Peregrine training books

[Mystique]

I was wondering if anyone knows of any good books for Peregrine training? In B. Haak's The Hunting Falcon - he refers to British authors as having the really good books for training the Peregrine but do not mention what they are. If anyone has some ideas or knows of any American books that are any better please post ideas. Just about anything in general that actually concentrates on the Peregrine. Thanks in advance. My library is getting bigger and my account is getting smaller but I love tracking down various books to get different perspectives on this wonderful sport.

[Chris Proctor]

I was wondering if anyone knows of any good books for Peregrine training? In B. Haak's The Hunting Falcon - he refers to British authors as having the really good books for training the Peregrine but do not mention what they are. If anyone has some ideas or knows of any American books that are any better please post ideas. Just about anything in general that actually concentrates on the Peregrine. Thanks in advance. My library is getting bigger and my account is getting smaller but I love tracking down various books to get different perspectives on this wonderful sport.

The best Peregrine book would be the Flying of falcons, Ed is a Peregrine guy through and through..

[Lowachi]

The best Peregrine book would be the Flying of falcons, Ed is a Peregrine guy through and through..

I agree, if you have the space and the birds at yer disposal. May I reccomend Ray Turner's" Game Hawk Field & Moor" as well. Spent some time with Ed, years ago, and learned alot, but I found this book enlightning as well.

[Mystique]

So what do you mean if you have the space and birds? Just getting some incite...$85 for a book that doesn't have a lot of a description on the website. The example pages is more talking about his experience rather than how I've read other sample pages. I hope I don't come across as bagging on the guys, its just not he usual type sample readings I'm used to. More incite please.... LOL.... thanks.

[Chris Proctor]

So what do you mean if you have the space and birds? Just getting some incite...$85 for a book that doesn't have a lot of a description on the website. The example pages is more talking about his experience rather than how I've read other sample pages. I hope I don't come across as bagging on the guys, its just not he usual type sample readings I'm used to. More incite please.... LOL.... thanks.

I think he means space to fly a large falcon, since falcons eat up the sky. $85 for a book that will teach you how to understand the falcon, fly it the way it was born to fly according to it's genetic make up (Gyr Vs. Pere..etc) and why falcons do what the do is well worth it coming from a guy who knows how to fly falcons. If you're looking for a cheap alternative, may I suggest just finding a good longwinger in your area and go flying with them?

The good falconry books will always be the more costly ones..

[TiercelR]

"Falconry: art and practice" by Roger Upton is another good book fucosed lonely on the training of the peregrines in the middle of the XX century. Its one of my main favourite books.

"The art of falconry" by Fredrick II is another no time read with excellent knowledge about the training of the peregrines and another falcons. Its another one of my main favourite books.

You will go right with this two books despite that they were published long time ago.

[frootdog]

More incite please.... LOL.... thanks.

I love the book. VERY informative, but don't take my word for it. There's a handy dandy search feature on NAFEX.........

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=3563&highlight=flying+falcons

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=7110&highlight=flying+falcons

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=7686&highlight=flying+falcons

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=8976&highlight=flying+falcons

[oldguy]

If you're looking for a book on the peregrine written in the UK, you can't do better than "Observations on Modern Falconry" by Robert Stevens.

Stevens knew the peregrine.

Great chapter on hooding. Small book, lots of knowledge inside.

Good luck, Dan.

[Pedioecetes]

If you want to go British then add "The Art and Pracise of Hawking" by E.B. Michell to the list. Ronald Steven's and Ray Turner's books are my other favorites. Ed Pitcher's book is intriguing but, not a beginners book. Ed's philosophy requires a lot of self examination to apply to one's own situation, he has the insight into the Peregrine's brain finely presented, but flying one like he does will not apply to everyone's hawking grounds. Definitely a recommended book though, I love it.

[Lowachi]

If you want to go British then add "The Art and Pracise of Hawking" by E.B. Michell to the list. Ronald Steven's and Ray Turner's books are my other favorites. Ed Pitcher's book is intriguing but, not a beginners book. Ed's philosophy requires a lot of self examination to apply to one's own situation, he has the insight into the Peregrine's brain finely presented, but flying one like he does will not apply to everyone's hawking grounds. Definitely a recommended book though, I love it.

Thanks Bob,
I wasn't very eloquent after working a double yesterday. Thanks for clearing that up some.

[RyanVZ]

I love the book. VERY informative, but don't take my word for it.

Doubt we'll be seeing it on Reading Rainbow.... :D

[NMHighPlains]

I think he means space to fly a large falcon, since falcons eat up the sky.

$85 for a book that will teach you how to understand the falcon, fly it the way it was born to fly according to it's genetic make up (Gyr Vs. Pere..etc) and why falcons do what the do is well worth it coming from a guy who knows how to fly falcons.

Right. And by "...birds" he means that you stand a good chance of losing your bird when you teach them to hunt the big sky rather than waiting on directly overhead like a falcon on a string. Ed's pretty up-front about the fact that you're more likely to lose the bird, too.

Agree on the 2nd point, too. It actually costs about $105 by the time it gets delivered to your door.

[TiercelR]

"Falconry: art and practice" by Roger Upton
The right title is "Falconry: principles and practice" by Roger Upton. Sorry:D

[Mystique]

Thanks all. I am by no means saying price is the factor. I was just saying with the sort of vague description, I wanted to make sure it had what I wanted. We all know we can't go to Barnes and Noble and thumb through them first. I love getting the perspectives from all sorts of people and eras. Keep titles coming... I want good reading material.

[Alex Stokes]

Gamehawk is a great book, but is pricey now, (probably $500 plus). Ronald Stevens books have all recently been republished so should be very affordable.

Some others worth considering are:

The Art and Practice of Falconry by the Hon Gerald Lascelles
Hints on Hawking by James Harting
The Falcons Lure and Cure by Symon Latham

The first two were published in the Victorian days, Latham's book was published in the 1600's. It is written in old English which takes a while to get used to, but it is a gem.

Regards

Alex


Thanks all. I am by no means saying price is the factor. I was just saying with the sort of vague description, I wanted to make sure it had what I wanted. We all know we can't go to Barnes and Noble and thumb through them first. I love getting the perspectives from all sorts of people and eras. Keep titles coming... I want good reading material.

[Tony James]

Thanks all. I am by no means saying price is the factor. I was just saying with the sort of vague description, I wanted to make sure it had what I wanted. We all know we can't go to Barnes and Noble and thumb through them first. I love getting the perspectives from all sorts of people and eras. Keep titles coming... I want good reading material.

So far as good reading material about peregrines goes, you've had some great advice already.
I'd suggest, reading between the lines, that Ronald Stevens' Observations on Modern Falconry should be first on your shopping list. Perhaps not entirely applicable to your hawking aspirations, but possibly the best thing ever written to acquaint the reader with the peregrine as a hawking partner.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tony James]

Gamehawk is a great book, but is pricey now, (probably $500 plus). Ronald Stevens books have all recently been republished so should be very affordable.

Some others worth considering are:

The Art and Practice of Falconry by the Hon Gerald Lascelles
Hints on Hawking by James Harting
The Falcons Lure and Cure by Symon Latham

The first two were published in the Victorian days, Latham's book was published in the 1600's. It is written in old English which takes a while to get used to, but it is a gem.

Regards

Alex

Hi Alex,

still a Brit at heart eh?
I think you've rolled Lascelles' Art of Falconry and Fisher's Art and Practice of Hawking into one there. But both good books for sure.
Funnily enough, I was looking through the bookshelves earlier and realised that of the hundreds of falconry books, it's the same handful that draw me back time and again.
As someone said earlier, it's worth investing the money required to buy the best of those books.

Hope you're well,

Tony.

[Alex Stokes]

Stevens book has a brilliant chapter on making a falcon to the hood. Well worth getting just for that chapter alone.

Regards

Alex


So far as good reading material about peregrines goes, you've had some great advice already.
I'd suggest, reading between the lines, that Ronald Stevens' Observations on Modern Falconry should be first on your shopping list. Perhaps not entirely applicable to your hawking aspirations, but possibly the best thing ever written to acquaint the reader with the peregrine.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tony James]

Stevens book has a brilliant chapter on making a falcon to the hood. Well worth getting just for that chapter alone.

Regards

Alex

Absolutely.
I'd go so far as to say 'Observations' should be compulsory reading for anyone intending to fly peregrines.
Sadly, at least in today's Britain, with its dumbed down falconry culture, it's not a book that is sought out as it deserves to be. The home life of many falcons, as well as many falconers, would be enhanced by an understanding of what is so easily available in that little book.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Alex Stokes]

Tony,

Your right, well spotted. I'm a sucker for books, and hate to think how much money I have spent over the years.

Correction though-Fisher's book was "Reminiscences of a Falconer", Michell's was The Art and Practice, unless that is there is a book I dont know about!

Regards

Alex
Hi Alex,

still a Brit at heart eh?
I think you've rolled Lascelles' Art of Falconry and Fisher's Art and Practice of Hawking into one there. But both good books for sure.
Funnily enough, I was looking through the bookshelves earlier and realised that of the hundreds of falconry books, it's the same handful that draw me back time and again.
As someone said earlier, it's worth investing the money required to buy the best of those books.

Hope you're well,

Tony.

[Tony James]

Tony,

Your right, well spotted. I'm a sucker for books, and hate to think how much money I have spent over the years.

Correction though-Fisher's book was "Reminiscences of a Falconer", Michell's was The Art and Practice, unless that is there is a book I dont know about!

Regards

Alex

toungeoutI can't believe I made a mistake like that, and especially so while being a smart arse!

[Jack]

Instead of looking for a book specifically on peregrines, just find a good one on training falcons in general. I have flown a small sampling of falcons, like 3 hybrids, 2 peregrines, and a saker, and for the most part they were much the same. I used the very same methods and techniques with them all, and the results were pretty much the same.
In this country we tend to do a lot of different types of hawking that was not done in the old days across the Atlantic. So I think I would look for something that is more related to our kinds of hawking. If you have North American Falconry and Hunting Hawks you don't really need to spend a great deal more on books. Use that money for important stuff.

[Tony James]

Instead of looking for a book specifically on peregrines, just find a good one on training falcons in general. I have flown a small sampling of falcons, like 3 hybrids, 2 peregrines, and a saker, and for the most part they were much the same. I used the very same methods and techniques with them all, and the results were pretty much the same.
In this country we tend to do a lot of different types of hawking that was not done in the old days across the Atlantic. So I think I would look for something that is more related to our kinds of hawking. If you have North American Falconry and Hunting Hawks you don't really need to spend a great deal more on books. Use that money for important stuff.

Hi Jack,

I guess you've read Steven's Observations and Turner's Gamehawk. How do you rate them?

Tony.

[Pedioecetes]

In spite of a huge amount of good material out there, if I could only choose one book it would be "Observations on Modern Falconry" by Ronald Stevens.

[Alex Stokes]

Jack,

Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I feel that there is a huge amount to be gained from studying differing texts on falconry.

Limiting yourself to only one book would deny you access to an awful lot of knowledge.

Regards

Alex


If you have North American Falconry and Hunting Hawks you don't really need to spend a great deal more on books. Use that money for important stuff.

[STait]

I agree totally with you Alex, and Tony, I haven't read Stevens's book but I love Turners book. I'm hoping to get "Observations" in a week or so. I respect many of the guys on here saying how good the book is. I'm never to old to learn something new, or be reminded of effective techniques.

