Hooding your bird

[Mandragen]

There might be another discussion about this somewhere, so if there is please point me in that direction and forgive my redundancy. I come from a very new school of training background. Most of my training experience also comes with training animals that are much bigger and stronger than a person. Not only are they bigger and stronger, but when you are training marine mammals you are also in their element. The ability to manipulate them for different circumstances is minimal. With my background being what it is, there are many things within falconry that I sometimes have a hard time getting my head around.

When an action isn't done often with an individual, there is definitely a need to manipulate the situation so that things are done safely and stress is eliminated, or minimal. There is definitely a need to give me medication to put my big butt to sleep if I were ever to need an operation. However, if it's something that is done often, should we not as trainers do our best to desense that action?

I guess there are many different instances where this is my questions, but the one that pops up is in using a hood. Unless it is a situation that isn't common, what is the need to hood the bird? I understand that the hood should be trained for these rare occasions which it could help keep stress to a minimum, I'm not trying to say the hood is all bad or shouldn't be trained.

[FredFogg]

I am sure someone else can answer this better than I but I will give my opinion. As an animal trainer and if you have worked with birds, you should know that most birds (daytime hunters) become dormant in the dark. They relax, calm down, pull up a foot and mostly sleep in the dark. The hood serves the purpose of putting a bird in the dark, per say. This reduces stress, keeps the bird calm and also allows the falconer to do things needed while the bird is hooded (coping, equipment changes or adjustments, medical purposes, etc.). Probably the biggest advantage of hooding a bird is during transportation to the field. These are a few of the things that come to mind for me. As I said, I am sure others have a better explanation.

[Saluqi]

So are you asking why hood your bird if the bird is not being stressed by the current situation? The answer is there is no reason, but are you sure what the situation will be in five minutes?

There are many reasons to hood a bird, in my mind the top reason is for the bird's own safety and well being. Raptors are visual animals, so being able to control what they see helps the falconer eliminate any possible negative experiences. Since our ability to understand how a bird interprets what it sees is limited it is better to use caution in new or stressful situations. In any given situation it may not be possible to desensitize a bird, using any of a number of training methods, so the hood is a tool that eliminates the possibility of a negative outcome. Take driving in a vehicle for example, your bird might be fine sitting on perch as you drive down the road, but then what happens if a big truck roars by? Or you get stuck in a traffic jam and suddenly the leisurely drive becomes something else?

The hood is a tool that all birds should be trained to, and used more than people think is necessary.

[PeteJ]

Probably should ask anyone that has a bird at flying weight and being driven to the field where potential normal prey is seen along the way. The bird will use up all of its available energy bating at the passing prey. Thing about birds is that they are highly reactive to stimuli which is one of the reasons that they are generally readily trained compared to some other life forms. But, they do not normally have much ability to turn this reactivity off or tune it out, it isn't in their nature. You will thank them profusely for their reactive nature when you get out there and are hawking with one. Because trust me, when the conditions are uncomfortable for you and your bird is in a tree being calm and non-reactive to anything you are offering it...you'll be cursing profusely!
It can be a completely different story with some species when they are not at flying weight. Some will sit comfortably and ride across town through traffic etc., while other species (accipiters for example) would probably bate themselves to death in fear due to their very intolerant nature when above their flying weight and caught in slow traffic with full visual disclosure.

[Mandragen]

I am sure someone else can answer this better than I but I will give my opinion. As an animal trainer and if you have worked with birds, you should know that most birds (daytime hunters) become dormant in the dark. They relax, calm down, pull up a foot and mostly sleep in the dark. The hood serves the purpose of putting a bird in the dark, per say. This reduces stress, keeps the bird calm and also allows the falconer to do things needed while the bird is hooded (coping, equipment changes or adjustments, medical purposes, etc.). Probably the biggest advantage of hooding a bird is during transportation to the field. These are a few of the things that come to mind for me. As I said, I am sure others have a better explanation.

