Disguising your face

[kitana]

Funny that you ask, I've just finished reading Layman's article passager to imprint and I like the way he deals with passage birds, hiding himself at all time either by using cloths or the hood... Makes me think seriously about using this method for my future accipiter instead of taking the risk of creating a bad imprint...

[Hawkingcolorado]

Funny that you ask, I've just finished reading Layman's article passager to imprint and I like the way he deals with passage birds, hiding himself at all time either by using cloths or the hood... Makes me think seriously about using this method for my future accipiter instead of taking the risk of creating a bad imprint...

I too just read that article...I'm picking up a new MHH tomorrow at the airport. I will give it a shot..I'll have to remember to NOT have a ski mask on when I drive into the airport

[goshawkr]

I too just read that article...I'm picking up a new MHH tomorrow at the airport. I will give it a shot..I'll have to remember to NOT have a ski mask on when I drive into the airport

Layman goes to extremes at avoiding fear with all hawks now.

I think this is a bit nuts, because there is definately a point of diminishing returns. I think a CB Harris' is a good example of diminishing returns. They come around so quickly, and tame so thoroughly with more traditional methods that I think taking the extreme fear avoidance route is overkill.

But it does make a difference, even with them.

And its not my time that will be spent on the endevour.

Avoiding as much negative association as possible is a great goal. But I temper that, at times, by doing a little mental calculation:
(how much fear/trauma will be involved) + (how difficult to overcome because of the nature of the hawk) / (how much of a PIA it will be to avoid/reduce the trauma) = my course of action.

Steve's current practice is to avoid all fear always with all hawks if possible. That is not a bad thing, just more effort than I want to saddle myself with.

[Bird_Dog]

Here are links to research by Dr. Marzluff of University if Washington. He studies long-term face recognition in Crows. (the so-called friend or foe study done in downtown Seattle) It seems to have relevance to the current discussion. http://www.cfr.washington.edu/spotlight.shtml http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/sc...crow.html?_r=2

something to think about

-- Scott

[outhawkn]

Personally, I dont believe it would make any difference at all.....

[JRedig]

I absolutely believe in hiding yourself, it does make a difference and makes all the initial processes much easier. Such a simple thing to do, why wouldn't you avoid any potential negatives of you/your face or your hand?

[outhawkn]

I absolutely believe in hiding yourself, it does make a difference and makes all the initial processes much easier. Such a simple thing to do, why wouldn't you avoid any potential negatives of you/your face or your hand?

Hi Jeff

In what way does it make a difference?

[JRedig]

Hi Jeff

In what way does it make a difference?

Hey Bill, it works on quite a few levels, IMO.

If the bird does not have a big negative experience with you and handling it initially (think the classic freshly trapped redtail pose), you have that much less to overcome in manning. The bird will not have to be reduced as much in weight, if at all and will trust you much sooner.

That keeps the bird in better health and can help fend off things like asper taking hold. Why take them through the process of losing conditioning etc if you don't have too?

If the first time the bird see's you and your hand, there is food and a quiet dimly lit room, what association does that establish from the beginning? A positive one. Why create more work for yourself? Sure they can have short term memories and forget all that stuff, i'd just rather avoid it and make progress sooner.

[Lowachi]

Hey Bill, it works on quite a few levels, IMO.

If the bird does not have a big negative experience with you and handling it initially (think the classic freshly trapped redtail pose), you have that much less to overcome in manning. The bird will not have to be reduced as much in weight, if at all and will trust you much sooner.

That keeps the bird in better health and can help fend off things like asper taking hold. Why take them through the process of losing conditioning etc if you don't have too?

If the first time the bird see's you and your hand, there is food and a quiet dimly lit room, what association does that establish from the beginning? A positive one. Why create more work for yourself? Sure they can have short term memories and forget all that stuff, i'd just rather avoid it and make progress sooner.

Pretty much what I was told in Colorado when I picked up my first peregrine from Sam Dollar. I believe in it.

[Saluqi]

Hi Jeff

In what way does it make a difference?

