Hooding the imprint gos

[tumble]

Hooding was another issue all together. No eyas likes hooding. No hawk likes it as such, but the eyas seems to resent it way more. I did the usual hooding as a large downy all the way up to when he was almost fledged. Then he started to resent it and eventually he did not want to take it at all. I waited until he was grown and hunting before I started to re introduce it to him. Once they are down to a decent flying weight they are less resistant to hooding I think.

Jack, I'm hoping to pull my first gos from a nest to imprint this spring and I've been thinking about a hooding strategy for a while, but never with any confidence. Having read your post do you think it might be a good strategy to hold off on ANY attempts to hood until they are at "a decent flying weight" or even until after the second moult? I've enjoyed the benefits that come with hooding the redtail and would love to continue with that option with a gos when approaching, say, woodies in a forest bog. Also, what if anything haven't you tried that might be promising?

[tumble]

Of course, I'd love to hear from anybody else on this subject too.

[bgibson]

if you slip on the hood the day they are strong enough to hold it up, the bird will think the hood is part of "life" so to speak. don't strike the braces, but "place it" off and on throughout the day and it will be accustomed to the process. until the head feathers are in, i wouldn't draw it shut. it doesn't matter in the beginning if it fits properly or not because all you are doing is setting it down on the head. but my experience with trying to hood training an imprint "after the fact" has been a "negative" experience....which is what you want to avoid.

[voslerdo]

My tame hack gos was never hooded because I read the accipiter behavior problem book by McDermott and he thought it a bad idea. The problem I've run into is that the bird resents being casted so much that it takes a couple days now for him to forgive me. If he were made to the hood, I could do it much easier I think. I also think hooding in the field has a few advantages if you have to walk very far to a hunting area.
On the other hand, because I've never hooded him, he has had to get used to so many things I would have had him avoid by hooding him. I think this may be one of the reasons he is so calm on the glove. I'm still quite torn.
My recipe bird several years ago was so high strung that I had to hood him. I did it by conditioning him to my hand first to petting him until I had finally accostomed him to petting his head (which I did with a hooding motion). I fed tidbits from the hood during jump ups and he finally overcame his fear of the hood. I don't think he ever liked it, and maybe some of his aggressive behavior was misplaced aggression from hooding. I doubt that a little, because I think most of his problem was being too low in weight.
At any rate, I will wait until next season if I hood at all.

[bgibson]

my friends will attest that flying my old gos was a production to say the least. they'd say stuff like, oh hell, ben's getting the gos out ...you stand on one foot and i'll hold my left ear and close my right eye and eat two red jellybeans! the point is imprint the bird correctly and include hood training EARLY ON! you will be glad you did. imprints resent negative experiences and the best thing is to avoid them at all cost. if trying to hood train an older gos pisses him off, don't do it. they are finicky and anyone who's flown one can tell you, when you pick him up in the mews to go hunting and he's acting funny, LEAVE HIM THERE and go tomorrow. but the one footers,ear holders, and jellybean eaters WILL attest to is that a gos is BADASS and usually leave them with their mouths hangin open!

[Saluqi]

Hi Tom,

Since it's your first experience imprinting, don't even bother hood training. The thing you want the most from your bird is to be non-aggressive and non-fearful of you, your dogs, and other people, then you want to the bird to be able to hunt fearlessly in the presence highway noise, trains, and diesel engines. Screwing around with the hood is the best and easiest way to create bad blood between you and the bird and ruin the primary goals you have set.

If you are bound and determined to hood your bird, then I'll take the opposite stance from Ben, don't bother introducing the hood until well into the fall of the first season. I believe that plenty of folks who imprint gosses create a successful imprint by starting them as downies as Ben described, but look at how many folks end up with freaks by doing the same approach. The reason they end up with freaks, I'd say it has a lot to do with the individual birds personality - some birds are just naturally more high strung, as well as the falconers innate ability (or lack thereof) to read the hawks behavior and to know when NOT to hood.