I have worked with a few birds but mostly the tropical versions. I do understand the concept of the hood and why it work, in most cases. I guess I say most cases because put a hood on mine and it spends the next few hours trying to get it off, pretty funny actually. However, I feel that hooding my bird at this point is more stressful than not, which is something I am working on because I know how important it is. I think coping, minor equipment changes/adjustments, and most minor routine medical purposes should be trained, any lack of desense in these areas seems to me a lack of effort on the trainer. Do we put ourselves under every time we cut our nails, brush our teeth, visit the dentist for a clean up, change our clothes, or visit the doctor for a routine exam? Do we do the same for our dogs and cats, or other animals that are in our care, kids included? Other than the car ride, which I don't think you should have a bird just sitting there unhooded, why do we press so much on which side people should stand on when walking, or why do people hood the bird from the car to the woods?

[Mandragen]

So are you asking why hood your bird if the bird is not being stressed by the current situation? The answer is there is no reason, but are you sure what the situation will be in five minutes?

There are many reasons to hood a bird, in my mind the top reason is for the bird's own safety and well being. Raptors are visual animals, so being able to control what they see helps the falconer eliminate any possible negative experiences. Since our ability to understand how a bird interprets what it sees is limited it is better to use caution in new or stressful situations. In any given situation it may not be possible to desensitize a bird, using any of a number of training methods, so the hood is a tool that eliminates the possibility of a negative outcome. Take driving in a vehicle for example, your bird might be fine sitting on perch as you drive down the road, but then what happens if a big truck roars by? Or you get stuck in a traffic jam and suddenly the leisurely drive becomes something else?

The hood is a tool that all birds should be trained to, and used more than people think is necessary.

Correct you are unsure what the situation will be in five minutes, but it's our job to be aware as much as possible to try and anticipate what might happen an deal with that. I mean you can't predict the future, but that's not a reason to be scared of it. We are visual animals, most animals are visual animals, although not to the extent that a bird might be. When working with other birds, they do tend to notice things that we do not, but it is possible to learn to shape your behavior to be more aware of these things and to adjust your training to help overcome it. I had one bird that just freaked over planes that were unnoticable most of the time to me, but we got over it eventually, which to me seems much more productive than to put a hood on that particular birds because I couldn't control when a plane might fly over head.

I agree that there are things that just can't seem to be desensitized. Sometimes you just run into things you can't get around with certain individuals, and yes this is a great time for a hood. I think that having any animal free in a vehicle is a hazard that isn't worth the risk.

[PeteJ]

If it is spending hours trying to get the hood off then probably that isn't funny, but probably the hood is not fitting well. As for where to stand when around someone else when they are fist hunting their bird? Most lookie loos do not keep up appropriately to be on the backside of your bird and the bird will notice it and will be distracted by that person. If they could talk this sort of behavior (looking back over there shoulder at the laggard) they would say "Keep up or go home!" As such it is better to be off to the far side of the hawk with the falconer in between, less distracting there and the hawk will treat you like you don't matter one bit to them.

[Mandragen]

Probably should ask anyone that has a bird at flying weight and being driven to the field where potential normal prey is seen along the way. The bird will use up all of its available energy bating at the passing prey. Thing about birds is that they are highly reactive to stimuli which is one of the reasons that they are generally readily trained compared to some other life forms. But, they do not normally have much ability to turn this reactivity off or tune it out, it isn't in their nature. You will thank them profusely for their reactive nature when you get out there and are hawking with one. Because trust me, when the conditions are uncomfortable for you and your bird is in a tree being calm and non-reactive to anything you are offering it...you'll be cursing profusely!
It can be a completely different story with some species when they are not at flying weight. Some will sit comfortably and ride across town through traffic etc., while other species (accipiters for example) would probably bate themselves to death in fear due to their very intolerant nature when above their flying weight and caught in slow traffic with full visual disclosure.

