared the dog and as she ran away, my rt hit and bound to her hard! I had to grab ahold of the rt's head and squeeze it to make him let go (a trick I had learned at one time or another). I put the hawk in the mew and took the dog (who couldn't walk) in to my wife so she could call the vet. Needless to say, she was pissed! This was her "baby". The vet diagnosed a bruised spinal cord and several punture wounds, but felt the dog would be all right if the swelling subsided. I got an "around the clock report" that whole night. She couldn't walk for two days. They were LONG days! Of all the dumb things I've this is the one thing she holds a grudge for. I learned a valuable lesson...

[jfseaman]

I think a cat killing hawk is worth its weight in gold...........

I might be considered heartless but a house cat left to wander uncontrolled has to survive wild predator attacks so whats the difference.

Plus IMO cat's need the same controls as dogs. Licensed in the same places as dogs, vaccinated and under control, not left to wander and kill indiscriminately. House cats don't eat what they kill and it's a waste. House cats are responsible for the most near attacks on my hawks and falcons.

Don't get me wrong, I love all animals. I've had cats and have very fond memories of them. If I go to a friends house who keeps cats they seem to find me, even the ones that the owners say are not that friendly.

Don't feel bad for long and go find some more jacks.

[threetoe]

UPDATE:

I checked her yesterday evening when I got home from work.

She has damage to her beak (left side) and a scratch on the top of her CERE.
I see nothing else.
She was not drooping her wing.
I fed her up about 150 frams of rabbit.

I'll get her an antibiotic shot this afternoon.

She appears fine.

The Cat did not make it however. The RT kicked that monsters butt.

[Jimmy]

One shot won't cut it.......

[threetoe]

Her right eye is shut.

I HATE WORKING FULL TIME!!

I leave when it's dark and get home when it's dark.
I called my sweetie and she told me the bird has her right eye shut.

DAMN

[Jimmy]

Get off the internet and get her to the vet. Posting about it can wait til later. If you can't take her, your "sweetie" needs to.

[Iamtheweasel]

As the song goes....."Cat Scratch Fever!"

[threetoe]

Update:
12/16/08 5:00 pm PST

Took the Red Tail to Dr. Scott Weldy.

They found a deep cut on the top of her cere and a cracked beak. The doctors hope the crack doesn't cause deformation of the new material as her beak grows. If the crack lengthens we'll need to drill it to stop it but the doctors think it should be fine. I'm to watch it closely.

She's on Baytril for 10 days. 2 shots a day, IM into the breast muscle. 0.075cc

She's on the D/L for at least two weeks.

And right after she started smacking game. frus

Hopefully we'll be ready for the CHC meet in mid January.

Thanks all.

She "Should" be just fine.

[Zarafia]

Baytril, yeah, drug of the month LOL. Thing is baytril has been the most frequently prescribed drug Ive ever know with birds. Its always worked for me with a culture and sensitivity.
Baytril has been known to cause tissue death with injections. Quite frankly, in my opinion death of the entire bird is far worse and when you do IM injections it gets right into the bird.
I have gotten really uptight with my vet when he has insisted on oral meds. But he is just doing what he thinks is right.

Another thing on infections, I lost a red lored amazon to a raccoon attack. She survived the attack, but lost her battle with a bone infection. She had no obvious bite marks. She had one leg ripped from the socket, torn right out. But though she was on antibiotics right away she got sick from another bad bacteria. Aerobic, anaerobic, cant remember which it was. But it killed her.

Ok Ive vented now.
Good luck with your girl and I'm glad to see that my rt isnt the only one wanting to hunt and kill cats.

[threetoe]

We're not out of the water yet.
I hope she'll recover.

The doctor wants me to switch sides and locations for each injection.

[Zarafia]

Yeah, alternating injection sites will help insure no tissue necrosis.
Truthfully Ive given many batril injections to so many young birds. Myself, I never noticed any problems with it. Its also the cure for psittacosis. And you cant risk a birds digestive system shutting down sometimes.
I would definately give baytril IM to a bird in crisis. I have, and they usually live to tell.
Once you go to oral antibiotics you have to deal with natural gut flora death.
And since Ive never had a problem with it I still prefer IM baytril.
Ive recently (within the past five years) been told that hydrogen peroxide also causes tissue death. I dont really use it except to get out bloodstains, but my mom always used it on me and I dont think Ive suffered any tissue damage.

[h-bob]

Sorry to hear of your bird's infection. Cat's scare the hell out of me. My RT caught one last year, probably feral, but who knows, there were cottages near by. I was lucky as I was very close by one the catch and was able to dispatch it and trade my bird off quite quickly. Don't feel bad about it in the least, that is nature, that cat was out there killing as part of the food chain, even though it probably wasn't eating it's kills.

[frootdog]

Baytril has been known to cause tissue death with injections. Quite frankly, in my opinion death of the entire bird is far worse and when you do IM injections it gets right into the bird.
I have gotten really uptight with my vet when he has insisted on oral meds. But he is just doing what he thinks is right.

So on one hand you warn of the dangers of IM use, but then say you prefer that method, quite frankly it makes no sense.

Your vet is actually trying to tell you to do what is best and safest for the bird. Remember he did go to school for 8 years to learn how to practice medicine...so what he "thinks is right" just might be the right thing to do.

THE preferred administration of baytril in an otherwise "healthy" ie still bright and alert and eating well is to do ONE injection and then switch to orals. One IM injection is fine, but repeated injections IM greatly increases the risk. The Pectoral muscles in birds are VERY important inflight. The even safer method to give antibiotic injections is in a SQ fluid pocket. In debilitated birds you just have to bite the bullet and give injections, that is why we go with SQ fluids first and then give the injection in the fluid pocket.

