Picco - Imprint Coopers Hawk

[kitana]

Jeff, thanks for starting this thread. And thanks to all the forum members for not flaming him down for using clicker training, that is refreshing! I sooo love this forum for that respectful attitude.

Jeff, you said something that disturbed me a little. You said you spanned the meals on a 30 minutes lenght of time. My question is: how long is his attention span??? My hawk has an attention span when doing clicker training of more or less 4-5 minutes. I trained chicken and pigeons, and their attention span was around 5-6 CLICKS! Not even 1 minute. The animals I found out had the greater attention span were horses and big cats, I could work with them for 10-15 minutes. Most animals though could come back to training after a 5-10 minutes break. So please explain me how you do, do you take breaks in your 30 minutes meal?

[rocgwp]

I'll see if I can get a video at some point...no promises though. Right now pics are easy since i can take and upload them with my phone.

I get the longer feeding session at this point mainly because he isn't very mobile yet. Layman suggested stretching it out as long as possible so I get more interaction time. My goal in a session isn't to crop him up, but to develop the interaction. It usually looks something like this:

Me feeding him several pieces of meat (while he sits on his haunches). He then walks to the edge of the pan and mutes. I tag that and then feed him a couple more pieces while he is sitting calmly. He then dozes off and wants to nuzzle up under my hand. I touch his back and let him sleep for a little bit then tag that. He wakes up and eats a couple more pieces. I slide the hood on take it off and tag it. He then goes back to sleep. Etc..

It is not one continuous feeding session (meaning me pumping food down him). It's bits and pieces at a leisurely pace.It just depends on how much time I have to spend with him.

My understanding is that it is about to change however. I have been told that once he is mobile, he will start offering lots of behaviors, get vocal, and probably go through an aggressive stage at some point. I will have to shape him through it, hopefully.

[MourneMan]

Jeff, thanks for starting this thread. And thanks to all the forum members for not flaming him down for using clicker training, that is refreshing! I sooo love this forum for that respectful attitude.

Jeff, you said something that disturbed me a little. You said you spanned the meals on a 30 minutes lenght of time. My question is: how long is his attention span??? My hawk has an attention span when doing clicker training of more or less 4-5 minutes. I trained chicken and pigeons, and their attention span was around 5-6 CLICKS! Not even 1 minute. The animals I found out had the greater attention span were horses and big cats, I could work with them for 10-15 minutes. Most animals though could come back to training after a 5-10 minutes break. So please explain me how you do, do you take breaks in your 30 minutes meal?

Hi Audrey
Can I take it that you're referring to a certain thread on a forum on this side of the pond:lol
I feel for 'LOKI' and 'SD' as they're so sincere in their posts.
It is good that they have you to support them.
Cheers
Malcolm

[kitana]

Jeff, a video would be awesome! Nothing better than watching a little chick doze off! lol But now I see what you do better, thanks for the explanations.

Malcolm, yeah I might be referring to a certain forum, however, it's not the first time the mention of clicker training on a falconry forum starts an ugly discussion. I'm not one who likes to fight for my opinions, I'm more for practical experiences than speaches, experience speaks for itself, but sometimes you just can't sit there and read without raising your hand to speak.

[Aman]

I look forward to this thread. All the best

[Mzingie]

Hi Jeff, Thanks a lot for starting this thread I look foward to updates all the time and will continue to follow this

[SOF]

Nice work,
Glad to see another Clicker trained hawk is coming along just fine. Looking forward to see this little guy grow up. My guess is he will exhibit more behaviors then your average Cooper's.

Thanks Kitana for pointing me to this thread.

Cheers,
Loki

[rocgwp]

17 days old

Picco is standing for 10-20 second intervals now. No other major changes. I'm pretty sure he is a male, he weighed 240 grams a couple days ago.

[rocgwp]

20 days old

Picco is now standing well and hopping and flapping. I have changed his feeding routine a little to begin shaping what his behavior will be like on a kill. I now approach his nest bowl with a quail carcass. I set it in the bowl and open it and cut it as I have been doing. I CR his calmness and give him a couple tidbits. I then walk away and leave the food with him. I wait for him to reach down and pluck the carcass or grab meat. At that instant, I CR and return to him and begin tearing some food from the carcass and handing it to him. The goal is for plucking and tearing to become a cue for the bird to give when it wants me to feed him. It puts the bird in control of something he wants (food). It also makes it a positive thing for me to approach him. When he catches, I won't make in until he gives the cue. Once there, he will already be accustommed to me tearing, moving, and handling his food. I should be able to give him a couple tidbits or transfer him to the lure quickly and go for another kill.