Again, I don't want anyone to set any animal in a vehicle going down the road and it not be safely restrained for everyone's safety. I would suggest that most animals are reactive to stimuli, just depends on what that stimuli is, and it's also different between individuals. What other animals are not readily trained? Are you sure they don't tune it out or over react because they don't get desensed properly? I see so much emphasis on reinforcing the bird for hunting, no wonder that's what it wants to get out and do, it baits because it's not getting anything for sitting on the glove. The bird is trained that you ain't gettin' nothin' here (lol like that NC slang), so why would it not try to get out there as soon as it can see? Does anyone have this problem but still reinforce heavily/regularly while they sit in the car (which you shouldn't do) or hang out on the glove?

[Mandragen]

If it is spending hours trying to get the hood off then probably that isn't funny, but probably the hood is not fitting well. As for where to stand when around someone else when they are fist hunting their bird? Most lookie loos do not keep up appropriately to be on the backside of your bird and the bird will notice it and will be distracted by that person. If they could talk this sort of behavior (looking back over there shoulder at the laggard) they would say "Keep up or go home!" As such it is better to be off to the far side of the hawk with the falconer in between, less distracting there and the hawk will treat you like you don't matter one bit to them.

Hours was an exageration, but it was pretty funny. I don't put it on and annoy her with it for my own entertainment, I'm not mean. I had my sponsor check it out and he hasn't seen anything wrong with the hood, like I said we are working on it. I will check into the fitting again just to make sure that it's right, thank you for pointing this out. I walk with her on the fist occasionally and I have a friend that also goes with us nine times out of ten. My friend is also a professional animal trainer with experience in marine mammals, birds, primates, etc. Sometimes he will walk right next to the hawk, maybe 2-3 feet off her back and she doesn't seem to care, I don't even hold her jesses.

[Saluqi]

Correct you are unsure what the situation will be in five minutes, but it's our job to be aware as much as possible to try and anticipate what might happen an deal with that. I mean you can't predict the future, but that's not a reason to be scared of it. We are visual animals, most animals are visual animals, although not to the extent that a bird might be. When working with other birds, they do tend to notice things that we do not, but it is possible to learn to shape your behavior to be more aware of these things and to adjust your training to help overcome it. I had one bird that just freaked over planes that were unnoticable most of the time to me, but we got over it eventually, which to me seems much more productive than to put a hood on that particular birds because I couldn't control when a plane might fly over head.

I agree that there are things that just can't seem to be desensitized. Sometimes you just run into things you can't get around with certain individuals, and yes this is a great time for a hood. I think that having any animal free in a vehicle is a hazard that isn't worth the risk.


Hi Oliver,

You asked why hood a bird, Pete and I gave you some reasons why hooding is used and you think it would be better to train the bird not to react to these stimuli. I contend that it's a better use of my time and resources to have a bird that is solid to the hood, rather then attempt to prepare the bird not to react to an almost infinite number of circumstances that might arise at home, in transit, and in the field. As a falconer, and not an animal trainer, I like to focus all of my training on activities that lead to the taking of wild game with my bird, and the hood is a tool allows me to do so - I simply do not have the time or desire to train for every eventuality, it's that simple I'm lazy.

[PeteJ]

Hours was an exageration, but it was pretty funny. I don't put it on and annoy her with it for my own entertainment, I'm not mean. I had my sponsor check it out and he hasn't seen anything wrong with the hood, like I said we are working on it. I will check into the fitting again just to make sure that it's right, thank you for pointing this out. I walk with her on the fist occasionally and I have a friend that also goes with us nine times out of ten. My friend is also a professional animal trainer with experience in marine mammals, birds, primates, etc. Sometimes he will walk right next to the hawk, maybe 2-3 feet off her back and she doesn't seem to care, I don't even hold her jesses.
Can I assume this is a Redtail? They often are not nearly as reactive as some of the falcons and accipiters which is why they are favored for the newly initiated.
Another thing to keep in mind, sometimes, as annoying as it might be, it can be beneficial and actually safer for the bird to be somewhat leery and reactive. There are situations out in the field where being totally at ease will get them killed...for instance by a gunner that needs to 'plink' something, or perhaps an unknown dog, or cat, or car, or train, etc.. A good bit of falcony is based on balancing tameness with just enough edge of the wild to allow the bird to exhibit the behaviors that we find so fascinating about them. If we just wanted a nice looking bird to hang out with, we'd all have parrots right?