[Tony James]

I agree totally with you Alex, and Tony, I haven't read Stevens's book but I love Turners book. I'm hoping to get "Observations" in a week or so. I respect many of the guys on here saying how good the book is. I'm never to old to learn something new, or be reminded of effective techniques.

Hi Steve,

'Observations' is unlikely to alter what you do in the field, and frankly, given your obvious talents and experience, may alter little or nothing of what you do --- but I'll be waiting with bated breath to hear your thoughts on it.
I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.

I remember talking to Ray about falconry literature, and the merits of various contributions. I told him that 'Observations' had been a revelation to me at the time I read it, and was interested to learn it had been to him also, some twenty years earlier (of course, ground breaking literature appears less ground breaking as its influence takes effect, much as can be seen with Ray's own book Gamehawk, but nonetheless, true classics remain forever relevant).

Sadly, the best of Stevens' observations remain unread by most modern falconers of even limited experience, who have little inclination to read chapters entitled 'Hooding and Manning', 'Taming' and suchlike, believing they have nothing left to learn in that respect.
There are absolute gems littered throughout his book, and if just one of them makes a positive contribution to your falconry, well, I can't wait to hear.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tony James]

Jack,

Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I feel that there is a huge amount to be gained from studying differing texts on falconry.

Limiting yourself to only one book would deny you access to an awful lot of knowledge.

Regards

Alex

Indeed Alex,

a willingness to learn from the experience of others can save many years wasted in pursuit of what has been made freely available.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Alex Stokes]

Tony,

I'm sliding off here on a bit of a tangent, but is Ray still flying falcons? I never heard anything about him after the book was published, other than he was breeding peregrines.

Regards

Alex
Hi Steve,

I remember talking to Ray about falconry literature, and the merits of various contributions. I told him that 'Observations' had been a revelation to me at the time I read it, and was interested to learn it had been to him also, some twenty years earlier (of course, ground breaking literature appears less ground breaking as its influence takes effect, much as can be seen with Ray's own book Gamehawk, but nonetheless, true classics remain forever relevant).

.

[barbary06]

Tony,

I'm sliding off here on a bit of a tangent, but is Ray still flying falcons? I never heard anything about him after the book was published, other than he was breeding peregrines.

Regards

Alex

He does, but in a vastly different manner than as gamehawks. He told me about when I met him last time, please pm me if you want to know.

[Tony James]

Tony,

I'm sliding off here on a bit of a tangent, but is Ray still flying falcons? I never heard anything about him after the book was published, other than he was breeding peregrines.

Regards

Alex

Hi Alex,

Ray's passion, as Bjorn alludes to, is for the classic haut vol in particular, and he spends a good deal of time seeking out spectacular falconry.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Alex Stokes]

Tony/Bjorn,

Interesting to know. I recall him writing about that in one of the concluding chapters in the book.

Maybe he thought he had seen the best of gamehawking and needed a new challenge.

Regards

Alex
He does, but in a vastly different manner than as gamehawks. He told me about when I met him last time, please pm me if you want to know.


Hi Alex,

Ray's passion, as Bjorn alludes to, is for the classic haut vol in particular, and he spends a good deal of time seeking out spectacular falconry.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[STait]

Tony, Stevens book may not change the basics of what I do in regards to training and such, but it sounds informative and well written. I have no doubt there's something in there for me to learn from.

[Mystique]

I love all the suggestions and all the strong opinions. That should be a clue to some to get the books and maybe pick up on something new. If you just happen to get that one "different" BOP then maybe a different perspective or hawking style will help... just don't admit it later. :D All the books I've read that come from the same era can be helpful depending on the areas we live. I don't think its wasting money at all and we all know this lifestyle is not for the money challenged people. Regardless of the fact that ALL books might not help, I love reading about falconry, past and present. We can't lose the history of the sport that makes us all nuts!!!!!

[Tony James]

Tony, Stevens book may not change the basics of what I do in regards to training and such, but it sounds informative and well written. I have no doubt there's something in there for me to learn from.

Hi Steve.

Very few falconry books are without some little nugget that makes them worthwhile (even a book like the Ehon taka kagami, in which only the plates are understandable to me), and Stevens' Observations has many more nuggets than most.
It's no coincidence that the best books are written by falconers who are both intelligent and well read themselves, and I can't help but be fascinated by the influences that shape us all, be that Latham to Turner, or Campbell to Stevens.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[STait]

Yes, I want a copy of Lathams book. Never read it either. I'm sure if I had an extra $10,000 lying around I could get a copy:eek:;).

Cheers,

[Tony James]

Yes, I want a copy of Lathams book. Never read it either. I'm sure if I had an extra $10,000 lying around I could get a copy:eek:;).

Cheers,

Latham's book is a true classic, but it is pricey for sure (even the 1957 Bate & Slice facsimile of the 1633 edition can fetch $1000 or more). But don't despair, a reprint is in the pipeline.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tony James]

"Falconry: art and practice" by Roger Upton is another good book fucosed lonely on the training of the peregrines in the middle of the XX century. Its one of my main favourite books.

"The art of falconry" by Fredrick II is another no time read with excellent knowledge about the training of the peregrines and another falcons. Its another one of my main favourite books.

You will go right with this two books despite that they were published long time ago.

Hi Roberto,

Roger is a friend of mine, who would be touched by your kind words.
I spoke earlier of Latham's influence on Turner, and Campbell's on Stevens, well, I'm sure Roger wouldn't mind me suggesting that Blaine has been a big influence on his falconry (Gilbert Blaine's 'Falconry' is an excellent, no nonsense introduction to falconry, centred largely around his first love the peregrine). Yes, Roger's Principles and Practice is well worth seeking out.

As for Emperor Frederick II's work, what can you say? What an incredible work it is. Written approximately 770 years ago, and still a mine of information. Another true classic.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Pedioecetes]

Tony, will it be in readable English like the new edition of James Campbell's classic? I have a reprint copy of Latham, but it is painful to read! I like the way Ray Turner wrote the original "Gamehawk", because he followed Latham's advice so well and put it down so us normal folks could understand it. I've never seen the second edition of Ray's book. "Gamehawk" is a gem, because Ray wrote about how he figured out how to practice ultra high quality gamehawking under conditions vastly different than any of the British literature on gamehawking have ever described. My take is that his gamehawking of the time is/was as good as it gets and there appears to be a recent jump in quality gamehawking in a number of non-traditional areas by others, perhaps inspired by Ray?

[STait]

I am looking forward to that reprint Tony, please let me know when it's done.

[Jack]

Hi Jack,

I guess you've read Steven's Observations and Turner's Gamehawk. How do you rate them?

Tony.

No, I actually haven't read either book. I have read a few books though, and find that other than wording most tend to be much the same. I would just get a consensus of opinion and go with the one most tend to like best.
I have some old books by people in England, and they are good references, but in most cases they refer to game species we don't have here.

[Jack]

Sometimes you can find these books on line that can be downloaded as ebooks. I gots a couple that way. If you can borrow or otherwise get your hands on some of these old books you can do a reprint. I did one on Bert's treatise a few years ago. Harry loaned me his copy and I did the reprint.

[Tony James]

Tony, will it be in readable English like the new edition of James Campbell's classic? I have a reprint copy of Latham, but it is painful to read! I like the way Ray Turner wrote the original "Gamehawk", because he followed Latham's advice so well and put it down so us normal folks could understand it. I've never seen the second edition of Ray's book. "Gamehawk" is a gem, because Ray wrote about how he figured out how to practice ultra high quality gamehawking under conditions vastly different than any of the British literature on gamehawking have ever described. My take is that his gamehawking of the time is/was as good as it gets and there appears to be a recent jump in quality gamehawking in a number of non-traditional areas by others, perhaps inspired by Ray?

Hi Bob,

I believe there will be some modernisation of the text, but I'm not 100% certain of that.

I'm a big fan of Ray's book, and despite what some folk might say, British gamehawking was transformed by it.
I really enjoy discussing falconry with Ray, who as well as being one of the most knowledgable and well read falconers alive, is blessed with a sense of logic so well developed, and a mind so focussed on what's real, that no BS gets past him.
I've known many of the greats, but Ray is one of a kind.

Something to bear in mind regarding the circumstances under which Ray practiced his gamehawking (as many of us now do too), compared to falconer/authors of the past such as Blaine and Stevens, is the influence of telemetry which was previously unavailable. Blaine trialled his setters less than five miles from my home, but he wouldn't have dreamed of flying his hawks there.
The grounds over which Ray flew his hawks (as well as the quarry he flew at) were, for very good reason, previously considered unsuitable for controlled gamehawking. Those who had tried it, like Guy Aylmer, had met with tremendous difficulties, and it took someone of Ray's single minded talents to establish what could be achieved and how. Thankfully he chose to publish the results.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tony James]

No, I actually haven't read either book. I have read a few books though, and find that other than wording most tend to be much the same.



That's fantastic Jack. I've never read anything so funny in my life. I literally have tears rolling down my cheeks. That's truly fantastic!jaww

PS My son just woke up and asked why I was laughing so much :-)

[Tony James]

I am looking forward to that reprint Tony, please let me know when it's done.

Hi Steve,

you could always read an old copy of the Wall Street Journal. Apart from the wording, it's not dissimilar to Latham;)

Best wishes,

Tony (in fits of giggles)

[rmayes100]

You can get Observations on Modern Falconry as an ebook from Amazon for less than $8. That's a pretty small price to pay for quality falconry content and if you really like it you can buy a nice hardback copy for $32 for your bookshelf.

http://www.amazon.com/Observations-On-Modern-Falconry-ebook/dp/B004S2BX20/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2 (http://www.amazon.com/Observations-On-Modern-Falconry-ebook/dp/B004S2BX20/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2)

[rmayes100]

You can also read large parts of The Art of Falconry by Frederick II courtesy of Google:

http://books.google.com/books?id=TccPuWKAxBkC&lpg=PP1&dq=The%20art%20of%20falconry%20Frederick%20II&pg=PA136#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Tony James]

You can also read large parts of The Art of Falconry by Frederick II courtesy of Google:

http://books.google.com/books?id=TccPuWKAxBkC&lpg=PP1&dq=The%20art%20of%20falconry%20Frederick%20II&pg=PA136#v=onepage&q&f=false

Hi Randy.

The wonders of the internet. And the wonders of Emperor Frederick II, once hailed a wonder of the world.
Within that small section of his work are some truly wonderful examples of details that were considered important enough to lay down in writing then (at no small expense more than seven centuries ago), but are no longer understood.
Perhaps that taster might lead to a handful of falconers buying what is a very good value book?

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Jack]

Jack,

Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I feel that there is a huge amount to be gained from studying differing texts on falconry.

Limiting yourself to only one book would deny you access to an awful lot of knowledge.

Regards

Alex

You are right of course, but for learning to train a falcon it can sometimes cloud the mind trying to seperate the best stuff from the not so best stuff.
Straight up and honest with you. It takes me forever to read a falconry book. I think mostly because I have read much the same in so many other books. I do like to read about different game species though, and hunting it.

[Alex Stokes]

Jack,

There is a lot of truth in that, you're right. It is probably best to start with one or two well respected books and only introduce others as you gain experience.
Because opinions can differ so much, particularly regarding gamehawking, taking in to much has the potential to cause a lot of confusion.

Regards

Alex


You are right of course, but for learning to train a falcon it can sometimes cloud the mind trying to seperate the best stuff from the not so best stuff.
Straight up and honest with you. It takes me forever to read a falconry book. I think mostly because I have read much the same in so many other books. I do like to read about different game species though, and hunting it.