No pictures today...I have jury duty...

[MourneMan]

"The goal is for plucking and tearing to become a cue for the bird to give when it wants me to feed him. It puts the bird in control of something he wants (food). "

Very interesting Jeff. It will be intriguing to see how this particular training target progresses.
(apologies if the terminology isn't correct:lol)
Cheers
M

[rocgwp]

22 days old

Picco has caught on to the new feeding routine. I walk in and place the carcass in the bowl. He stands or sits and waits while I cut it up. I then CR him and hand him a couple tidbits. I move away and then he steps forward and begins to grab the meat. I CR that and then step back up and begin tidbitting him again. I repeat this several times in a session.

I put anklets on him the other night via the use of a strobe light. I probably could have put them on without it, but I used the strobe to help prevent any fear association with me.

I will be installing a backpack transmitter sometime this next week most likely. i am getting close to hack time.

[rocgwp]

24 days old

More of the same right now. I have introduced the lure. Also, in preparation for hack, I am letting him explore outside more and then feeding him at the nest bowl.

[rocgwp]

27 days old

Picco is ready for hack now. This weekend I have been letting him run around the back yard and CRing when he returned to the nest bowl or lure. He got to spend a lot of time outside. I also introduced him to my german wirehairs. No fear and hopefully the beginning of some great hunting relationships later this season since I have access to a new quail place.

I installed a backpack transmitter on him last night. I was really surprised at how easy it went. It took 3 of us to get a backpack on my other imprint coops without freaking him out. This time it only took me.

For the hack: I plan on feeding him up in the morning and then leaving him out all day. I will call him down in the evening (~5pm) and we will play some shaping/chasing games with bags or carcasses. Since I will be hacking him at home, myself or my wife will be checking on him throughout the day.

Here are some pics from this weekend

[rocgwp]

28 Days Old

First day of hack...This morning I took Picco and his nest bowl outside to the hack tree. I cut up a quail and fed him. I checked the transmitter and then left him. He was out for about 2 hours before I left home. In that time I saw him venture out into the trees some, but not far. I talked to my wife and she said he was spending most of his time back in the bowl sleeping.

I'll admit it was nice going to work today not toting an imprint everywhere. No mutes or down to worry about in office. He is progressing great so far. I would expect to start hearing some noise while he is at hack, but we'll have to wait and see.

Here are some pics I snapped before I left this morning:

[passagejack]

Jeff I really hope this works out well for you!! I'm looking forward to the day that I could do the same. If this works with a male Coops then I'm sure the rest of the Accips would take to it just fine.

[rocgwp]

29 Days old

Day 2 of the hack

Picco went higher in the tree and explored more today. When I came home it took him a while to figure out how to get back down to the nest bowl. He ate part of his meal as rewards for plucking a wing on the lure ( pluck, CR, reward). The rest I worked on introducing the glove. I am treating as if I was teaching him touch. He looks at it or moves toward it and I CR and reward. Eventually I will CR and reward for standing on it, then I put my hand in it and go from there.

Here are pics:

[gratefool1]

Flat out loving this thread! Keep it coming and thanks for sharing!

[rocgwp]

30 days old

Day 3 of hack

Tonight was fun. I came home at 5pm and Picco had worked his way to the top of a tree. I took food to the nest bowl and began cutting it up. It took him an hour to finally figure out how to get down.

Once down, I let him pluck and CR'd the plucking. I then picked the nest bowl and brought him inside. I tethered him to a perch and set a glove on either side of him. I began shaping him moving to a glove. By the time we were done, he understand he could stand on a glove to get fed. Biting the glove got him nothing, but standing calmly on the glove got him a CR and food.

He now wants to be with me more as well. When I walk to the perch he hops over to me and wants to lay against me. He seems to have more 'personality' than my other coops as well.

I have to leave for an overnight trip tomorrow. I have another falconer that is going to feed him for me (using the cr). I won't be able to hack him so we have set up his mew with lots of branches for him to run around on. We are trying to simulate the hack as much as possible.

[REYNALDO]

this thread has been really informative! great job. looking forward to more pics and progress reports

[RyanVZ]

Jeff, do you think that you'll hood train this bird? And why or why not? Just curious. Thanks

[rocgwp]

I do plan on hood training Picco. I will be more deliberate about it as he get hungrier and starts performing even more for rewards. I didn't hood train my other coops and it was fine. I figure that this whole process is an experiment, so why not try it. If he hoods, it will come in handy. If it doesn't work out...no big deal.