[Mandragen]

Hi Oliver,

You asked why hood a bird, Pete and I gave you some reasons why hooding is used and you think it would be better to train the bird not to react to these stimuli. I contend that it's a better use of my time and resources to have a bird that is solid to the hood, rather then attempt to prepare the bird not to react to an almost infinite number of circumstances that might arise at home, in transit, and in the field. As a falconer, and not an animal trainer, I like to focus all of my training on activities that lead to the taking of wild game with my bird, and the hood is a tool allows me to do so - I simply do not have the time or desire to train for every eventuality, it's that simple I'm lazy.

I'm sorry Paul, I hope I didn't offend you in anyway. I appreciate all your guys' feed back and the reason I started the thread/debate was to learn from those of you that know more about this than I do. I am running into all sorts of things within this hobby/sport/lifestyle, which I respect deeply, that just contridict what I have been taught.

I am one of the laziest people that I know, there isn't anyway anyone can be worse, lol. I just think training these things can be done rather easily and it's all about balance of reinforcement. Training is really to make life easier and not more difficult. We had birds that would present wings for inspection, or feet for coping the feet. Our dolphins would turn upside down and hold their breath, presenting their tail flukes, as long as it took to draw blood. I've seen a dolphin slide up on a stretcher and allow 10+ people to pick it up and walk it around. One of our dolphins needed extra water each day, and in the middle of the show she would allow me to stick a tube all the way down to her stomach and funnel water (they don't do the drinking thing). Sometimes these behaviors don't come easy, sometimes they do, but you never know until you try. It really only takes a bit of reinforcement for doing them.

[Mandragen]

Can I assume this is a Redtail? They often are not nearly as reactive as some of the falcons and accipiters which is why they are favored for the newly initiated.
Another thing to keep in mind, sometimes, as annoying as it might be, it can be beneficial and actually safer for the bird to be somewhat leery and reactive. There are situations out in the field where being totally at ease will get them killed...for instance by a gunner that needs to 'plink' something, or perhaps an unknown dog, or cat, or car, or train, etc.. A good bit of falcony is based on balancing tameness with just enough edge of the wild to allow the bird to exhibit the behaviors that we find so fascinating about them. If we just wanted a nice looking bird to hang out with, we'd all have parrots right?

Yes, it is a RT! This is an excellent point, and maybe it will be different with other birds in the future, I'm excited to figure that out.

This post was exactly what I was looking for, sometimes you don't know until you read it. I can respect this thought and it makes perfect sense. Thank you!

[FredFogg]

Hi Oliver,

You asked why hood a bird, Pete and I gave you some reasons why hooding is used and you think it would be better to train the bird not to react to these stimuli. I contend that it's a better use of my time and resources to have a bird that is solid to the hood, rather then attempt to prepare the bird not to react to an almost infinite number of circumstances that might arise at home, in transit, and in the field. As a falconer, and not an animal trainer, I like to focus all of my training on activities that lead to the taking of wild game with my bird, and the hood is a tool allows me to do so - I simply do not have the time or desire to train for every eventuality, it's that simple I'm lazy.

Paul, you are not lazy, you are just using common sense. Oliver is looking at this from an animal trainers perspective. He is used to training animals. In reality, we aren't training our raptors to do what we want, we are training them to adapt to us and what will be happening when we take them to the field and what will happen in the field and to allow us to participate with them. Sure, there are some that train their raptors to turn in a circle for a tidbit and to follow a laser beam, but is that for falconry or for their amusement. I am like you, I just want to have a relationship with my birds that allows me to participate with them in the field while they catch game. Give Oliver a couple years of actually doing falconry and it will be much more clearer to him.

