Clicker training and rewarding with food

[Ally]

Ally,

Where are you getting your information about the "3 second rule?" Unfortunately, this just is not correct information that you are giving out.

Toby, you were not reading carefully. I also would appreciate being referred to by my name, as it is signed at the bottom of my post per forum rules, and not 'that woman.'

I said the time between the REWARD and the behavior is only about 3 seconds to make the association. I then followed said statement with one that said using a clicker, or CR, gives you more time to reward.

My meaning came across a little skewed when I said the timing between the click and the tidbit was important--and it still is, there should be a tidbit following each click, but it doesn't have to to be nearly as fast as without the CR.

Kitana provided a great source for the information, and I received my information through my education at Animal Behavior College and through my behavioral psychology degree, since you asked.

Maureen -
The behavior has been shaped since the day I got him, to be patient and wait for my to feed him. He is a full-food imprint using Steve Layman's method--my log is under the Imprinting forum, titled "Blackjack, 2012 tiercal NA goshawk" or something similar. Good luck with your RT!

[thebooster99]

You are absolutely correct. I didn't read that carefully. I apologize.

However, after reading it again several times, I still disagree with your "3 second" statement, but this time the opposite way. I personally don't think reward can be delivered fast enough without a CR. How on earth will the bird know what it is doing correct if you aren't hitting a CR the moment the behavior happens? 3 seconds is an eternity. If you are shaping a sharpy, there could easily be 20 behaviors in 3 seconds.

From my experience, timing is SOOOO important that any time between the behavior and the CR is too long. The CR needs to occur at the very same moment the behavior does. I believe it is so important that when I'm shaping, I will form my mouth so all I have to do is blow for the whistle to happen. Otherwise, the time it takes me to form my mouth, inhale and blow is far too long to properly reinforce the behavior that I was looking for.

With regard to you being offended by me calling you a "woman," you may want to lighten up. I'm sure you've been called much worse over the course of your life. If you haven't, you are very lucky. I definitely have. And by the way, you didn't read it carefully. I didn't call you "that woman." I called you "the woman." This should lessen how much I've offended you, but if you're still offended by my use of the word "woman," I truly apologize.

All jabbing aside, the fact of the matter is, I was in the middle of writing the post and when it came to writing your name, I wasn't able to see it above the text on my screen and I couldn't remember it (too many blows to the head from women that I've offended over the course of my life). Furthermore, I was concerned the if I hit my "back" button, it would have erased my writing and I would have had to start over.

Toby, you were not reading carefully. I also would appreciate being referred to by my name, as it is signed at the bottom of my post per forum rules, and not 'that woman.'

I said the time between the REWARD and the behavior is only about 3 seconds to make the association. I then followed said statement with one that said using a clicker, or CR, gives you more time to reward.

My meaning came across a little skewed when I said the timing between the click and the tidbit was important--and it still is, there should be a tidbit following each click, but it doesn't have to to be nearly as fast as without the CR.

Kitana provided a great source for the information, and I received my information through my education at Animal Behavior College and through my behavioral psychology degree, since you asked.

Maureen -
The behavior has been shaped since the day I got him, to be patient and wait for my to feed him. He is a full-food imprint using Steve Layman's method--my log is under the Imprinting forum, titled "Blackjack, 2012 tiercal NA goshawk" or something similar. Good luck with your RT!

[Ally]

You are absolutely correct. I didn't read that carefully. I apologize.

No problem Toby, apology accepted!

Yep, been called many worse things, but there's no need to be rude. I totally understand not wanting to start over writing you post. That's why I use the "CTRL + C" command on my keyboard to copy what I've already written if I need to go back.

Or, I just refer to previous posts, like your first one, where someone has already mentioned the name of the person I am addressing.

If I didn't make it clear before, the "3 second rule" is NOT, in fact, a rule, but a general guideline that I have found with dogs and seems to carry over pretty well to make that exact association I want. It can be difficult to do without a CR, which is why operant conditioning and conditioned reinforcers are so incredibly powerful in shaping behavior. They capture the exact moment or behavior you are looking for without the delay that reaching for a tidbit (or other treat) can cause. I love operant conditioning, I am a firm believer that it can turn a "good" trainer, falconer, teacher, whatever, into a great one.