[Alex Stokes]

Tony,

Funny you mention Blaine, I was looking at his book earlier today. I thought then how remiss it was not to have included it in any discussion regarding books devoted to the peregrine.

Regards

Alex


Hi Roberto,

Roger is a friend of mine, who would be touched by your kind words.
I spoke earlier of Latham's influence on Turner, and Campbell's on Stevens, well, I'm sure Roger wouldn't mind me suggesting that Blaine has been a big influence on his falconry (Gilbert Blaine's 'Falconry' is an excellent, no nonsense introduction to falconry, centred largely around his first love the peregrine). Yes, Roger's Principles and Practice is well worth seeking out.

As for Emperor Frederick II's work, what can you say? What an incredible work it is. Written approximately 770 years ago, and still a mine of information. Another true classic.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Alex Stokes]

Hi Bob,

I searched for many years for a copy of Latham and eventually found a copy of Carnie's Bate and Slice edition. It wasn't cheap but it was well worth it.

I cut my teeth on the old English texts with Bert's "Approved Treatise on Hawks and Hawking", (another gem) so I knew I was in for a fairly tough read. It takes a lot of concentration but I read it once and then immediately reread it, just to allow the text to really sink in. There is a huge amount of great information in there, I particularly liked his discussion regarding anti-carrying training. There is no doubt the guy was a very skillful falconer.

If you can, stick with it, it is worthwhile.

Regards

Alex
Tony, will it be in readable English like the new edition of James Campbell's classic? I have a reprint copy of Latham, but it is painful to read! I like the way Ray Turner wrote the original "Gamehawk", because he followed Latham's advice so well and put it down so us normal folks could understand it. I've never seen the second edition of Ray's book. "Gamehawk" is a gem, because Ray wrote about how he figured out how to practice ultra high quality gamehawking under conditions vastly different than any of the British literature on gamehawking have ever described. My take is that his gamehawking of the time is/was as good as it gets and there appears to be a recent jump in quality gamehawking in a number of non-traditional areas by others, perhaps inspired by Ray?

[STait]

Hi Steve,

you could always read an old copy of the Wall Street Journal. Apart from the wording, it's not dissimilar to Latham;)

Best wishes,

Tony (in fits of giggles)

You're killing me Tony....:D:D;)

[STait]

Steve Chindgren gave me my copy of The Art of Falconry by King Fredericks II as a Christmas present when I was 18 (so many years ago) and I dove into it like an otter in a well stocked lake. I entrenched myself in it for months. I love that book. It became the cornerstone of my falconry and it is still very relevant today. There are many falconers that have been in the sport/art for many years that could increase the quality of their falconry if only they would give the book a good read.

You guys really have me looking forward to Stevens' book. I hope to have it before I go camping this weekend.

[sharptail]

No, I actually haven't read either book. I have read a few books though, and find that other than wording most tend to be much the same. I would just get a consensus of opinion and go with the one most tend to like best.
I have some old books by people in England, and they are good references, but in most cases they refer to game species we don't have here.I also got a good laugh out of this! I have read that there are pheasnats and ducks in Texas. Jack, haven't I read about you hawking ducks? You should probably define what you mean by "here" as I am almost sure that I have read about folks hawking grouse in Texas, and Gray Partridge, yes the same gray partridge, are all over the country where I hawk and couldn't be too far from Texas.

[Alex Stokes]

Steve,

I've had Fredrick II's book for a number of years and still haven't read it, all of this praise has me committed now to making it the next book I read.

Thanks

Alex
Steve Chindgren gave me my copy of The Art of Falconry by King Fredericks II as a Christmas present when I was 18 (so many years ago) and I dove into it like an otter in a well stocked lake. I entrenched myself in it for months. I love that book. It became the cornerstone of my falconry and it is still very relevant today. There are many falconers that have been in the sport/art for many years that could increase the quality of their falconry if only they would give the book a good read.

You guys really have me looking forward to Stevens' book. I hope to have it before I go camping this weekend.

[Smeagol]

The book that was of/is the most use to me was GameHawking at Its Very Best.
You get several angles from several different experienced gamehawkers all in one work. Very useful when most people employ a distillation of a number of other peoples methods.
The chapter on duckhawking deserves to go down as an all time classic right up there with anything ever written and it certainly broke new ground in the UK.
Up to that point us duck hawkers were largely flying blind apart from some old NAFA journals and such like.
Definitely the desert island book for any new gamehawker in my view.

Nick

[Alex Stokes]

Is that you Nick?

Alex


The book that was of/is the most use to me was GameHawking at Its Very Best.
You get several angles from several different experienced gamehawkers all in one work. Very useful when most people employ a distillation of a number of other peoples methods.
The chapter on duckhawking deserves to go down as an all time classic right up there with anything ever written and it certainly broke new ground in the UK.
Up to that point us duck hawkers were largely flying blind apart from some old NAFA journals and such like.
Definitely the desert island book for any new gamehawker in my view.

Nick

[Smeagol]

Is that you Nick?

Alex


Hi Alex,

Yes its me (Nick Curry). I get called Smeagol quite often in the office (can do a passable impression of the hobbit creature)

Nick

[Alex Stokes]

Nick,

I thought so, your comment re Connelly's duck hawking chapter seeled it for me. Good to see you on here.

Regards

Alex
Hi Alex,

Yes its me (Nick Curry). I get called Smeagol quite often in the office (can do a passable impression of the hobbit creature)

Nick

[Tony James]

The book that was of/is the most use to me was GameHawking at Its Very Best.
You get several angles from several different experienced gamehawkers all in one work. Very useful when most people employ a distillation of a number of other peoples methods.
The chapter on duckhawking deserves to go down as an all time classic right up there with anything ever written and it certainly broke new ground in the UK.
Up to that point us duck hawkers were largely flying blind apart from some old NAFA journals and such like.
Definitely the desert island book for any new gamehawker in my view.

Nick

Hi Nick,

I remember taking delivery of Gamehawking at its Very Best one saturday morning 20 or so years ago, and taking it with me as I set off to join the cricket team. I started reading as our innings started, and batting well down the order I had a bit of time to wonder at some of the falconry described within it. I can see how any of those chapters might inspire a young falconer.

Funnily enough, about 15 years ago I was asked to write about my duck hawking for the BFC journal, and consciously avoided looking at anything else about the subject until it was complete.
When I did, I discovered that some of the most interesting stuff (to me) relating to duck hawking was written by Frederick II.
If you get a chance to read it, I'd recommend it to you.

Regards,

Tony.

[Smeagol]

When I did, I discovered that some of the most interesting stuff (to me) relating to duck hawking was written by Frederick II.
If you get a chance to read it, I'd recommend it to you.

Regards,

Tony.


Tony,
Thanks for the recommendation but I've read it. Its OK but as an intensely detailed study of waterfowl hawking in both the practical and the lyrical, Connolly's work is king and sums up a golden era of the sport.
We are lucky he turned his knowledge and experience into such beautifully written prose.
The guy was an inspiration to most people now trying to fly ducks over this side of the pond and Id wager quite a few over there too.
Nick

[Tony James]

Tony,
Thanks for the recommendation but I've read it. Its OK but as an intensely detailed study of waterfowl hawking in both the practical and the lyrical, Connolly's work is king and sums up a golden era of the sport.
We are lucky he turned his knowledge and experience into such beautifully written prose.
The guy was an inspiration to most people now trying to fly ducks over this side of the pond and Id wager quite a few over there too.
Nick

I've just re-aquainted myself with the chapter you refer to, and yes, it's very good indeed.
I'm interested to know when and under what circumstances you might have read Frederick II, as I'm surprised by your description of it as being 'OK'?
As with most of the classics, they demand a degree of study rather than a quick read and, if I may, I really would suggest it's worth obtaining a copy of your own.
Often, at a second or subsequent reading, what had formerly been missed or misunderstood becomes clear.

Regards,

Tony.

[Smeagol]

I've just re-aquainted myself with the chapter you refer to, and yes, it's very good indeed.
I'm interested to know when and under what circumstances you might have read Frederick II, as I'm surprised by your description of it as being 'OK'?
As with most of the classics, they demand a degree of study rather than a quick read and, if I may, I really would suggest it's worth obtaining a copy of your own.
Often, at a second or subsequent reading, what had formerly been missed or misunderstood becomes clear.

Regards,

Tony.

Just like all artforms Tony what may be a classic to one may not be to another.
Fred II is an important work overrall no doubt but as a detailed field guide to duckhawking (which is all i required) it is, like Gamehawk, superficial and further examination confirmed this. Im talking purely from a duck hawking perspective. You can't miss or misunderstand what isn't there. But you can begin to convince yourself of some profound subtext if you repeated readings begin to make you cross eyed! Only joking.

Reminisces of a Falconer is my choice for every other form of gamehawking, and Michell for merlins.

I was lucky enough to have a virtually complete falconry library at my disposal in my earlier years and when my self and my mentor were learning the art of waterfowling on the fly virtually, the american works of Beebe, Webster et al and NAFA Journals were our saviours as they gave us detailed assistance in tactics and species differentiation, which simply wasn't available in european literature, and still isn't to this day purely because the potential for duckhawking (incorparating all the species and habitats) is very low. It will always remain a fringe activity.

Nick

[Tony James]

Just like all artforms Tony what may be a classic to one may not be to another.
Fred II is an important work overrall no doubt but as a detailed field guide to duckhawking (which is all i require) it is, like Gamehawk, I found it superficial and further examination confirmed this. Im talking purely from a duck hawking perspective.
Reminisces of a Falconer is my choice for every other form of gamehawking, and Michells for merlins.

I was lucky enough to have a virtually complete falconry library at my disposal in my earlier years and when my self and my mentor were learning the art of waterfowling on the fly virtually, the american works of Beebe, Webster et al and NAFA Journals were our saviours as they gave us detailed assistance in tactics and species differentiation, which simply wasn't available in european literature, and still isn't to this day purely because the potential for duckhawking (incorparating all the species and habitats) is very low. It will always remain a fringe activity.

Nick

I don't think it's within the gift of the individual to bestow the title 'Classic', but rather it comes about through the recognition and acknowledgement of a wider body of peers, over a period of time. Hence the works of Emperor Frederick II, Latham, and Bert can be described as classics without hesitation.
It's an interesting system I suppose, but one that generally works. Jack Mavrogordato's Hawk for the Bush for example, rightly considered a modern classic, yet not so, again rightly in my opinion, his Falcon in the Field.
I love Sir Thomas Sherley's work, and with a date of 1603, and having been written from near 50 years practical experience, no doubt a classic in my opinion. Yet not considered so by the wider falconry community, at least not for now.

Anyhow, regarding duck hawking in the UK, yes, you're right, it is very much a fringe activity when conducted outside of the standards so well laid down by Ray Turner, here and elsewhere I suspect.

As I said earlier, I cannot help but be interested in the influences that shape each of us, and in that respect Emperor Frederick II should be an inspiration to us all, being as he was, open to the advice of all who showed some evidence of good results through their methods.

Tony.

PS I suspect, now your earlier years are behind you, that you would find 'Fred II' more useful, even with regard to duck hawking.

[Smeagol]

As I said earlier, I cannot help but be interested in the influences that shape each of us, and in that respect Emperor Frederick II should be an inspiration to us all, being as he was, open to the advice of all who showed some evidence of good results through their methods.

Tony.

PS I suspect, now your earlier years are behind you, that you would find 'Fred II' more useful, even with regard to duck hawking.