I used the downie approach with my tiercel, who's 6 1/2 years old. He hooded great up until around October of that first fall, then it all fell apart - dispersal, increased fear and finally aggression to the hand that hooded him. He rides in a box now, and is the most awesome bird I can ever hope to own (he caught two quail yesterday!!) . With Frieda, I listened to my goshawk mentor, Steve Layman, and never showed her a hood until November or December of her first season. I used some of Steve's methods and Jim Nelson's methods for hood training and now Frieda hoods well - not perfect - but I can hood her in 10 to 20 seconds without a bate. She doesn't resent me for it and I can handle her very easily. There's my opinion, for what's it's worth.....

[Bryant Tarr]

If you are bound and determined to hood your bird, then I'll take the opposite stance from Ben, don't bother introducing the hood until well into the fall of the first season.

I agree with Paul. Although it is certainly possible to hood right from the start and just keep at it...that can create problems later. Same thing happened with my female gos. Hooded consistently from downy stage but started resenting it after penning. She was still hoodable, but it became a struggle. He second season saw many hanging bates to get the hood on...not something I would recommend, but this individual bird did not seem to hold a grudge and got over it very quickly so I kept at it.

If I do it again, I'm going to try to introduce the hood later. You may have to walk backward toward those bog woodies for a while

[bgibson]

if you don't hood, here's a perch design (by lance morrow) for your giant hood that will keep your tail in good shape. i used it with my gos for 5 seasons and never broke a feather.[IMG][/IMG]

[Saluqi]

Interesting perch design. I tried a block type perch in the giant hood I used with Frieda last season, but only for a week, because she would just jump to the floor of the GH and bust her feathers on the block - royal pain. I finally switched to a shelf type of arrangment which works pretty well.

[bgibson]

Interesting perch design. I tried a block type perch in the giant hood I used with Frieda last season, but only for a week, because she would just jump to the floor of the GH and bust her feathers on the block - royal pain. I finally switched to a shelf type of arrangment which works pretty well.

here's the whole shootin' match
[IMG][/IMG]

[bgibson]

Interesting perch design. I tried a block type perch in the giant hood I used with Frieda last season, but only for a week, because she would just jump to the floor of the GH and bust her feathers on the block - royal pain. I finally switched to a shelf type of arrangment which works pretty well.

i have this box at the house. when i go to lunch in a few, i'll pop off a couple of pics for you. it makes all the difference in the world in keeping the bird from banging around inside the box tearing himself up.

[Saluqi]

i have this box at the house. when i go to lunch in a few, i'll pop off a couple of pics for you. it makes all the difference in the world in keeping the bird from banging around inside the box tearing himself up.

Thanks I'd like to see it. I'm using a cylindrical sonotube for a box, which is alright but I'm going to make a new box at the end of the season. I'm planning on a PVC one like Chris Lynn uses, with some slight mods.

[kimmerar]

Paul can you detail your hooding techniques from Steve and Jim.

This passage coops did fine in the box at first but that didn't last - I spent alot of time working on her (repeatedly opening and closing the door and offering tidbits) not banging around when I approached to take her out but when I open that door (going in no problem) she freaked hitting the back of the box pver amd pver and I though of the broken sternum. I'm hooding her now and she is a different bird - a lot calmer but will still bounce around (some) in the GH for some reason - no problems yet. I know she's not an imprint and that's the difference. I was told to get her used to petting her head - the guy that showed me did it first try and by the end of the day she would let me pet her head no problem but she was a little more leary of the left side for some reason - shutting her eyes and letting me cup her head - like a hood and work on holding the beak was part of the instruction also. That evening hood went on no problem and she's been hooding great since and she doesn't seem to be holding a grudge. I hope I didn't just jinx this - murphy has been around alot this season

Thanks for the box designs - I'm in need for a new box design also.

[Saluqi]

Hi Kim,

I was wondering how you were making out with your Coops, did she stay nice and calm like she was at the meet? Are you hawking her yet? How's it going?

Search the archives here for Jim & Steve's hooding approaches:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OPC_Falconry/

[kimmerar]

Hi Kim,

I was wondering how you were making out with your Coops, did she stay nice and calm like she was at the meet? Are you hawking her yet? How's it going?