[goshawkr]

If I didn't make it clear before, the "3 second rule" is NOT, in fact, a rule, but a general guideline that I have found with dogs and seems to carry over pretty well to make that exact association I want. It can be difficult to do without a CR, which is why operant conditioning and conditioned reinforcers are so incredibly powerful in shaping behavior. They capture the exact moment or behavior you are looking for without the delay that reaching for a tidbit (or other treat) can cause. I love operant conditioning, I am a firm believer that it can turn a "good" trainer, falconer, teacher, whatever, into a great one.

The absolute rule is actually more like ~15 minutes. However, the longer the time between the CR and the actual delivery of the reward, the weaker the association will be. Although it should be noted that the subject animal will frequently pick up on cues, and be rewarded by them, knowing that the treat is coming. A classic example is when you click a dog, then fumble in a pocket for the actual treat. They are rewarded by your hand in the pocket, in anticipation of what will be coming out, and all of that gets associated to the behavior that you tagged with the CR. Hawks do just as well with that anticipation being a reward of sorts.

Now to go back and re-examine the 3 second...shall we call it a guideline?... a bit. One thing that is very important to remember, especially when working with a well armed animal from the solitary side of the social/non-social spectrum like hawks, is that they have frequently have less than friendly reactions to rivals for their food, and these behaviors typically express themselves when they get impatient about expecting food to appear and not actually having it appear. This means that you need to be very careful about delivering the food after the CR is given, or you have some ugly anti-social behaviors show up, and THOSE will be reinforced. Sometimes instead of the behavior you are trying to reinforce.

The key is to wait out the ugly anti-social behaviors. Preferably until they are gone all together, but sometimes you may need to settle for them being reduced. The hawk will quickly put it together that it only actually gets the reward if it minds its manners.

There are very strong instinctive impulses backing these anti-social behaviors, and they dont take very much reinforcement to become very strongly expressed.

[accipitterpatter]

Thanks to everyone who has offered advice and information. I actually have another question that is related to the subject. What do you use for a CR? I would like to be able to use something that is hands free and that I can use over longer distances. I would prefer not to use a spoken word for it. In the past, when I was not incorporating clicker training in my training, I have used one blast on a whistle to call the bird to the fist and six quick blasts on the whistle to indicate I'm swinging the lure and the hawk should come over to get it. I would still like to use these cues. Can I use my regular whistle to sound the CR in a different pattern (such as two quick blasts) from those mentioned above or will that confuse the hawk? I bought a shepherd's whistle and am experimenting with that but it does not sound loud enough for use in the field (plus I am having a tough time figuring out how to get it to work right). I thought I could use two different tones, one for my cues and one for my CR, but again, I don't think it will be loud enough to be absolutely reliable in the field.

Now to go back and re-examine the 3 second...shall we call it a guideline?... a bit. One thing that is very important to remember, especially when working with a well armed animal from the solitary side of the social/non-social spectrum like hawks, is that they have frequently have less than friendly reactions to rivals for their food, and these behaviors typically express themselves when they get impatient about expecting food to appear and not actually having it appear. This means that you need to be very careful about delivering the food after the CR is given, or you have some ugly anti-social behaviors show up, and THOSE will be reinforced. Sometimes instead of the behavior you are trying to reinforce.

The key is to wait out the ugly anti-social behaviors. Preferably until they are gone all together, but sometimes you may need to settle for them being reduced. The hawk will quickly put it together that it only actually gets the reward if it minds its manners.

There are very strong instinctive impulses backing these anti-social behaviors, and they dont take very much reinforcement to become very strongly expressed.

Geoff, those anti-social behaviors are EXACTLY what I want to avoid, and because of my inexperience with clicker training, I am a little apprehensive. If you don't mind, could you elaborate on how you correct or "wait out" anti-social behaviors? What are some of the behaviors I should be looking out for to reenforce or not reenforce? I wanted to do clicker training so that I could hunt with a better mannered hawk, so I don't want to create problems. Again, I really appreciate the information. If anyone else would like to chime in on ways to make sure the hawk retains good manners, I would appreciate that also.

[goshawkr]

Geoff, those anti-social behaviors are EXACTLY what I want to avoid, and because of my inexperience with clicker training, I am a little apprehensive. If you don't mind, could you elaborate on how you correct or "wait out" anti-social behaviors? What are some of the behaviors I should be looking out for to reenforce or not reenforce?

I am sorry, but its very hard to describe well. Really, its something taht you can learn on the fly. If you see bad manners, wait till they go away to give the reward. Focus on good mellow behavior, like a relaxed pose, wtih fluffed out feathers.