The beauty and reality of falconry Tony is that there is no set path of inspiration from literature.
By that I mean there is no heirarchical (sp) family tree of education that all flows back to one work.
There will be some falconers out there that have never read a book or have never been mentored, yet fly falcons to a very high standard.

Just like 'coaching trees' in the NFL (American guys will know what I mean) not all falconers are derivatives of one system or one book.

Turner admits in his great book that his experience of duckhawking was limited to mallard from ditches encountered occasionally. There is so much more to duckhawking than this that is only referenced/explained as Turner notes, in the american works.
There are nine legal species of waterfowl in the UK. Every one has its own nuances and difficulties, some of which are a world away from mallard in drains. Its a rich branch of gamehawking and we are lucky that the Californians of the 60's and 70's ploughed the furrow and documented their efforts.
Tom Gossards articles from this time also helped me greatly. I only wish that Louis Davis had penned his thoughts on the subject. Any guys out there know more about him?

Fred II may be a 'classic' but not in this field, in my opinion. I'm all about learning from people who get out there and get it done, and just like proper duckhawking is in its infancy (in relative terms) so is its meaningful literature.

Nick

[Tony James]

The beauty and reality of falconry Tony is that there is no set path of inspiration from literature.
By that I mean there is no heirarchical (sp) family tree of education that all flows back to one work.
There will be some falconers out there that have never read a book or have never been mentored, yet fly falcons to a very high standard.

Just like 'coaching trees' in the NFL (American guys will know what I mean) not all falconers are derivatives of one system or one book.

Turner admits in his great book that his experience of duckhawking was limited to mallard from ditches encountered occasionally. There is so much more to duckhawking than this that is only referenced/explained as Turner notes, in the american works.
There are nine legal species of waterfowl in the UK. Every one has its own nuances and difficulties, some of which are a world away from mallard in drains. Its a rich branch of gamehawking and we are lucky that the Californians of the 60's and 70's ploughed the furrow and documented their efforts.
Tom Gossards articles from this time also helped me greatly. I only wish that Louis Davis had penned his thoughts on the subject. Any guys out there know more about him?

Fred II may be a 'classic' but not in this field, in my opinion. I'm all about learning from people who get out there and get it done, and just like proper duckhawking is in its infancy (in relative terms) so is its meaningful literature.

Nick


We all know which comes first of the chicken and the egg, but which of these comes first, the growing book collection or the bigger bookshelf?confusedd
Perhaps AJ might want to add 'Gamehawking at its Very Best' to his list?

[Jack]

I also got a good laugh out of this! I have read that there are pheasnats and ducks in Texas. Jack, haven't I read about you hawking ducks? You should probably define what you mean by "here" as I am almost sure that I have read about folks hawking grouse in Texas, and Gray Partridge, yes the same gray partridge, are all over the country where I hawk and couldn't be too far from Texas.

I have hawked a few ducks, but haven't read much about it in the old books,although it is probably covered in some of the newer books in this country. I suspect that to find a grey partridge in texas you will probably have to buy it. Panhandle pheasant season is only open for a few days, but with the new regs maybe longer, but you pay dearly for that to. Same for the coastal counties, except that the seasons are longer. I don't think you are going to do a lot of grouse hawking here either. We do have snipe and woodcock, but they don't seem to behave the same as they do over there. Besides, I have that down to a science.
I guess I bore easily, because I have books right now that I have only read a bit here and there. I have to learn something new or it is like reading something over and over.

[Jack]

[QUOTE=Alex Stokes;192983]Hi Bob,

I searched for many years for a copy of Latham and eventually found a copy of Carnie's Bate and Slice edition. It wasn't cheap but it was well worth it.

I cut my teeth on the old English texts with Bert's "Approved Treatise on Hawks and Hawking", (another gem) so I knew I was in for a fairly tough read. It takes a lot of concentration but I read it once and then immediately reread it, just to allow the text to really sink in. There is a huge amount of great information in there, I particularly liked his discussion regarding anti-carrying training. There is no doubt the guy was a very skillful falconer.

If you can, stick with it, it is worthwhile.

Regards

Bert had two scribes writing for him as he was almost illiterate, and at least one of them had a problem with his heavy brogue. An example was his calling the creance,cranes.
the scribe spelled it exactly as it sounded to him. Also, the shop where the printing was done used wooden type face, and several pieces were missing. Small case F's were used for S's, and V for U. Once you know that, it is fairly easy reading. When doing the reprint I proof read it a number of times. Like almost every book, some things tend to be left out, and the reader must learn to read between the lines. You can learn a great deal that way.

Printing books was my trade for over 35 years.

[Live Bait]

Stokesy,
Please share...or summerize the highlights. Don't have the book, and always seem to make hard work of hooding the small stuff I fly.

Pete.


Stevens book has a brilliant chapter on making a falcon to the hood. Well worth getting just for that chapter alone.
he
Regards

Alex

[Tony James]

[QUOTE=Alex Stokes;192983]

Bert had two scribes writing for him as he was almost illiterate, and at least one of them had a problem with his heavy brogue. An example was his calling the creance,cranes.
the scribe spelled it exactly as it sounded to him. Also, the shop where the printing was done used wooden type face, and several pieces were missing. Small case F's were used for S's, and V for U. Once you know that, it is fairly easy reading. When doing the reprint I proof read it a number of times. Like almost every book, some things tend to be left out, and the reader must learn to read between the lines. You can learn a great deal that way.



Hi Jack,

I think someone might have been pulling your leg when they told you that tale.;)

Best wishes,

Tony.

[frootdog]

Panhandle pheasant season is only open for a few days, but with the new regs maybe longer, but you pay dearly for that to.

You should know the regs better. In TX with falconry birds, you can take one nonmigratory gamebird/falconry bird/day. That's quail and pheasant. It's been that way for years so the new regs have nothing to do with it.

[Alex Stokes]

I always thought that "cranes" was just the old English word, although I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure also that at the time the small case "f" was commonly used as an "s". I just googled some handwriting from the 1600s and it seems to be the case.

How did you come by the knowledge of the two scribes? I have never read anything like that before.

Regards

Alex


[QUOTE=Alex Stokes;192983]Bert had two scribes writing for him as he was almost illiterate, and at least one of them had a problem with his heavy brogue. An example was his calling the creance,cranes.
the scribe spelled it exactly as it sounded to him. Also, the shop where the printing was done used wooden type face, and several pieces were missing. Small case F's were used for S's, and V for U. Once you know that, it is fairly easy reading. When doing the reprint I proof read it a number of times. Like almost every book, some things tend to be left out, and the reader must learn to read between the lines. You can learn a great deal that way.

Printing books was my trade for over 35 years.

[Alex Stokes]

Pete,

In brief, the hawk is kept hooded for the first few days and during this time is fed through the hood.

Once the hawk becomes acclimatized to eating through the hood, the hood is removed during the meal and replaced before the meal concludes. Every time I have done this the falcon continued to eat, without bating.
The means that the hood is not associated with anything negative (such as the end of a meal). As the falcon becomes more used to your presence, you can then progress to the next stage.

This involves taking the falcon into a room with subdued lighting and walking around and around (Stevens believes the motion calms the hawk) while striking and tightening the braces all without unhooding the hawk. As it becomes used to this, you half unhood the hawk (by tipping the hood forward and then replacing it just before the eyes are uncovered). Again this is done over and over again until the hawk does not resent the action. Finally you unhood the hawk while continuing to walk and then go through the process of half hooding the hawk, initally just bringing the hood up to the hawk's crop (over and over again) and then progressing to bringing the hood up to the point of covering its eyes then removing it, finally you hood the hawk fully. It is a matter of habituation, and has worked well for me. It's not for everyone (lots of people don't like feeding through the hood at all) but it seems very stress free for the falcon and me.

Anyway, don't be so tight, go and buy the book!

Alex



Stokesy,
Please share...or summerize the highlights. Don't have the book, and always seem to make hard work of hooding the small stuff I fly.

Pete.

[Alex Stokes]

Ebay has a matching set of the Bate and Slice editions of Latham and Bert, opening bid is $575. Get them while you can!

Alex


Latham's book is a true classic, but it is pricey for sure (even the 1957 Bate & Slice facsimile of the 1633 edition can fetch $1000 or more). But don't despair, a reprint is in the pipeline.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tony James]

Ebay has a matching set of the Bate and Slice editions of Latham and Bert, opening bid is $575. Get them while you can!

Alex

Thanks for the heads up Alex.

Andy's not kidding when he says they're rare (the Bert in particular), and is offering them at a very good price indeed (I already have good copies of them, but I'll be tempted to have a shot at them if they don't go too high).

As you say, get them while you can.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[bluejack]

Sorry if this post is redundant,
Steve Jones wrote a fine article on training your first peregrine in one of the early issues of American Falconry magazine. If you called him he may be able to send you a copy. It shouldnt cost much and it's well worth the read.
ATB
Keith

[adam norrie]

The Bate & Slice Latham is quite common, I know of four for sale, but As Tony said, the Bert is rare.

[Tony James]

The Bate & Slice Latham is quite common, I know of four for sale, but As Tony said, the Bert is rare.

Hi Adam,

I see there's a couple of copies of that edition of Latham on abebooks, one at $750 and one at $1200 (there's also a 1633 edition that Steve Tait might like;)).
Funnily enough, the copy I have I bought from you just 15 years ago. As you say, the Latham's become available quite regularly, but the Bert's, very rarely.

Best wishes,

Tony.

PS Has anyone ever seen one of the very inexpensive 'print on demand' copies?

[adam norrie]

The 1633 is at a good price, even though a page or two missing. Still worth a punt.

Tony, I saw a Bate & Slice Bert for sale recently, it was just under £150. I phoned the seller only to be told he had just sold it. So disappointed.

[Alex Stokes]

Tony,

I'm not sure who the seller "nyfalconer" is but he regularly seems to get hold of some good books.

I bought my both my 1st edition Mavro's from him, and also a copy of Harting's 1891 reprint of Bert's "Treatise", (the first reprint following the publication of the original in 1619). There were only 100 published and I have never seen another for sale.

Interestingly if you watch the film "The Goshawk" the adaptation of T.H.White's book, a copy of Harting's edition appears in that. White mentions that he had three books Blaine, Lascelles and a copy of Bert, I wonder if he had an original?

I'm going to the Archives in a month or so, I believe they have originals of both Latham and Bert, they are two of things I am most looking forward to seeing.

Regards

Alex


Thanks for the heads up Alex.

Andy's not kidding when he says they're rare (the Bert in particular), and is offering them at a very good price indeed (I already have good copies of them, but I'll be tempted to have a shot at them if they don't go too high).

As you say, get them while you can.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tony James]

Tony,

I'm not sure who the seller "nyfalconer" is but he regularly seems to get hold of some good books.

I bought my both my 1st edition Mavro's from him, and also a copy of Harting's 1891 reprint of Bert's "Treatise", (the first reprint following the publication of the original in 1619). There were only 100 published and I have never seen another for sale.

Interestingly if you watch the film "The Goshawk" the adaptation of T.H.White's book, a copy of Harting's edition appears in that. White mentions that he had three books Blaine, Lascelles and a copy of Bert, I wonder if he had an original?

I'm going to the Archives in a month or so, I believe they have originals of both Latham and Bert, they are two of things I am most looking forward to seeing.

Regards

Alex

Hi Alex,

he's a chap by the name of Andy (I'd better not give his surname), a keen collector who has had some magnificent stuff through his hands.
It sounds like you have a taste for collecting too, what with an 1891 first reprint by Harting (incidentally, produced by him with the help of a loaned original belonging to Gerald Lascelles).
Please send my regards to the chaps at the Archives. They do a wonderful job.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Jack]

[QUOTE=Jack;193050]

Hi Jack,

I think someone might have been pulling your leg when they told you that tale.;)

Best wishes,

Tony.