Oh yeah, Oliver, I never hooded my birds the first 3 years I was a falconer. I never had any problems, things worked just fine for me. But the reason I didn't was I was told you didn't need to hood a red-tail or kestrel. I decided I wanted to learn how to hood a bird and the next red-tail I got I hooded. I will never have another bird that I won't hood. You say you are lazy, well, hooding a bird just makes it that much easier for the falconer.

[Mandragen]

Paul, you are not lazy, you are just using common sense. Oliver is looking at this from an animal trainers perspective. He is used to training animals. In reality, we aren't training our raptors to do what we want, we are training them to adapt to us and what will be happening when we take them to the field and what will happen in the field and to allow us to participate with them. Sure, there are some that train their raptors to turn in a circle for a tidbit and to follow a laser beam, but is that for falconry or for their amusement. I am like you, I just want to have a relationship with my birds that allows me to participate with them in the field while they catch game. Give Oliver a couple years of actually doing falconry and it will be much more clearer to him.

Thanks Fred, you guys do have more experience than I, and that does not go ignored. I can't help but see the world through animal training eyes, it's what I know and it's my passion. I do my best to try and remember that that might not be the correct way all that time. It's why I asked here to get a different side and opinion. It is quite possible that after a few years I will have a much different point of view, much like your own.

[Nighthawk]

Excellant thread for a new guy like me, Thanks

[Chris Proctor]

There are certain people here that never hood their birds with anything other than putting them inside a giant hood. The actual hood with a bird trained right and exposed to the hood each day "correctly" is one of the best tools a falconer has with him in the field (or anywhere). Looking through the birds eyes (like you mentioned), they see things that they accept and things they don't. They don't see what's in the middle very often. If the bird doesn't accept it, it wants to fly away from it. If you are out in the field, in the garage, in the backyard or weighing your bird in your room and something comes into their field of view that they don't accept, you get to make things worse by not letting them escape the situation (excessive baiting). The hood lets them escape and calms them down. If you don't hood them in these situations, all you are doing is re-enforcing that you are a bad guy in "their eyes" by keeping them in a mode of panic.

Your bird scratching at the hood constantly is most likely an issue caused by you not providing a quality hood for the bird. This could be due to rubbing on the lips and cere, too close to the eyes, pressure, feather pinching and a number of other issues. When you teach a bird to accept the hood, you must provide a quality hood, otherwise you are suffering the bird through something possibly painful.

If you are all thumbs when it comes to hooding, then you need someone who knows how to hood a bird correctly to show you.

[outhawkn]

Excellent points Fred,Paul,Pete, and Chris......clapp
I agree that I'm there to hunt, not spend countless hours teaching my bird to accept every situation.:D

[Jason123]

Say your in the field with your red-tail and you keep working downwind. You end up a lot further from your truck then you antisipated. Now you call the bird down to end the day because no game is out today, but you have a 20 min walk back to the car into 25 mph winds that came out of nowwhere. You can struggle to hold your bird that is tryng to fly everywhere, walk backwards and use your body the shield from the wind, or with a 20min walk ahead slip on the hood and get back with an arm that doesn't feel like its been attatched to a kite in a hurricane. Just one example of many and thats with a red-tail now try it with a longwing which could be a walk a whole lot further then that.

[Mandragen]

These are all great points, and some things that I have not even thought about.

Chris, I've seen this type of behavior before from a cockatoo, so I can relate to that. We had one that was just stressed about everything, a hood would have probably benefited me then, lol. It seems as though the general consensus that the hood just doesn't fit right or isn't "quality". I will order another one immediately and see if I can't get a better one.

As far as behind infront of 25mph gusts 20min from the car, that sounds like a nightmare!

[passagejack]

As far as behind infront of 25mph gusts 20min from the car, that sounds like a nightmare!
__________________
If you think thats a nightmare then you are in for one wild ride my friend!;)
(welc)to falconry!

[NMHighPlains]

As far as behind infront of 25mph gusts 20min from the car, that sounds like a nightmare!