Search the archives here for Jim & Steve's hooding approaches:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OPC_Falconry/

Thanks for the link - I'll check it out except I have to set up a new yahoo account and it keeps wanting to link me up with my old glitched out account that won't accept new emails. Yes she's still pretty calm on the fist she wants to fly but when she realizes she can't go then she sits well but crazy elsewhere - I still blame that on leaving for the NAFA meet but then again that might just be a coops. She did so well on the perch too - would let me approach no problem until we moved to that motel room. I will never leave on a trip again when training a new coops - especially when she was progressing so well. She hated jumping to the fist when we got back. Before we left she was jumping at 550.

Lots to say and I don't want to mess this thread - I'll call ya. Yes - we have been free flying. And she's been a great first coops - she's taught me a lot.

[goshawks00]

Tom it depends on which bird you get...male or female... Females,even as a first accip will be pretty straight forward... males....man...forget it... just get it hunting and killing asap.
.02
Barry

[bgibson]

Thanks I'd like to see it. I'm using a cylindrical sonotube for a box, which is alright but I'm going to make a new box at the end of the season. I'm planning on a PVC one like Chris Lynn uses, with some slight mods.

i added the tail brace in the middle (not on diagram).... hope this helps

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[goshawks00]

I also use a shelf perch in my GH ...no problems at all.
Barry

[tumble]

Having read both of McD's books, as well as McElroy and Mavrogordato, I hadn't really planned on hooding my first gos (hopefully a wild eyass female NA), at least not in the first year. I can definitely imagine the benefit of having already eliminated hooding from the equation when trouble shooting aggression, particularly hand aggression/fear. But I've wondered if it could be done successfully later on with the same gos if everything else goes fairly smoothly. Thanks to all so far for a productive thread.

[chamokane]

I also use a shelf perch in my GH ...no problems at all.
Barry

Barry,

What shape and size is the shelf, and where is it mounted?

[goshawks00]

Dave..it's an 8" wide 1 by shelf that fits in the back of the GH..it is 6-7 inches above the bottom of the GH...Now then another 8" wide 1 by is screwed perpendicular to the platform about 1&1/2" below the perch.
Picture a shelf the full width of the GH with a perch ( created by the second 8" board). In essence you you have a platform with a lip..
Make sense?... Carpet the perch part of the platform with good thick carpet... This is the actual perch for the hawk.. while in the GH,the platform ..at least in my case, serves as a feeding shelf for the hawk on the way home from hunting... Of course we have long ago discussed the light set-up in the GH. Make sense?
Barry

[chamokane]

Thanks, Barry.

[Ken S.]

Dave..it's an 8" wide 1 by shelf that fits in the back of the GH..it is 6-7 inches above the bottom of the GH...Now then another 8" wide 1 by is screwed perpendicular to the platform about 1&1/2" below the perch.
Picture a shelf the full width of the GH with a perch ( created by the second 8" board). In essence you you have a platform with a lip..
Make sense?... Carpet the perch part of the platform with good thick carpet... This is the actual perch for the hawk.. while in the GH,the platform ..at least in my case, serves as a feeding shelf for the hawk on the way home from hunting... Of course we have long ago discussed the light set-up in the GH. Make sense?
Barry

This sounds interesting... any chance you could share a picture or two? I'm also curious in the overall dimensions of the box and what type of ventilation you have setup for it.