And which part are you refering to?

[Alex Stokes]

Keith,

There is a link to that article on the "Training a Falcon" thread by Brian D. I agree with you, it's a great article.

Regards

Alex


Sorry if this post is redundant,
Steve Jones wrote a fine article on training your first peregrine in one of the early issues of American Falconry magazine. If you called him he may be able to send you a copy. It shouldnt cost much and it's well worth the read.
ATB
Keith

[Alex Stokes]

Oh dear, oh dear, I never knew of the abe books website. That could very well be my undoing.

Tony you might very well have cost me a fortune.

When my wife finds out, it will be your name I'll be quoting. Good luck!!

Alex


Hi Adam,

I see there's a couple of copies of that edition of Latham on abebooks, one at $750 and one at $1200 (there's also a 1633 edition that Steve Tait might like;)).
Funnily enough, the copy I have I bought from you just 15 years ago. As you say, the Latham's become available quite regularly, but the Bert's, very rarely.

Best wishes,

Tony.

PS Has anyone ever seen one of the very inexpensive 'print on demand' copies?

[Jack]

I always thought that "cranes" was just the old English word, although I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure also that at the time the small case "f" was commonly used as an "s". I just googled some handwriting from the 1600s and it seems to be the case.

How did you come by the knowledge of the two scribes? I have never read anything like that before.

Regards

Alex

[QUOTE=Jack;193050]

I was talking with Kent Carny one day and he showed me some material that he had from the archives. It had a great deal about Bert and a few others. He was a cocksman, fought roosters, ran dogs and bet on horses. He did a lot of stuff that was considered sport. Even rat killing with small dogs. He was suffering from what was likely congestive heart failure, and a knight or some such sent the scribes to take his dictation. Now, I am going on the assumption that this was somewhat correct, or that is how it was presented to me. It sounded reasonable. As for the type thing. Wooden type was hand carved in the day. So it was easier to use a single piece if it did the job. I have seen a lot of old books printed on old presses, and some had it like that and some didn't. I suspect that in this case the type just got lost. It even said that the book was collated and bound in the church yard by the congregation because he didn't have the money to pay it done.
Just for the record. Contrary to what some might think, I do not just make this stuff up as I go. Not at all.
When he spoke of waking or walking his hawks, he did not really go deep into the process. I am thinking it was due to assuming that anyone reading his works would know what he was talking about anyway. I have know of modern day falconers trying to do that process, but it did not work as well as they had hoped. In reading this book, he states that he buys his hawks from dealers in London, who gets the birds from trappers on the mainland. These hawks were in custody for no less than a fortnight. That is about 2 weeks I believe. The hawks were not walked as such for possibly a week after he got them. By then the hawks were most likely in a low condition and taking food freely. Once the waking process was over with, he commented that the only thing left to do was put flesh back on the hawk. You would not have that to worry about with a fat hawk 3 days out of the trap. That is what I mean by reading between the lines.

[Tony James]

Oh dear, oh dear, I never knew of the abe books website. That could very well be my undoing.

Tony you might very well have cost me a fortune.

When my wife finds out, it will be your name I'll be quoting. Good luck!!

Alex

Mmmm. Reminds me of a line from a song called 'The Streak'.
"I said don't look Ethel, but it was too late, she'd already taken a snap-shot".

[Jack]

Sorry if this post is redundant,
Steve Jones wrote a fine article on training your first peregrine in one of the early issues of American Falconry magazine. If you called him he may be able to send you a copy. It shouldnt cost much and it's well worth the read.
ATB
Keith

I have that article. It is called Training Your First Falcon. Not peregrine. It is a very good article too. I think he is a very good falconer.

[Tony James]

[QUOTE=Tony James;193058]

And which part are you refering to?

Hi Jack,

as lovely a story as it is, the printers were not missing any letters, but simply using the characters of the day.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tony James]

[QUOTE=Alex Stokes;193068]I always thought that "cranes" was just the old English word, although I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure also that at the time the small case "f" was commonly used as an "s". I just googled some handwriting from the 1600s and it seems to be the case.

How did you come by the knowledge of the two scribes? I have never read anything like that before.

Regards

Alex



I was talking with Kent Carny one day and he showed me some material that he had from the archives. It had a great deal about Bert and a few others. He was a cocksman, fought roosters, ran dogs and bet on horses. He did a lot of stuff that was considered sport. Even rat killing with small dogs. He was suffering from what was likely congestive heart failure, and a knight or some such sent the scribes to take his dictation. Now, I am going on the assumption that this was somewhat correct, or that is how it was presented to me. It sounded reasonable. As for the type thing. Wooden type was hand carved in the day. So it was easier to use a single piece if it did the job. I have seen a lot of old books printed on old presses, and some had it like that and some didn't. I suspect that in this case the type just got lost. It even said that the book was collated and bound in the church yard by the congregation because he didn't have the money to pay it done.
Just for the record. Contrary to what some might think, I do not just make this stuff up as I go. Not at all.
When he spoke of waking or walking his hawks, he did not really go deep into the process. I am thinking it was due to assuming that anyone reading his works would know what he was talking about anyway. I have know of modern day falconers trying to do that process, but it did not work as well as they had hoped. In reading this book, he states that he buys his hawks from dealers in London, who gets the birds from trappers on the mainland. These hawks were in custody for no less than a fortnight. That is about 2 weeks I believe. The hawks were not walked as such for possibly a week after he got them. By then the hawks were most likely in a low condition and taking food freely. Once the waking process was over with, he commented that the only thing left to do was put flesh back on the hawk. You would not have that to worry about with a fat hawk 3 days out of the trap. That is what I mean by reading between the lines.

Hi Jack,

I wonder if you might be getting confused with Colonel Thornton?

Best wishes,

Tony.

[adam norrie]

Hi Alex,

You will be astonished at the amount of dealers and sites selling falconry books. They will get you into all sorts of trouble, especially with the wife.
My wife just turns a blind eye now, she says, there is no helping me.
I thought for once I would ask her opinion when considering buying an expensive book, she replied, you will buy it anyway. I did, but at least I tried to get her involved.

[Tony James]

Hi Alex,

You will be astonished at the amount of dealers and sites selling falconry books. They will get you into all sorts of trouble, especially with the wife.
My wife just turns a blind eye now, she says, there is no helping me.
I thought for once I would ask her opinion when considering buying an expensive book, she replied, you will buy it anyway. I did, but at least I tried to get her involved.

Adam,

were you honest about the price of it though?:eek:

Sorry AJ, we've gone a little off track.

[Alex Stokes]

Adam,

I have been searching through the website Tony mentioned and I was really surprised about how many 1st editions are out there for sale.
Now where to find the $80,000 for the 1st edition of "Traite de Fauconnerie".

I wonder whether my wife would mind if I remortgaged the house?

Regards

Alex
Hi Alex,

You will be astonished at the amount of dealers and sites selling falconry books. They will get you into all sorts of trouble, especially with the wife.
My wife just turns a blind eye now, she says, there is no helping me.
I thought for once I would ask her opinion when considering buying an expensive book, she replied, you will buy it anyway. I did, but at least I tried to get her involved.

[Jack]

[QUOTE=Jack;193165]

Hi Jack,

I wonder if you might be getting confused with Colonel Thornton?

Best wishes,

Tony.

No, I don't know anything about a col. Thornton. I think the copy of Bert's treatise that I did the reprint on even makes reference to the 2 scribes. Also to the church congregation doing the colating for him.
As for the type thing, it could be you are right, but as a printer for over half my life I have done a lot of reading and study on my trade and it starts way back when stonelith and wooden type were the modes of printing. One thing you didn't do, and that was to mix type when you had to use another letter to replace the proper one. You went with the one you had the most type for. Printing was a very serious business. I have done it myself.

[adam norrie]

Adam,

were you honest about the price of it though?:eek:

Sorry AJ, we've gone a little off track.

You are right Tony, we have wondered off track, Book collecting needs it's own thread. amennn

[STait]

Hi Adam,

I see there's a couple of copies of that edition of Latham on abebooks, one at $750 and one at $1200 (there's also a 1633 edition that Steve Tait might like;)).
Funnily enough, the copy I have I bought from you just 15 years ago. As you say, the Latham's become available quite regularly, but the Bert's, very rarely.

Best wishes,

Tony.

PS Has anyone ever seen one of the very inexpensive 'print on demand' copies?

Tony, how many hoods would I have to make to get that first edition??

[Alex Stokes]

Steve,

It's $12,350 +pp.

So 82 hoods with toad skin panels.
130 regular dutch hoods.
99 hoods with lizard skin panels.

Go for the toad skin, you can save on postage!

Alex


Tony, how many hoods would I have to make to get that first edition??

[STait]

That's doable:D:D;)confusedd

[Chris Proctor]

That's doable:D:D;)confusedd

That would be around 1,088 hours of hood work, totally doable. Once I hit 1000 hours of hood making each month I just inject my fingers with viagra to keep them going, have you tried this yet Steve?

[Tony James]

[QUOTE=Tony James;193169]

No, I don't know anything about a col. Thornton. I think the copy of Bert's treatise that I did the reprint on even makes reference to the 2 scribes. Also to the church congregation doing the colating for him.
As for the type thing, it could be you are right, but as a printer for over half my life I have done a lot of reading and study on my trade and it starts way back when stonelith and wooden type were the modes of printing. One thing you didn't do, and that was to mix type when you had to use another letter to replace the proper one. You went with the one you had the most type for. Printing was a very serious business. I have done it myself.

Hi Jack,

I was trying to give you an out my friend;).

Take a look at Harting's introduction to the second edition of 1891 (reprinted again in the edition of 1969) for further information about Bert.
Please bear in mind that the earliest reprint of Bert's treatise, by Harting, was NOT a facsimile copy, although he did make the effort to remain true to the original type, including the use of what we would consider an incomplete lower case f as an s (the f used as an f is a different one to that used as an s). You may also be interested to know that the 1633 Latham uses the same characters, as does the first edition of Campbell of 1773 (perhaps there was a gang of disaffected knights stealing lower case s's from printers up and down the British Isles for one and a half centuries)?

Please Jack, I'd like you to know there is no malice in my posts, and no intent to portray you as a fool. It's simply that it's all too easy for nonsense to become accepted as fact through repetition, even when repeated in good faith.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tony James]

You are right Tony, we have wondered off track, Book collecting needs it's own thread. amennn

Yes, a secret thread where wives cannot see:eek:

[Tony James]

Tony, how many hoods would I have to make to get that first edition??

A few Steve, a few. Get stiching, and let's see if we can find a copy with a more realistic price tag;)

[Tony James]

That would be around 1,088 hours of hood work, totally doable. Once I hit 1000 hours of hood making each month I just inject my fingers with viagra to keep them going, have you tried this yet Steve?

I daren't ask what you block your hoods on:eek:

[adam norrie]

I found one for £1650.00, 1633.toungeout

[Chris Proctor]

I daren't ask what you block your hoods on:eek:


Now that'd be something....the largest hood ever made.

[Mystique]

I like the suggestions. Some get more into a debate about what is better but it's all good. I love abebooks. I've got several books for next to nothing even when shipped from the UK. I even got an excellent condition of Compleat Falconer for only $40 the other day.

[STait]

That would be around 1,088 hours of hood work, totally doable. Once I hit 1000 hours of hood making each month I just inject my fingers with viagra to keep them going, have you tried this yet Steve?