Happens a lot. My peregrine killed a pigeon well over a mile from the truck. I had to run out there because a golden eagle just lifted off the butte behind him. Then it was a mile walk back to the truck into headfirst 25 mph winds (I have a Weather Wizard on the house).

The hood is a tool. The birds know what when it comes off, there's food to be had. It's also pretty useful when you need to walk OUT to an area before letting the bird (long or short wing) go and don't want them bating or going up just yet. Hoods are essential when flying several birds on subsequent slips. When I flew 3 HH by myself, it was common for 1-2 birds to not participate in the kill. They got hooded and set on a bush to think about life while the working birds got fed. And so on....

Then, there's lots of times I _don't_ hood. I used to take my prairie/peregrine to school and leave her in the camper shell while I went to class (taught class, actually). She behaved and I frequently left her unhooded. I could put a small bath pan on the platform and she'd have a little bath and be all preened and ready to go come flying time. But before leaving the parking lot, I'd hood her.

[ericedw]

There might be another discussion about this somewhere, so if there is please point me in that direction and forgive my redundancy. I come from a very new school of training background. Most of my training experience also comes with training animals that are much bigger and stronger than a person. Not only are they bigger and stronger, but when you are training marine mammals you are also in their element. .

They are certainly bigger and stronger but they also can't fly away or leave the tank. Go trap a wild one and train it in the ocean ;)

But seriously, I've trained and consulted a little on marine mamal training. And it's a huge advantage that you're operating in a VERY controled and consistent environment.

As far as the hood. It's an invaluable tool that most birds do not object to. And it's there for safety and to reduce the stress on the bird. There are times when an animal needs to be transported and very few of them do that well with it.

I did bird shows for years and when you would travel to a new venue you would spend days or weeks getting some of the birds to get comfortable with certain doorways, halls or even strange equipment. I wish I could have hooded parrots, storks, cranes and the rest. The hood is a wonderful tool that few birds object to once they are trained to it. Much like blinders on a horse it has a calming effect on the bird and makes the journey less stressful. (whether the journey is 100 miles or 100 feet)

It's not hard to train a red tail to the hood. Most falconers don't do enough "training" (I know I don't) to the hood, we get to the point of being able to get it on and that's about it. But I have had birds that I worked with more and at the approach of the hood would close the membrane over their eye and lean forward into the hood. I'm sure you could accomplish this with all birds if you wanted.

[Mandragen]

They are certainly bigger and stronger but they also can't fly away or leave the tank. Go trap a wild one and train it in the ocean ;)

They can most certainly get away, or they could kill you. Some of the marine mammals I worked with were old enough that they were from the wild, and there are also places where they work with their animals in the ocean.


But seriously, I've trained and consulted a little on marine mamal training. And it's a huge advantage that you're operating in a VERY controled and consistent environment.

You are right about advantages of having certain situations being "controled", but I don't see it any different with these birds. There are some situations that are more controled and some that are not.


As far as the hood. It's an invaluable tool that most birds do not object to. And it's there for safety and to reduce the stress on the bird. There are times when an animal needs to be transported and very few of them do that well with it.

I agree 100%, transport is a huge stressor on most animals.


I did bird shows for years and when you would travel to a new venue you would spend days or weeks getting some of the birds to get comfortable with certain doorways, halls or even strange equipment. I wish I could have hooded parrots, storks, cranes and the rest. The hood is a wonderful tool that few birds object to once they are trained to it. Much like blinders on a horse it has a calming effect on the bird and makes the journey less stressful. (whether the journey is 100 miles or 100 feet)

Desense isn't easy, and sometimes seems impossible. I think maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to carry the hood over to other bird species.


It's not hard to train a red tail to the hood. Most falconers don't do enough "training" (I know I don't) to the hood, we get to the point of being able to get it on and that's about it. But I have had birds that I worked with more and at the approach of the hood would close the membrane over their eye and lean forward into the hood. I'm sure you could accomplish this with all birds if you wanted.