I can tell you the theory behind it, or at least my hackneyed version. It's based on "trauma learning", which is basically anything that is learned while in a trauma state is very difficult to unlearn. So if you trap a bird on a BC let's say, and you go running up to the bird and it flips on its back, feet out front, hackles up, hissing the bird is in a trauma state. If the first thing it sees are my big old hands grasping for for it, and my big old ugly head leaning over it, and staring at it with my big eyes (often thought of as an act of aggression in the animal world), then there is a good chance that the bird will learn automatically to fear hands, people in general, and me specifically. Now imagine approaching the bird while holding a big beach towel in front of you and placing it over the bird so it never gets to see you, you've more or less eliminated the people from the equation in the trauma learning sequence. In my experience the less trauma inflicted on a bird, the more steady and less fear that bird will show in the future. I'm still amazed that more people don't keep freshly trapped birds hooded until well after they are eating on the fist, I know the total immersion approach works with redtails and most other birds, but using the slow "bringing into the light" approach makes for a steadier bird in the long term.

[outhawkn]

Hey Bill, it works on quite a few levels, IMO.

If the bird does not have a big negative experience with you and handling it initially (think the classic freshly trapped redtail pose), you have that much less to overcome in manning. The bird will not have to be reduced as much in weight, if at all and will trust you much sooner.

That keeps the bird in better health and can help fend off things like asper taking hold. Why take them through the process of losing conditioning etc if you don't have too?

If the first time the bird see's you and your hand, there is food and a quiet dimly lit room, what association does that establish from the beginning? A positive one. Why create more work for yourself? Sure they can have short term memories and forget all that stuff, i'd just rather avoid it and make progress sooner.

I can tell you the theory behind it, or at least my hackneyed version. It's based on "trauma learning", which is basically anything that is learned while in a trauma state is very difficult to unlearn. So if you trap a bird on a BC let's say, and you go running up to the bird and it flips on its back, feet out front, hackles up, hissing the bird is in a trauma state. If the first thing it sees are my big old hands grasping for for it, and my big old ugly head leaning over it, and staring at it with my big eyes (often thought of as an act of aggression in the animal world), then there is a good chance that the bird will learn automatically to fear hands, people in general, and me specifically. Now imagine approaching the bird while holding a big beach towel in front of you and placing it over the bird so it never gets to see you, you've more or less eliminated the people from the equation in the trauma learning sequence. In my experience the less trauma inflicted on a bird, the more steady and less fear that bird will show in the future. I'm still amazed that more people don't keep freshly trapped birds hooded until well after they are eating on the fist, I know the total immersion approach works with redtails and most other birds, but using the slow "bringing into the light" approach makes for a steadier bird in the long term.

Ok, that makes sense, thank you.

I'll have to give that some thought.....

[goshawkr]

I can tell you the theory behind it, or at least my hackneyed version. It's based on "trauma learning", which is basically anything that is learned while in a trauma state is very difficult to unlearn. So if you trap a bird on a BC let's say, and you go running up to the bird and it flips on its back, feet out front, hackles up, hissing the bird is in a trauma state. If the first thing it sees are my big old hands grasping for for it, and my big old ugly head leaning over it, and staring at it with my big eyes (often thought of as an act of aggression in the animal world), then there is a good chance that the bird will learn automatically to fear hands, people in general, and me specifically. Now imagine approaching the bird while holding a big beach towel in front of you and placing it over the bird so it never gets to see you, you've more or less eliminated the people from the equation in the trauma learning sequence.

But how then will you ever be able to take your hawk for a day on the beach? It will have a horrible fear of beach towels after that experience.

[Saluqi]

But how then will you ever be able to take your hawk for a day on the beach? It will have a horrible fear of beach towels after that experience.

C'mon Geoff, I live in the desert/plains the beach is only a memory from my youth....

[MrBill]

I have trapped and trained a lot of passage hawks (RT's, Cooper's and Harris's). I have never covered any aspect on my body while approaching them on the trap, or later and the vast majorithy of these birds were on the wing in two weeks time. So, I really don't think it makes any difference at all.