[Jack]

I thought that hooding a young hawk from day one would make it except the thing readily. It did until he started to mature and at this time he just flat refused to take it. And some of the things that he had become accustomed to growing up suddenly presented him with a sourc of fear. So I have determined that it is a waste of time introducing them to things and even hooding early.
When they hard pin they suddenly transform from a fat young eyas that is daily developing and growing into a fat sub adult that is not utilizing this food serum except to store away as fat. They suddenly get sort of rank and starting acting out. Growing fearful and nervous. That is remedied by cutting of some weight quickly so that they do not develop into a screamer. I would wait until the hawk was at a decent flying weight and then attempt to do my hooding.
There are times when you want to hood and when you do not want to hood. This is in the beginning. They will resist hooding more strongly if they are anticipating food or flying. I avoid trying to hood at times when I can expect them to resist it most. Hooding can become a routine for them and they quickly learn that food or flying usually follow hooding. And once they are fed up they are usually less resistant to hooding.
Hooding requires one to be very patient, persistant, and deliberate. Never give up and allow the hawk to punk you. If the hawk resists, just continue to present the hood. Slowly and deliberately. Just keep on keeping on and eventually the hawk will give in and allow it. Once the hood is on, draw the braces and let it sit for a good while before removing it. I like to then feed the bird or fly it. I will not do so immediately, but carry and hold the hawk for 15 to 30 minutes before feeding them. Once fed, wait a few minutes and then resume the hood. The longer the hawk wears the hood, the less it will resent it. Thing to remember is that no hawk really likes hooding. They just tolorate it to differing extents. You can hood any hawk if you persist. Just be slow and deliberate about it and don't make a big deal over it if she bates or moves from it. Just try again and again until the hawk gives in. The average falconer will not have the patience or perseverence to hood an accipiter, so they just use the giant hood box. I know this because I also own one. Have owned a number of them over the years.
The hawk in my avatar was the most difficult hawk I have ever had to hood train. It took me a great deal of time and effort to achieve, but I eventually managed to get her to stand to it.

Jack

[goshawks00]

Jack were you ever able to get LB to reliably without resistence to routinely hood?
Barry

[tumble]

Barry, I have to admit you hooked me on an earlier post. Would you mind sharing a few details of your approach to females?

[goshawks00]

Sorry to disappoint you Tom but I just am not much of a hooder. The only gos I have hooded well is a screaming female that was a great hunter for a guy , then he got into a situation where he couldn't fly her and left her tied to a perch and just tossed food to her...for several months. She became an insane screamer... Still is!! three years later. He gave her back to me, and I hood trained her to see if that would slow her down some .. it didn't. The way I got her trained was to exercise her to the point of heavy breathing, I mean extreme exercising... then when she was doing all she could to get her breath back I would slip her hood on, then put her back on the perch... so she would cool down...and catch her breath. She began to see the hood as a relief to the exercising and began to look forward to it. It works fine for her... but she is the only one I have tried this on so can't say it will work on other birds... I am not an expert on hood training and will not spout advice about something I know little of, or have done once.

Barry
barry

[tumble]

Hoodless it is then. You guys seem to manage just fine.

[goshawks00]

Ken---OK the specs.
My hood is 17"wide x 23" tall x 30"deep. Those are outside dimensions... It isn't one of them plastic 1 lb jobs. This goes in the bed of the truck at the beginning of hunting season or training season if that's the case, and stays there until the end of hunting season...
It's framed with 1" x 1", made with luan board outside coraplast on the inside...
Ventilation ... it has a small 12v fan, that also plugs into cig lighter) that pumps outside air in at the bottom front side.. btw this is attached in a way that no light comes in... and there are several 3/4" holes at the top back that are air escape holes...these are also light tight
No pics sorry...
Barry

[Jack]

Jack were you ever able to get LB to reliably without resistence to routinely hood?
Barry

Hi Barry. No, actually I didn't. I was able to hood him when we parted, but it was not without some effort at times. He would hood better at certain times than at other times. Depending on what he might have been wanting to do at the time. I had just gotten started working regularly with the hood when disaster struck.
Back when we were doing hood training when he was still running around on the floor my hood disappeared. I had to make another one. Then months later I was moving things about and found it behind and under a futon we slept on when he was growing up. I guess he hid it from me there. He kept his toys in a particular spot and if you moved one or tossed it over in a corner he would go and get it and put it in it's proper spot.

Jack

[RTJim]

This sounds interesting... any chance you could share a picture or two? I'm also curious in the overall dimensions of the box and what type of ventilation you have setup for it.

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Pictures please sounds nice...........jm