This is exactly the point I want to try and make it with any bird of mine. I'm shootin' for getting that darn thing to put the hood on itself!

[passagejack]

Not to sound rude but this topic seems to be a moot point????????
As most have stated it would be SO much less time consuming, easier and less stressful for the raptor if we took the time to properly hood train them. This way they could benefit in numerous ways. They could be in the field quicker, which is what its all about, as well as not associate the falconer with the negative experiances around it.

I personlly like a little fear of things in my falcons. I've seen and heard of raptors being killed by farmers dogs and cats other raptors as well as passing vehicles. If I had taken the time to "train" my birds to be numb to all of these negative things so that I would not have to hood it ,I would have a lot more dead raptors to speak of. I can not tell you how many times I have had a big falcon flight on huns end up a half mile away in a farm yard with strange dogs coming right at my falcon on its kill. If my falcon had been trained to fear nothing so that the hood was not needed then I would have lost alot of them to these common dangers! It is so much more benificial to the raptor and falconer to just hood train. Path of least resistance for me and the raptor.

Try training a fresh caught wild merlin or accipter without the use of the hood. You will soon have a freaked out bird with massive leg scale and feather damage! I could'nt imagine training my current passage prairie without oneconfusedd

[dirtwinger]

I am a big fan of my bird being well manned to anything that might distract from hunting in the field and anything that might stress it at home or on the way to the field. Having said that I use the hood a great deal too and it is not to be underestimated as an aid to desensitizing a bird to stressful stimulus.
Where the hood is very effective in this process is that you can tightly control the amount of stimulus the hawk is exposed to down to the second. Rather than just bulling through until the bird becomes oblivious after having endured much stress, it can be phased in gently anytime it becomes too much on goes the hood and the bird gets break. used correctly the hood is actually a kindness to a wild hawk. the goal in training and maintaining a raptor into your hunting partner is to do so in a subtle and minimally stressful manner. A well fitted hood used well is very much your friend in this and a hawk should accept the hood without issue if done right.
There is a reason the hood is still used in falconry after a couple of thousand years and that is because it works, as they say "if it aint broke then dont fix it".

[oldguy]

I'll step in this one. For me the first point of hooding is tradition. It is part of the artform.
If I were to take up another, say sculpting, I would learn to use every tool used.
The second point is stimulus reduction. Today I was able to fly Idaho's thriftiest redtail. He was finally at weight and attitude. I know a park nearby that is pretty much empty. Guess what's coming. I got set up and here comes a half dozen 7 or 8 yr old kids. SIGH. I asked them to please stay back and watch, which they did. "Wow, cool"! etc. I flew my bird the number of times I planned and motioned the now much larger group of kids closer.
As an ex-cop I'm a bit paranoid about kids and strangers, so we talked about what they had been told... But I digress. The little crowd grew larger as questions were answered. I quietly hooded my bird as I felt him tensing on my fist more and more. More questions of course, which I was able to answer with a calm bird on my glove.

The quiet little park turned into show and tell for what now looked like the entire first and second grades and parents. No bating, no stressed bird.
We were able to end the session on a positive note. A few decent flights to glove with instant response. He had a good bloody taste in his mouth and a bit of a crop. In my bird's mind, he got rewarded for doing as asked and there was nothing scary to mess it up.

That is why I hood my bird. Hope I made my point.

Good luck.

[Mandragen]

I don't want anyone to think that I'm trying to say the hood is dumb, useless, or should be taken out of the equation all together. I enjoy learning and using new tools for training purposes. The best trainer is one with an open mind, willingness to learn, and one that can take critisizm. I've met many different types of trainers and everyone has their own unique style. When I see new types of training or new tools used by others it is important for me to understand them and their application thuroughly, anything less would be ignorant on my part, IMO.

The reasoning behind this thread was to get some more ideas, from a wider ranged audience, of the different situations hoods are needed. There have been many great examples already. This is my first bird, so things are new to me, and it's already been pointed out that red tails differ in behavior than other species. I think I've only seen one falcon flown in the two years that I've been around falconry. I've been out with many different people and birds, but most fly red tails in these parts.