In terms of trauma, here is a definition of the word that I feel is fairly accurate:

"an extremely distressing experience that causes severe emotional shock and may have long-lasting psychological effects"

If this were the case, there is no way (IMO) that we would be able to get passage hawks flying free (and returning) in a couple of weeks; it would take months, perhaps years.

Bill Boni

[Tom Smith]

I have trapped and trained a lot of passage hawks (RT's, Cooper's and Harris's). I have never covered any aspect on my body while approaching them on the trap, or later and the vast majorithy of these birds were on the wing in two weeks time. So, I really don't think it makes any difference at all.

In terms of trauma, here is a definition of the word that I feel is fairly accurate:

"an extremely distressing experience that causes severe emotional shock and may have long-lasting psychological effects"

If this were the case, there is no way (IMO) that we would be able to get passage hawks flying free (and returning) in a couple of weeks; it would take months, perhaps years.

Bill Boni

I tend to agree with this as I have had good luck "taming" freshly caught birds. But I have seen some real severe exceptions and in my opinion it has a lot to do with my initial encounter with the bird. For instance when I'm approaching a bird on a trap or in a trap I try to never chase the bird but try to keep it facing me with wings spread and gradually gather it up into my hands avoiding getting bit or footed, making the whole operation as calm as possible.

Sometimes I have caught prairie falcons in a D-net that had their wings free and were able travel pretty well resulting in some long chases on the ground. These birds are severely entrenched with the idea that if they keep trying they can get away and it carries over into the manning process and I have turned a few birds so indoctrinated loose after a few days struggling to gain any kind progress with them.

But there have been exceptions to this also where in spite of an ugly chase and subduing, the bird calmed right down anyway.

I have noticed that birds caught in a bownet and carefully removed are not as traumatized as some birds caught by other methods resulting extra traumatic activity to bring them to sock or restraint. Trapping prairie falcons, peregrines and goshawks in bownets and banding them on the spot for release has produced some interesting episodes where the bird was still watching the pigeon as I was fastening band, and when I released the bird it went right back after the pigeon for some moments until it realized the danger and flew away. One such bird was not interested in the bait bird but was after me and put in some stoops at me on the way back to the blind and then went on her way.
One of the easiest prairie falcons for me to man was caught in D-net and I cautiously approach her on the ground. She was very well caught and couldn't move but was full of fight. I intended to keep her from the beginning so I was careful and respectful as I tried to free her from her bonds. I didn't notice she was freer than I thought and she suddenly popped out of the net and onto the ground a few feet from where I was kneeling and was facing me. I was upset with my self for letting this happen because I had been watching this particular bird and really wanted her. So for some split seconds we just stared at each other, she was glancing over her shoulder and I knew she knew that if she turned I might be able to snatch her back, then she really surprised me by attacking me and painfully footing and biting my legs and I gathered her up and went home she tamed right down and was very agreeable and a joy to work with. I think I had instilled a fight rather than flee mindset in her from the beginning inadvertently by being careful with her. Of course it may have just been this bird, one never knows.

[wingnut]

I have trapped and trained a lot of passage hawks (RT's, Cooper's and Harris's). I have never covered any aspect on my body while approaching them on the trap, or later and the vast majorithy of these birds were on the wing in two weeks time. So, I really don't think it makes any difference at all.

In terms of trauma, here is a definition of the word that I feel is fairly accurate:

"an extremely distressing experience that causes severe emotional shock and may have long-lasting psychological effects"

If this were the case, there is no way (IMO) that we would be able to get passage hawks flying free (and returning) in a couple of weeks; it would take months, perhaps years.

Bill Boni

I totaly agree. They turn out fine either way. It's like having a whisle on your car bumper to scare off elephants on the road. The people who have them have never hit an elephant. They really work well. The people who mask up and hide their face have birds that work out most of the time and so do the ones who don't. To each his own.