Chris, I don't know how long you spend making a hood but my hourly figure is much less than 1,000 hours for 140 hoods, which is close to what I'd have to make. Doesn't matter though, my wife would not go along with such a project.

No, I haven't tried the viagra for that or any other purpose. I might star though.toungeout

[STait]

A few Steve, a few. Get stiching, and let's see if we can find a copy with a more realistic price tag;)

Tony, I am stitching my britches off:D:eek:

[Chris Proctor]

No, I haven't tried the viagra for that or any other purpose. I might start though.toungeout

Ha, well I think that just comes with age...it's happens to the best of us though, give me a call if you need some moral support mooon

[sharptail]

Ha, well I think that just comes with age...it's happens to the best of us though, give me a call if you need some moral support mooonOr would that be 'immoral support'?

[TiercelR]

Hi Roberto,

Roger is a friend of mine, who would be touched by your kind words.
I spoke earlier of Latham's influence on Turner, and Campbell's on Stevens, well, I'm sure Roger wouldn't mind me suggesting that Blaine has been a big influence on his falconry (Gilbert Blaine's 'Falconry' is an excellent, no nonsense introduction to falconry, centred largely around his first love the peregrine). Yes, Roger's Principles and Practice is well worth seeking out.

As for Emperor Frederick II's work, what can you say? What an incredible work it is. Written approximately 770 years ago, and still a mine of information. Another true classic.

Best wishes,

Tony.
Hi Tony. The book by Roger Upton likes me so much because his words go direct to the point, and it is full of the very best advise and illustrations. I do not mentioned the books by Ronald Stevens (Observations ...) not the book by Turner (Gamehawk ...) because these were mentioned before of my post, but also these books are in my very favourite books too !

I still waiting for the reprint of the Latham´s book that was rumoured in the another forum. And also the book by Blaine is another jewel !

I like it so much the classical film "The gentle falcon" where Roger Upton and anothers well knowed falconers fly their falcons. The first time i had knowledge about the existence of the falconry was when once this film was transmited (talked in spanish idiom without subtitles) by a national tv channel here in Mexico when i´m had 11 years old, so this film was my very first contact and first influence in my lifetime falconry experience. Thanks, regards, Roberto.

[paulushilarius]

Ebay has a matching set of the Bate and Slice editions of Latham and Bert, opening bid is $575. Get them while you can!

Alex


Paperback at Amazon for under $18!!

http://www.amazon.com/Lathams-falconry-faulcons-lure-books/dp/1171278063/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1308121060&sr=8-3

[paulushilarius]

Hi Adam,

I see there's a couple of copies of that edition of Latham on abebooks, one at $750 and one at $1200 (there's also a 1633 edition that Steve Tait might like;)).
Funnily enough, the copy I have I bought from you just 15 years ago. As you say, the Latham's become available quite regularly, but the Bert's, very rarely.

Best wishes,

Tony.

PS Has anyone ever seen one of the very inexpensive 'print on demand' copies?

Is this the print on demand book you mean? Under $18!!

http://www.amazon.com/Lathams-falconry-faulcons-lure-books/dp/1171278063/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1308121060&sr=8-3

[Tony James]

Is this the print on demand book you mean? Under $18!!

http://www.amazon.com/Lathams-falconry-faulcons-lure-books/dp/1171278063/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1308121060&sr=8-3

Hi Paul,

yes, that's the kind of thing.
It's funny, but in the computerised world we live in, books, particularly nice books, have a magic that's hard to define.
When I was young, I didn't appreciate the magic of books, and my only interest was in the information they contained (and the pictures of course). I remember taking my copy of Hawk for the Bush to be signed one day, and Mavro telling me how he disliked to poor quality of the reprints --- I nodded at the right moment, but in truth it simply didn't matter to me at that time.
That said, a very inexpensive paper back of any good book would be very useful to use as a working copy. A 1633 Latham might not be the best place to use a highlighter pen:eek:.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[AK Rev]

Thanks for the Amazon link to the reprint. That's the ONLY way I'll be able to get that book.

[nebli]

Ray Turner I rate it first .
close behind Stevens one ,reminiscence of a falconer is one of my very favorite book even out of the falconry world.
I haven't got Edd books yet so can say anything about it .
I would add an original one that is in pursuit of the peregrine by Dick Treleaven he was a falconer as well as a keen ornithologist and his inside view on wild peregrine falcons really help me a lot in understanding peregrine falcons better , other disciplines can sometimes help us in ours.

[Pedioecetes]

Yes Juan, Dick Treleaven's books are gems, so is J.A. Baker's "The Peregrine". I also agree with you on Major Fischer's "Reminiscences of a Falconer", it speaks from the heart of an obviously passionate falconer.

[nebli]

what is wonderfull about some of those falconers is that we could probably spend wonderfull time together be it frederic II , major fisher and others
time, mentality and probably language would not be a barrier.
forgot also a grand book from Dan Coover can't remember the exact the title
but that's a very nice approach of flying in cast , flying passage tiercel, and flying at mourning doves 3 topics off great interest all by themselves and here applied to tundrius peregrines in the best possible way.

[AK Rev]

a grand book from Dan Coover can't remember the exact the title
but that's a very nice approach of flying in cast , flying passage tiercel, and flying at mourning doves 3 topics off great interest all by themselves and here applied to tundrius peregrines in the best possible way.

I don't have this one and I'm not familiar with it. If anyone knows the particulars, let us know. Thanks.

[Pedioecetes]

Hi Bryan,
"Oh, Those Wonderful Hawks" by Dan Cover printed in 1996. He sold them himself. A delightful account of Dan's life as a falconer.

[AK Rev]

Thanks Bob. Hopefully, I can find a copy of it. Don't look up Dan COOVER on Amazon. You'll find stuff that is, uh, of a different subject.

[AK Rev]

Thought I had a copy of Dan's book located at the Archives. I was looking at an older book list. It's been sold. If anyone knows of one that is available, let me know.

[STait]

Hey Tony, Alex, and others. I received my new copy of Ronald Stevens' book "Observations" and I had a enough time to read the last chapter titled "Gyrfalcon". I have to say I love it. He is absolutely spot on with his description of the gyrfalcon and all of it's qualities as well as faults. He has a great manner of writing and I'm sure I'll be reading it all weekend while out camping. There was only one small section that dated the chapter when he talked about pigeons and frounce. I've got hoods to make but I don't know if I will get any done, because I can't put the book down.

Anyway, thanks for this thread and this great recommendation.

[Pedioecetes]

Hi Steve,
Good to hear you are reading "Observations...". I love that book for its wisdom built on lots of experience and lots of creative and critical thinking. The gyr chapter is remarkably good even by today's standard. If you can access them, he wrote three articles that add to or expand that chapter. "The Gyrfalcon" in the 1955 BFC Journal, "The Gyrfalcon" in the Dec. 1956 Falconry News and Notes" and "Gyrfalcons - Some Conclusions" in the Dec. 1958 BFC Journal. A lot of repetition, but some new little nuggets in all of them.

I have little experience with gyrs, but when I flew the one's I had I referred to Steven's on many occasions. His chapter on hawk food changed a lot of what I did many years ago, and have followed to this day.

Enjoy the rest of the book.

[STait]

Oh man, Bob, now you've done it. Where in the world would I get those articles??

[dliepe]

Hi Steve,
Good to hear you are reading "Observations...". I love that book for its wisdom built on lots of experience and lots of creative and critical thinking. The gyr chapter is remarkably good even by today's standard. If you can access them, he wrote three articles that add to or expand that chapter. "The Gyrfalcon" in the 1955 BFC Journal, "The Gyrfalcon" in the Dec. 1956 Falconry News and Notes" and "Gyrfalcons - Some Conclusions" in the Dec. 1958 BFC Journal. A lot of repetition, but some new little nuggets in all of them.

I have little experience with gyrs, but when I flew the one's I had I referred to Steven's on many occasions. His chapter on hawk food changed a lot of what I did many years ago, and have followed to this day.

Enjoy the rest of the book.

Right on. Stevens "Observations", was and is, a great influence on the day to day handling of my falcons. Although his perfection is hard to achieve it gives us something to shoot for everytime we go out to pick up our falcons.
I loved his writings on Ghengis and how he described the personality the gyrfalcons possess as compared to other large falcons.
This book alone taught me proper hooding, carrying, blocking, making in and picking up your falcon ect ect........ The wisdom in this book is timeless. A must read for all those younger longwingers who think they might know it all.....:D
Pure Genious!!!

[STait]

David, you just answered a question I was going to post. "How many of you have read Stevens' "The taming of Genghis"?? I had read it was about a jerkin and since I'm getting another one I'd like to read some unfamiliar literature on them.

Is it as good as "Observations"? It appears to be written much earlier.

[Pedioecetes]

"Laggard" came out in 1953. "Taming of Ghenghis" in 1956. I've got it in my mind that "Observations..." came out in 1956, but could be wrong. My copy was a reprint from 1970. I think the late Barrie Watson was involved in it. It is basically an exact copy of the original text with a nicer cover and no publishing info anywhere on it. I think Ronald Steven's writings convey the concept of "the gentleman's sport" in a way lost in present falconry, which sometimes resembles a race, for something.

Dave, you are right when you suggest that his standard needs more of a place in today's falconry.

[STait]

Bob, I totally agree with you, and him about "a gentleman's sport", and I get the impression he expects falconers to approach all aspects of falconry as a Gentleman. And yes, much of that is lost in falconry today.

Thanks for your insight,

[Tony James]

"Laggard" came out in 1953. "Taming of Ghenghis" in 1956. I've got it in my mind that "Observations..." came out in 1956, but could be wrong. My copy was a reprint from 1970. I think the late Barrie Watson was involved in it. It is basically an exact copy of the original text with a nicer cover and no publishing info anywhere on it. I think Ronald Steven's writings convey the concept of "the gentleman's sport" in a way lost in present falconry, which sometimes resembles a race, for something.

Dave, you are right when you suggest that his standard needs more of a place in today's falconry.

Hi Bob,

I believe (based on book reviews of the time) you're right about the date for 'Observations'. As well as my reading copy I have a first edition, which is a very basic affair with staples holding it together (which I don't believe had a printed date of publication).

Regarding 'Genghis', I was just looking at photographs of the gyrs that together went to make him up (it was only fairly recently I was told there was no singular gyr called Genghis, rather he was an amalgamation of others).
These pictures are from Geoffrey Pollard's albums dating from 1950-53, and show the gyrs being lowered from the eyrie through to being cast off on the Longmynd. Wonderful stuff.

The notion of falconry being practiced by gentlemen seems to be largely frowned upon nowadays, but falconry would surely benefit if it was practiced in a more gentlemanly manner.
Rather ironic really, given that the very word gentleman is said to have been the title of he who flew the falcon gentle.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Alex Stokes]

Steve,

I think the "Genghis" book is a great one, it goes into a lot of detail about the process he used to man his gyr. It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I loved it.

Regards

Alex
David, you just answered a question I was going to post. "How many of you have read Stevens' "The taming of Genghis"?? I had read it was about a jerkin and since I'm getting another one I'd like to read some unfamiliar literature on them.

Is it as good as "Observations"? It appears to be written much earlier.

[Alex Stokes]

Hear, hear, I would love to see a return to the days of old when things seem to have been done in a more gentlemanly way. Sad to say, I think those days are gone for good.