[RyanVZ]

I do plan on hood training Picco. I will be more deliberate about it as he get hungrier and starts performing even more for rewards. I didn't hood train my other coops and it was fine. I figure that this whole process is an experiment, so why not try it. If he hoods, it will come in handy. If it doesn't work out...no big deal.

Good point about if it doesnt work out nothing lost. I've trained and flown a bunch of birds but never an imprint coop, so I'm doing it for the first time this year. I've been on the fence about hooding her. I also use a marker to train behaviors, but I'm planning on waiting til the bird is food motivated to start. (mostly because I'm lazy after training animals all day it's hard to go home and do more of it) I'll be following your thread to see what kind of headway you will get by having an early start and will probably be kicking myself a month from now

[Saluqi]

Hey Jeff,

I imprinted both of my goshawks using the same techniques that you are using now. With the first one I tried the typical method of hood training, I had the hood in the nest box and would put it on and take it off, and that worked. He hooded well up until some time in November and then it all fell apart. With the female, I took Steve Layman's advice and didn't even introduce the hood until around November, and then using OC I trained her to the hood and that worked really well with her. She was never as easy to hood as a falcon, but she did accept the hood and I could get it on her with a little trouble, but nothing traumatic.

[moredtailboy]

would you exsplain the oc hooding method please I have kept good tabs on this tread and im interested to that would work.

[Saluqi]

would you exsplain the oc hooding method please I have kept good tabs on this tread and im interested to that would work.

Hi Joe,

Search the archives for hooding at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OPC_Falconry/

[kitana]

I am really keen to see the differences between your bird and Ryan's. In my (limited) experience with animals clicker trained from early on, they tend to be very well balanced in life, always knowing there is something they can do to obtain what they want instead of throwing a temper tantrum or shutting down. It's true of all clicker trained animals, but those who knew nothing but that are different usually.

Another thing I noticed with dogs, rats and chicken is that they always tend to revert to the very first few behaviors they learned when they don't know what to do. Training a very calm behavior as "default" has therefore become my routine and I would certainly do it with a hawk as highly-strung as a Coops!

Very nice thread, keep it going please!

[RyanVZ]

I am really keen to see the differences between your bird and Ryan's. In my (limited) experience with animals clicker trained from early on, they tend to be very well balanced in life, always knowing there is something they can do to obtain what they want instead of throwing a temper tantrum or shutting down. It's true of all clicker trained animals, but those who knew nothing but that are different usually.

Can't say I totally agree with this. I've done a lot of work training many behaviors and a lot of training out aggression problems that others have developed and reinforced in birds over long periods of time including several eagles that had shown aggression for over 20 years. Within a short amount of time of marking non-aggressive and incompatible behaviors you can get rid of most if not all of the problems. There are times when animals can get into a mode where they are offering up everything they have ever learned and more which can be useful and also at times a setback. Animals always know there is something they can do to get what they want, we just have to capture or shape those behaviors so they fit with what we want. Temper tantrums and shutting down are anthropomorphic terms that really dont amount to any more than a behavior that needs to be modified. Imprints or not, they still have instincts that will aways play a role as well. Dogs, Rats, and Chickens are domesticated and instincts play a far lesser role in their lives.

These are some of my experiences that I have had. Having a mark for behaviors is a great tool and I am very interested to find out if starting the bird out from the get go or holding off will really make a difference in the end. I suspect it will not but I've never flown an imprint coop so I'm probably setting myself up for a major shock! Sorry for the hijack Jeff.

[tampamatt]

Love this thread! Can't wait to see how this bird turns out. Great discussion on behavior as well.

[kimmerar]

Hey Jeff,

I took Steve Layman's advice and didn't even introduce the hood until around November, and then using OC I trained her to the hood and that worked really well with her.

Paul - I'm curious why Steve picks this time. I'm guessing dispersal hormones (fear and aggression) are over by then. Are there problems if you try earlier?

[Saluqi]

Paul - I'm curious why Steve picks this time. I'm guessing dispersal hormones (fear and aggression) are over by then. Are there problems if you try earlier?

Hi Kim,

Steve usually hacks his imprints so he doesn't even try hooding until he brings them in from the hack, so he starts earlier than I did. I think Steve believes that as branchers goshawks are easily traumatized, so rather than risk a negative learning experience it's better to wait until their brains have matured some. I waited with my female gos until November because I was lazy and didn't have much of a need to hood her.

[kimmerar]

Thanks Paul. OK - makes sense. I'm curious if the chicks know what the click treat is about why not start it earlier. It would still need to be practiced during the hack though. Which could be problematic. The question is - do they really know what the click treat is about . Picco sounds like he does. Can't wait to see the video.