Aerobic, anaerobic, cant remember which it was. But it killed her.

Baytril covers both Aerobes and Anaerobes

Yeah, alternating injection sites will help insure no tissue necrosis.

NOT true. IM injections of baytril "causes SEVERE muscle necrosis" - Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook

Once you go to oral antibiotics you have to deal with natural gut flora death.
And since Ive never had a problem with it I still prefer IM baytril.
.

Again not true. The gut flora that is affected will be affected either way. The route of administration does NOT affect the efficacy of the drug. It only affects peak levels of concentration in the blood. IV injections take effect the fastest and the drug is cleared from the body faster, IM slower, SQ slower still, and PO (oral) keeps the most steady concentrations in the body for the longest period of time.

[frootdog]

Update:
12/16/08 5:00 pm PST

She's on Baytril for 10 days. 2 shots a day, IM into the breast muscle. 0.075cc

Are you sure that is the dose? If so it is WAY too low. If they are using 22.7 mgs/ml Baytril even if it were the Large Animal Baytril 100mgs/ml the dose would be too low. However that strength should never be used in birds.

[threetoe]

UPDATE:
After two injections she appears to be feeling better. She's no longer lethargic and is acting more like her normal self.

Yes...0.075cc Baytril IM
I'm not sure of the strength. I'm just following directions.

[frootdog]

Yes...0.075cc Baytril IM
I'm not sure of the strength. I'm just following directions.

Are you drawing up the injections or are they predrawn for you? I just thought of something... there's no way to accuratly draw up 0.075. Are you sure it's not 0.75 mls? 0.75 mls would be closer to the correct dose. I would still do orals but that's just me.

[threetoe]

Day three:

She's still alive. That's a good sign.

OH..I'm drawing them up. Not much in each injection. Less than one tenth of a cc. My syringes measure that small and the needles are tiny.

I am told that the metabolism of these birds would be like ours on Nitro Methane. What takes a week for us to metabolize takes them mear hours. That's why you all emplored me to get her in IMMEDIATLY.

(Thanks Jimmy and the gang!!!)

Unlike dogs and cats who only require one injection and then orals after that, these birds metabolize the antibiotic so quickly that they want a low continuous flow.

Makes sense to me. It seems to be working and I'll not argue with positive results.
Weldy is the top Raptor vet in Southern California. He also gives UNBELIEVABLE rates (LOW) to Falconers.

[canadamanada]

In my opinion, any cat outdoors unattended is a stray/feral cat. The amount of rodents and songbirds they kill on a daily basis makes theem the single most invasive transplant species in most temperate countries.
My FHH once took a cat out at a small stream. I'd previously seen the thing hunting ducklings.

Justin

[frootdog]

Unlike dogs and cats who only require one injection and then orals after that, these birds metabolize the antibiotic so quickly that they want a low continuous flow.

.

And the best way to achieve that is oral meds.......

[tony123abc]

Good to see the bird is doing fine. Listen to your vet and all should be fine. Merry christmas, and hope ya stomp some jacks in Bakersfield.

[raptrlvr]

Dr. Weldy treated my eagle when he had Asper. That included surgery to put the meds right on the airsack. He consulted with Dr. Vicky Joseph and they saved the eagle. He is a great vet.

[threetoe]

Yea Jim
I trust him. He's one of the best.

UPDATE 12/19/08

Gave her the morning injection at 5 am.
I fed her yesterday evening so she was heavy...1270g
The temperature dropped last night to 31 degrees (f).

She was weak..very weak. I hope it was the weather.


She's fighting it. Still not out of the woods yet.

frus

[threetoe]

UPDATE 1/21/08

Day 5 on antibiotics IM.

I've been trying to bring her weight up but the cold is causing her to burn food like crazy.

The two injuries to her left foot have swolen up but otherwise she acts fine.
I will check her foot tomorrow and if it is the same or worse, I'll hood her and put her on a soft perch.

The crack in her beak seems to be stopped but I think we might need to drill it to make sure the crack doesn't continue.

I wonder if this Misprint has taken the LARGEST game for a RT this season. The cat was at least 15 and maybe 18 pounds. 6 - 7 times her weight.

WHAT A BIRD!!

[goshawks00]

I know of a couple of geese and at least one turkey taken by falconers this year, but don't know their weights.
Barry

[FredFogg]

UPDATE 1/21/08

Day 5 on antibiotics IM.

I've been trying to bring her weight up but the cold is causing her to burn food like crazy.

The two injuries to her left foot have swolen up but otherwise she acts fine.
I will check her foot tomorrow and if it is the same or worse, I'll hood her and put her on a soft perch.

The crack in her beak seems to be stopped but I think we might need to drill it to make sure the crack doesn't continue.

I wonder if this Misprint has taken the LARGEST game for a RT this season. The cat was at least 15 and maybe 18 pounds. 6 - 7 times her weight.

WHAT A BIRD!!

Are you keeping this bird inside? You shoud be until you get it in the clear. I would keep it inside the giant hood in your house.

[Ken S.]

I've heard of plenty of RT's and HH's that liked to take cats. A friend's HH has taken 2 this year already. It is dangerous for the hawk so it should be avoided for sure... but I don't think anyone should feel badly for having one less free-ranging cat out there.

Good luck to you and your hawk... I'll be hoping for a speedy recovery.

btw - you should probably lighten up on the "misprint" label... it is a hot button word (at least for me) and throwing that term around when talking to other Falconers is probably going to put up some barriers to you.