Alex


[QUOTE=STait;193619]Bob, I totally agree with you, and him about "a gentleman's sport", and I get the impression he expects falconers to approach all aspects of falconry as a Gentleman. And yes, much of that is lost in falconry today.

Thanks for your insight,

[Alex Stokes]

Tony,

I didn't realise this, I thought the book was based on his training of the jerkin "Gibbun". Was there any even a "Genghis"?

Alex
Hi Bob,

I believe (based on book reviews of the time) you're right about the date for 'Observations'. As well as my reading copy I have a first edition, which is a very basic affair with staples holding it together (which I don't believe had a printed date of publication).

Regarding 'Genghis', I was just looking at photographs of the gyrs that together went to make him up (it was only fairly recently I was told there was no singular gyr called Genghis, rather he was an amalgamation of others).
These pictures are from Geoffrey Pollard's albums dating from 1950-53, and show the gyrs being lowered from the eyrie through to being cast off on the Longmynd. Wonderful stuff.

The notion of falconry being practiced by gentlemen seems to be largely frowned upon nowadays, but falconry would surely benefit if it was practiced in a more gentlemanly manner.
Rather ironic really, given that the very word gentleman is said to have been the title of he who flew the falcon gentle.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tony James]

Tony,

I didn't realise this, I thought the book was based on his training of the jerkin "Gibbun". Was there any even a "Genghis"?

Alex

Hi Alex,

I'm told by Roger that 'Genghis' was an amalgamation of Gibbun, Norge, and at least one other (perhaps Jarl or Laila)?

Normally I like to have evidence at hand before passing on a tale, but in this case I'm just a second hand messenger.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[frootdog]

Thanks Bob. Hopefully, I can find a copy of it. Don't look up Dan COOVER on Amazon. You'll find stuff that is, uh, of a different subject.

You know because you said something 10 people just looked it up.toungeout

[AK Rev]

I'm here to provide entertainment.

Hey Krys, find me one of his books...just sell me yours!

[Alex Stokes]

Tony,

Interesting, I didn't realise he had flown so many gyrs. Do you know what happened to them all and did any make good game hawks?

Alex


Hi Alex,

I'm told by Roger that 'Genghis' was an amalgamation of Gibbun, Norge, and at least one other (perhaps Jarl or Laila)?

Normally I like to have evidence at hand before passing on a tale, but in this case I'm just a second hand messenger.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[adam norrie]

Tony,

I didn't realise this, I thought the book was based on his training of the jerkin "Gibbun". Was there any even a "Genghis"?

Alex

Hi Alex,

As you have found out, Ronald Stevens was a little clever in writing his books. One of his other books, Laggard, there are places and characters the he wrote about that had their names changed.
Bee cottage is really Lake cottage situated at the end of a large artificial body of water in front of Walcot hall. Ronald had to stay there after WWII as the army were still occupying Walcot.

Page 211. Robert is really Frank Muirden who was Ronalds professional falconer. Before the war, Frank was with Gilbert Blaine in Islay. When Blaine gave up falconry, Frank went to Ronald Stevens.

Page 213. The Plateau is the Long Mynd grouse moor.

Page 217. Edward is really William Humphrey, probably the most famous and successful breeder and trainer of the English Setter of modern times. He made 43 International field trial champions.

Page 221. Frogs' gutter is pole cottage. it was the only building on top of the Longmynd.

The list goes on, but I will stop there. one year during the off season I used to go to Geoffrey Pollard's every day to make good all his enclosures before his falcons went in. Obviously during those times we used to have long talks about when he started with Ronald Stevens. Great days and great memories.

[STait]

Very interesting stuff guys, I love to hear all this history. Wait, would a Gentleman use the word "stuff"?:D

Seriously, I really love to hear about these well known falconers, and I will be ordering "Ghenghis" after I'm done reading "Observations". I'm very impressed with the knowledge some of you have about these guys and Tony, some day I need to take a peek at your book collection.

Best,

[Alex Stokes]

Hi Adam,

Really interesting information, I knew about Pole Cottage, such a shame that it was demolished. I saw a photo of it (I think it was on the IFF), with Stevens, Mavro and a couple of others outside, come to think of it one of them may have even been William Humphrey.

How nice to have been able to spend time with Geoff Pollard, guys like him were our link to the past and inevitably as time goes on they become fewer and fewer. I was fortunate to spend a couple of days with Kent Carnie at the Canadian Meet last year and he has some great stories to tell, he spoke warmly of his times hawking with Pollard.

Alex


Hi Alex,

As you have found out, Ronald Stevens was a little clever in writing his books. One of his other books, Laggard, there are places and characters the he wrote about that had their names changed.
Bee cottage is really Lake cottage situated at the end of a large artificial body of water in front of Walcot hall. Ronald had to stay there after WWII as the army were still occupying Walcot.

Page 211. Robert is really Frank Muirden who was Ronalds professional falconer. Before the war, Frank was with Gilbert Blaine in Islay. When Blaine gave up falconry, Frank went to Ronald Stevens.

Page 213. The Plateau is the Long Mynd grouse moor.

Page 217. Edward is really William Humphrey, probably the most famous and successful breeder and trainer of the English Setter of modern times. He made 43 International field trial champions.

Page 221. Frogs' gutter is pole cottage. it was the only building on top of the Longmynd.

The list goes on, but I will stop there. one year during the off season I used to go to Geoffrey Pollard's every day to make good all his enclosures before his falcons went in. Obviously during those times we used to have long talks about when he started with Ronald Stevens. Great days and great memories.

[adam norrie]

Hi Alex,

It was through David Frank that I met Geoffrey Pollard, as well as fixing his enclosures I went grouse hawking with him on a few occasions. Great times.
We have to spend time with the "old boys", that is the only way to glean those little bits of info that means so much. Whether it's about training techniques or other falconers of the past.

In Laggard, Page 267, John is in fact Geoffrey Pollard.

Hi AJ, Apologies for contributing to your thread going off track.

[Alex Stokes]

Adam,

That's some encyclopedic knowledge you have there! I'm going to look up that passage, as it is always interesting to see these stories in context.

I wonder why Stevens was so reticient about naming individuals?

AJ, Likewise I seem to have contributed significantly into steering this thread somewhat off course, but the information coming forward is so fascinating. I know most threads tend to "drift" somewhat, and I hope you will allow the latitude for this to continue.

Alex


Hi Alex,

It was through David Frank that I met Geoffrey Pollard, as well as fixing his enclosures I went grouse hawking with him on a few occasions. Great times.
We have to spend time with the "old boys", that is the only way to glean those little bits of info that means so much. Whether it's about training techniques or other falconers of the past.

In Laggard, Page 267, John is in fact Geoffrey Pollard.

Hi AJ, Apologies for contributing to your thread going off track.

[Yeomanfalconer]

I agree totally with you Alex, and Tony, I haven't read Stevens's book but I love Turners book. I'm hoping to get "Observations" in a week or so. I respect many of the guys on here saying how good the book is. I'm never to old to learn something new, or be reminded of effective techniques.

Ronald Stevens was an avian fan of a variety of species. He enjoyed the imprint eyass falcon for the tameness they displayed. He found passage peregrines sad, unhappy with their life. Michell offers much more information on passage falcons. Seperate the two according to what you ant to get.

[Tony James]

Ronald Stevens was an avian fan of a variety of species. He enjoyed the imprint eyass falcon for the tameness they displayed. He found passage peregrines sad, unhappy with their life. Michell offers much more information on passage falcons. Seperate the two according to what you ant to get.

Hi Eric,

I'm not sure there's a need to separate them so.
Both that you mention offer wonderful information and advice based on their own experience and preferences. Some aspects will have been better understood by one or the other, but both offer very useful and thought provoking insight.
I'm inclined to agree with Alex in his assertion that it's worth reading as much as possible to get a broad education. For example, A Hawk for the Bush is not intended to relate to the peregrine, yet there is information in it that would benefit anyone flying peregrines.
For what it's worth, I believe the real value of Observations is in regard to the home life and hooding of falcons rather than the actual hawking, but other's will be inspired by different aspects.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[dliepe]

How about a book to learn some field craft. I like Joe Roy III book, Duck Hawking. Touches on most of the subtleties on hawking pond ducks right down to the species. Sure he wasn't the first to master the art but he hits a homerun on all the finer points of duckhawking. Assuming that most peregrines become duck hawks this is a good book to look at.
Conolly wrote some great stuff as well, in Game Hawking At Its Very Best I think. He tore up California back in the day.......a true legend.

[AK Rev]

Both of Joe's books are good. My only complaint is his inclusion of political & environmental subjects.

[Martin Hollinshead]

Hi Alex,

As you have found out, Ronald Stevens was a little clever in writing his books. One of his other books, Laggard, there are places and characters the he wrote about that had their names changed.
Bee cottage is really Lake cottage situated at the end of a large artificial body of water in front of Walcot hall. Ronald had to stay there after WWII as the army were still occupying Walcot.

Page 211. Robert is really Frank Muirden who was Ronalds professional falconer. Before the war, Frank was with Gilbert Blaine in Islay. When Blaine gave up falconry, Frank went to Ronald Stevens.

Page 213. The Plateau is the Long Mynd grouse moor.

Page 217. Edward is really William Humphrey, probably the most famous and successful breeder and trainer of the English Setter of modern times. He made 43 International field trial champions.

Page 221. Frogs' gutter is pole cottage. it was the only building on top of the Longmynd.

The list goes on, but I will stop there. one year during the off season I used to go to Geoffrey Pollard's every day to make good all his enclosures before his falcons went in. Obviously during those times we used to have long talks about when he started with Ronald Stevens. Great days and great memories.
Hi Adam,
Do you ever get out Walcot Hall way? I pass it quite often and took advantage of an open-garden day some time back to explore a little. Strange to wander about and think of Stevens walking the same paths and training his hawks in the adjacent fields.
Same for the Long Mynd. I’m up there quite a lot too – though never on a weekend due to the amount of people it attracts (In summer the road across the top sees it like Blackpool beach on a good day!). I wonder what Stevens would think of all the activity?
And yet, walk the Mynd mid-week especially in the colder months, and the desolate charm Stevens would have known, is still there. Go up to the site of Pole Cottage and gaze out over the vast high terrain and for a second, just a second, was that the tinkle of a hawk bell…..
Martin

[Yeomanfalconer]

Hi Eric,

I'm not sure there's a need to separate them so.
Both that you mention offer wonderful information and advice based on their own experience and preferences. Some aspects will have been better understood by one or the other, but both offer very useful and thought provoking insight.
I'm inclined to agree with Alex in his assertion that it's worth reading as much as possible to get a broad education. For example, A Hawk for the Bush is not intended to relate to the peregrine, yet there is information in it that would benefit anyone flying peregrines.
For what it's worth, I believe the real value of Observations is in regard to the home life and hooding of falcons rather than the actual hawking, but other's will be inspired by different aspects. Stevens had some bird friends that tapped at the window to be let in during a rain storm, as surely as he had friends who wanted to go slay a grouse.

Best wishes,

Tony.
There exists a fairly wide feeling of tame falcon vs. wild inclinatiion falcon.I have had passage peregrines, where the bond is at most, controlled I continually have to real Pokie to conform to my desires. Now in the molt, Pokie is bateing at the first bird flushed from the bird feeder in the morning, He wants to rip the head off of western tanagers. His wings are beating so fast.

[Tony James]

There exists a fairly wide feeling of tame falcon vs. wild inclinatiion falcon.I have had passage peregrines, where the bond is at most, controlled I continually have to real Pokie to conform to my desires. Now in the molt, Pokie is bateing at the first bird flushed from the bird feeder in the morning, He wants to rip the head off of western tanagers. His wings are beating so fast.