I know 6wk old puppies (CCI puppies) can be taught to wait for a eat command before they eat from a bowl of food sitting in front of them. And I mean waiting for minutes with a sit involved. And this was recorded at 6 weeks. This was a show off thing someone did to show what the clicker can do. This was in the early 90's.

I think the clicker works great for more high strung animals. Hardest part is getting to the first step - hunger takes care of that. I believe fear is instinctive but also due to to boredom and the clicker can really help with that if used correctly.

My .02 - I have limited experience clicking with raptors. But there are lots that do so...... Jeff keep up the thread. Very interesting.

[rocgwp]

35 days old

Day 8 of hack

Picco actually looks like a coopers hawk now. I have pics, but I have to download them from our camera and upload them to the computer. I went to a wedding over the weekend and had to leave Picco in the mew. I set the mew up with branches everywhere. He was able to go to varying heights and explore. It wasn't quite like hack, but it seems to have served it's purpose well. The falconer who fed for me encountered no problems.

He has been back outside for 2 days now. He is exploring more and more and venturing further away from the hack tree. I tracked him down about 300-400 yds away yesterday when I got home. By 8:30pm he was back at the hack tree ready to be fed. He has finally started to make some noise (as I expected). He has a soft peeping sound he makes when he gets hungry. I'm pretty sure that will get louder as things progress.

At this point he will come down to the lure with a quail wing on it and pluck to get me to feed him. It makes me laugh because he will look at the food I am holding in my hand and instead of coming after it, he will reach down to pluck as if saying "Feed me now!". If I skip a couple plucks, he will pluck hard and exaggerate it trying to get me to feed him. Sometimes if I am in a hurry, I jackpot him to speed up the process. If I do this, I let him eat a couple bites and then reach in and CR as I hand him some tidbits of of what he is eating. He will also stand on the glove for short durations unrestrained. I am CRing him looking away from me while on the glove. This morning I had fun playing some chase games with him. I would toss a quail wing and CR when he would chase it and grab it. He spent about 30 minutes chasing stuff around the yard. It ended when he flew after a mockingbird. Of course he didn't come anywhere near close. He landed in a tree and I figured that was a good time to end the session and go to work.

The next things I am focusing on over the next week are:

1. CRing him for returning to the glove
2. Putting bating on cue
3. Entering him on bagged game and playing more chase games
4. Continuing to CR calm behaviors

[kitana]

How do you deliver the food, with your bare hand? Does he already start to grab the morsels with his feet, or does he still pick them up with his beak?

[rocgwp]

I give him the tidbits with my bare hands or on tip of my gloved finger. I always make sure I am looking at him straight on with both eyes and have my face pretty close (like a parent). He then reaches out a takes it with his beak. He has never attempted to grab the food with his feet (yet).

[rocgwp]

36 Days old - 341 grams

Day 9 of Hack

Finally decided to put Picco on the scale today. He is pretty close to the weight of my other tiercel coops at this same age.

I had an interesting moment with him last night. I called him down to a quail wing on the lure. It was obvious he was hungry and anxious to eat. He could see the tidbits I had for him in my hand. He reached down and plucked a feather off of the wing. I CRed and after the CR he mantled and reached for the tidbit (with his beak). He then immediately slicked back down and plucked another feather. I Cred and he mantled again after the CR as he reached for the tidbit again. After 3-4 tidbits, he no longer mantled, but stayed calm throughout the entire time. It was the first time I have seen him mantle or show any sign of behavior that he views me as a sibling. I was concerned at first, but after consulting Steve this morning, it appears that is normal and to be expected. I just need to progress and work through any behavior that would show or lead to aggression.

The neat part of the whole deal was seeing him switch between emotional states. Even though he could see the tidbits he knew he had to pluck to get them. He would pluck with all of his might and you could see the anxiousness built up in him anticipating the food. After he mantled, he then slicked back down and gave the complete appearance of a calm bird as he plucked again. Then all of that change when he heard the CR. Then he slicked back and went calm in an instant...

After letting him pluck the lure a little, I stepped him to the fist and we began working on putting bating on cue. We also spent some time with him sitting on the ground like an eyass being fed calmly and sitting on my open gloved hand like an eyass being fed calmly.

I took him inside for the evening. He was a little restless at first since he was tied down and wanted to find a high place to roost. After about 15 minutes, he settled down and didn't move much at all. When I would walk over to the perch he would scoot over and lean against me.

I'm really enjoying this bird so far...