Hi Eric,

each to their own I guess.

Personally I like tame hawks (tame enough for me at least), and more than that I like well mannered hawks --- and tame, well mannered hawks, that excel in the field, well, I like them a lot!

I'm afraid I don't have a real affinity with imprinted falcons (and certainly couldn't have tolerated some of the falcons that RS enjoyed), but have friends who have no interest in hacked eyasses or passage hawks. As I say, each to their own.

But the point I was trying to make regarding those books, and all good falconry books, is that they each have something very positive to offer the intelligent reader.

Have a good next season with Pokie,

best wishes,

Tony.

[STait]

Now that I've read a fair amount of "Observations" I have a clearer view of the kind of falconer RS was and I love many of his observations. I especially like the paragraphs talking about the best falconers taming their birds with the least amount of bates as possible. I've stressed that point enough on this forum so you already know I'm an old fashioned falconer, agreeing with the old English falconers and I'm very grateful for their contributions to the quality of my personal falconry. They were my mentors when I was a kid getting into falconry, along with a few friends that I tried to exemplify.

You guys were right, it's a great book.

[Rocky]

I've got a 1st ed of 'Observations', its been read alot, brown spots on the cover and the spine is browned, the staples are rusty, as they usually are, there's writing on the title page, it was a working book and it shows it, but its still holding together very well and internally it is very clean. $45 and free shipping, if no one wants it it goes into the CHC raffle donation box. Just thought I'd throw it out there. PM me if you want it.

_______________________________________

Rocky
"..., having made them an object of special care"

[Alex Stokes]

Rocky,

I sent you a PM.

Regards

Alex


I've got a 1st ed of 'Observations', its been read alot, brown spots on the cover and the spine is browned, the staples are rusty, as they usually are, there's writing on the title page, it was a working book and it shows it, but its still holding together very well and internally it is very clean. $45 and free shipping, if no one wants it it goes into the CHC raffle donation box. Just thought I'd throw it out there. PM me if you want it.

_______________________________________

Rocky
"..., having made them an object of special care"

[Rocky]

Well, the book is spoken for. I'm glad to see it go to some one who will enjoy and appreciate its history. Thanks,

___________________________________

Rocky
"..., having made them an object of special care."

[Yeomanfalconer]

There exists a fairly wide feeling of tame falcon vs. wild inclinatiion falcon.I have had passage peregrines, where the bond is at most, controlled I continually have to real Pokie to conform to my desires. Now in the molt, Pokie is bateing at the first bird flushed from the bird feeder in the morning, He wants to rip the head off of western tanagers. His wings are beating so fast.
I personally enjoy imprints and passage. I am sure I would just fall in love with a well-hacked peregrine. I enjoy the books and articles written about both (all). What I am experiencing now with my imprint (albiet crazy man tiercel) is what has been resently described by some Canadians in the latest Hawk Chalk. The tame hacked, imprint peregrine.
Insight is to be gained by a number of books on the subject of peregrines in research and recovery. Enderson's "Blue Meanie" is one such work. I think the time is ripe for a modern update dealing with all the ages of peregrines that are available now-days.

[Tony James]

I personally enjoy imprints and passage. I am sure I would just fall in love with a well-hacked peregrine. I enjoy the books and articles written about both (all). What I am experiencing now with my imprint (albiet crazy man tiercel) is what has been resently described by some Canadians in the latest Hawk Chalk. The tame hacked, imprint peregrine.
Insight is to be gained by a number of books on the subject of peregrines in research and recovery. Enderson's "Blue Meanie" is one such work. I think the time is ripe for a modern update dealing with all the ages of peregrines that are available now-days.

Hi Eric,

I agree.

Although I'm an avid fan of falcons that were parent raised, there are other options that have not been the subject of such comprehensive study.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Yeomanfalconer]

Hi Eric,

I agree.

Although I'm an avid fan of falcons that were parent raised, there are other options that have not been the subject of such comprehensive study.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Lynn Oliphant"s, awesome article, just what I experienced with Pokie this past year. He was almost too well trained to the car, by October he was bringing passerines out of the sky to the roof rack.

[Alex Stokes]

I read Lynn's article in the Hawk Chalk and found it fascinating. I am sure his book will be an interesting new insight for anyone interested in hacking.

Mark Williams bought a tiercel anatum last year which was hacked and trained by Lynn, a really nice flying hawk. Mark is delighted with him and believes he is one of the best falcons he has had, testament to Lynn's skill.

Regards

Alex


Lynn Oliphant"s, awesome article, just what I experienced with Pokie this past year. He was almost too well trained to the car, by October he was bringing passerines out of the sky to the roof rack.

[igmontos]

this really belongs to the sticky thread on hack! regards, ignacio.

[Alex Stokes]

Lynn's method is more than just hacking, he trains the hawks at the same time, take a look at the most recent Hawk Chalk. He specializes in anatum peregrines so it will be useful for anyone training a peregrine (or any other longwing I would think) who has the scope to hack.

Regards

Alex


this really belongs to the sticky thread on hack! regards, ignacio.

[Robin]

I recieved my copie of Observations today...will be some nice reading.

[igmontos]

actually don't have access to hawk chalk, but looks very interesting. sure besides forums like this.. make for a nice reading too. regards.

[sugezwolf]

My vote is for The Flying of Falcons by Ed Pitcher. Once I'd bought this book I immediately sold my entire falconry library that I'd accumulated over 30 years.

Gerry x

[outhawkn]

So what do you mean if you have the space and birds? Just getting some incite...$85 for a book that doesn't have a lot of a description on the website. The example pages is more talking about his experience rather than how I've read other sample pages. I hope I don't come across as bagging on the guys, its just not he usual type sample readings I'm used to. More incite please.... LOL.... thanks.

Its not worth the money IMO.....

[outhawkn]

If you're looking for a book on the peregrine written in the UK, you can't do better than "Observations on Modern Falconry" by Robert Stevens.

Stevens knew the peregrine.

Great chapter on hooding. Small book, lots of knowledge inside.

Good luck, Dan.


and its available on Kindle.....;)

[Alex Stokes]

Gerry,

That might have been a little hasty!

I am reading Pitcher's book at the moment, and there is a lot of interesting material contained within it. How pratical his method is though I'm not sure?

The dazzling pitches he talks of seem to rely to a large degree on thermals, and a lot of people don't fly in areas where you can take advantage of them, at least not season round.

It will be interesting to see how much success is achieved when people follow his method, particularly in the absence of "jubilant air".

Alex


My vote is for The Flying of Falcons by Ed Pitcher. Once I'd bought this book I immediately sold my entire falconry library that I'd accumulated over 30 years.

Gerry x

[sugezwolf]

Gerry,

That might have been a little hasty!

I am reading Pitcher's book at the moment, and there is a lot of interesting material contained within it. How pratical his method is though I'm not sure?

The dazzling pitches he talks of seem to rely to a large degree on thermals, and a lot of people don't fly in areas where you can take advantage of them, at least not season round.

It will be interesting to see how much success is achieved when people follow his method, particularly in the absence of "jubilant air".

Alex


Hi Alex - agreed about the thermals but I use the kite as a substitute for those!

Gerry x

[Alex Stokes]

Gerry,

Good luck with the kiting aspect.

How are you going to deal with Pitcher's theory of "high and wide" in order to create the "unseen assasin"? Most of the UK just isn't conducive to that sort of flight.

Regards

Alex


Hi Alex - agreed about the thermals but I use the kite as a substitute for those!

Gerry x

[sugezwolf]

Gerry,

Good luck with the kiting aspect.

How are you going to deal with Pitcher's theory of "high and wide" in order to create the "unseen assasin"? Most of the UK just isn't conducive to that sort of flight.

Regards

Alex


Hi Alex - I always prefer 'high & wide' for duck hawking flights in any case so won't present a problem.

Gerry x

[Alex Stokes]

Gerry,

With the limited field of view due to nature of the landscape, how will you witness any of the flight? I would also imagine "high and wide" will bring check far more into the equation?

Alex


Hi Alex - I always prefer 'high & wide' for duck hawking flights in any case so won't present a problem.

Gerry x

[sugezwolf]

Gerry,

With the limited field of view due to nature of the landscape, how will you witness any of the flight? I would also imagine "high and wide" will bring check far more into the equation?

Alex


Hi Alex - when I say wide I mean not as wide as high so that unless I am stood behind a tree (which can happen) I can still see the stoop. Also given the flight of mallards - which tends to be rather vertical - then the quarry should be high enough in the air by the time the stooping falcon connects to allow a good view of the end result.

Gerry x

[Alex Stokes]

Ah, makes sense.

Alex


Hi Alex - when I say wide I mean not as wide as high so that unless I am stood behind a tree (which can happen) I can still see the stoop. Also given the flight of mallards - which tends to be rather vertical - then the quarry should be high enough in the air by the time the stooping falcon connects to allow a good view of the end result.

Gerry x

[R Velarde]

Gerry,

That might have been a little hasty!

I am reading Pitcher's book at the moment, and there is a lot of interesting material contained within it. How pratical his method is though I'm not sure?

The dazzling pitches he talks of seem to rely to a large degree on thermals, and a lot of people don't fly in areas where you can take advantage of them, at least not season round.

It will be interesting to see how much success is achieved when people follow his method, particularly in the absence of "jubilant air".

Alex


Hello Alex. I hope things are going well for you. I just wanted to make a few comments about your questions. It seems like it is a misunderstanding about what the book is about.
Your are asking how practical this method is. Most falconers are looking at it as if the only way to fly these falcons is "Out of the Heavens".
I thought we mentioned in the book that the mental attitude was what we were after. No the height. Now if you have both great!
For example we think it is better to have a falcon flying kind of low 600 to 800 feet but with the right attitude, as if it knew it owned the sky, than one at 2500 feet looking in the bag.
And yes you are right, at the beginning the thermals are available and it is a nice way to have them learn success from such a height, but later on you have to mix flying early in the morning, later in the day, etc... giving them the opportunity to learn to fly on all conditions.
There are plenty of flights in the book that Ed talks about his falcons going out of sight by pumping and never stoping, but maybe those are only stories.
A good example and interesting to hear the story from Mark Williams is this one.
He came down to the 2012 Vernal NAFA meet. A few days before Robert set of a meeting "The Malad Skytrials" at this ranch for falconers to have a get together while they were on their way to Vernal.
Mark said it was in the single digits that morning with a few inches of fresh snow from the night before.
The first falconer flying was Steve Chindgren, and as usual his birds flew like no others, always the most consistent and very high. Mark's thoughts were "He had already witnessed the winner".
Mark said, after that things kept getting better and better. Hybrids, gyrs, peregrines were flown, etc...
The two birds that won the Malad Skytrials were flown by Daryl's kids. His nine and an eleven year old boys. The only thing these kids have ever seen is falcons coming out of the sky with Daryl and Ed's birds, and are not afraid to let them fly.
Mark said both birds disappeared in the sky, out pumped, out climbed, and out flew by far all other contestants. I think they had 15 flights that day.
The books has been translated into spanish now and there are a few people interested in translating it into german and italian. I think that is way down the road.
Alex, it is always good to read your comments. Thank you.
Ricardo

[MD Hawkman]

If you fly a Falcon ~ Get this book ! Well worth the money , if I had alot of money I'd get the Leather bound edition ! But I am a Falconer with a meager retirement benefit. So be it " Is this not the sport of Kings ? Lucky to be alive & flying today .