[Mandragen]

I'll step in this one. For me the first point of hooding is tradition. It is part of the artform.
If I were to take up another, say sculpting, I would learn to use every tool used.
The second point is stimulus reduction. Today I was able to fly Idaho's thriftiest redtail. He was finally at weight and attitude. I know a park nearby that is pretty much empty. Guess what's coming. I got set up and here comes a half dozen 7 or 8 yr old kids. SIGH. I asked them to please stay back and watch, which they did. "Wow, cool"! etc. I flew my bird the number of times I planned and motioned the now much larger group of kids closer.
As an ex-cop I'm a bit paranoid about kids and strangers, so we talked about what they had been told... But I digress. The little crowd grew larger as questions were answered. I quietly hooded my bird as I felt him tensing on my fist more and more. More questions of course, which I was able to answer with a calm bird on my glove.

The quiet little park turned into show and tell for what now looked like the entire first and second grades and parents. No bating, no stressed bird.
We were able to end the session on a positive note. A few decent flights to glove with instant response. He had a good bloody taste in his mouth and a bit of a crop. In my bird's mind, he got rewarded for doing as asked and there was nothing scary to mess it up.

That is why I hood my bird. Hope I made my point.

Good luck.

lol, this is a situation that I am very familiar with. There was a bird I used to work with and we started training it to take pictures with guests at the facility. He was a great bird but a situation can become overwhelming quickly, not just for the bird. In this situation, without a hood, there are some tricks to helping the birds through, and in some cases it requires a premature exit. This is a spot where I think hoods could be good for tropical birds as well.

[Yeomanfalconer]

Good discussion. Relevant for me to think about due to a current challenge.

My imprint tiercel, anatum peregrine, who is just hardening up the last primaries from his first molt, has decided he doesn't want to be hooded. He is the "Artful Dodger" and seems quite proud of himself with his evasion efforts. I am waiting for those last vulnerable feathers to hard pen before I really press things. He "will" take the hood. He can not "win". With some birds you just have to persist (with an eye for harmful stress of course) It seems to be quite a game with some imprints. I won't even bring up eyas prairies that become hood shy. Whoops, I just did) I have had passage merlins become this way as well. Now that is a small, nimble target.

Last year, as a brown bird, he never was wild about being hooded but I could get it on him no problem. He would fuss and stomp for awhile, eventually settling down. He is such a tame little guy, I admit to getting soft and letting him travel in the car on longer rides bare-headed which he really seemed to enjoy.

Quite a contrast to the gyrkin I had at the same time who was probably one of the easiest falcons I have ever had to hood, which is saying something, with some passage tundra peregrines as comparisons. He would have ruined himself riding bare-headed but was a statue hooded for as long as needed, even overnight at meets, etc.

And yes, the hood is a good fit. I did not make this one. Anatum tiercels seem to be a little trickier to fit than peales tiercels for instance. Their heads are squarer, blockier. Most of my patterns weren't quite right, or maybe it is the molds. I do admire the work and innovation being done with hoods these days. Oldguy is right. The art of them is worth pursuing, even if their use is not so easy.

[passagejack]

Great post Dan!

Oliver its great you are asking questions and doing your homework. clapp

[Martin Hollinshead]

Hi Oliver,
Has flying ‘out of the hood’ been mentioned? If it has and I’ve missed it – apologies.
There are several types of hawking where the bird is kept hooded until a good slip opportunity arises – which might take some time and walking. In my own case this involves flying a Harris at hares out of the hood: some hares will be too far; some not right due to the ground/terrain/wind; some may be in dangerous situations – and some simply the wrong animal for perhaps the novice hawk. The hood allows me to select slips carefully, remembering that a normally free-flown bird might not appreciate a lengthy search without being hooded.
Martin

[Mandragen]

Hi Oliver,
Has flying ‘out of the hood’ been mentioned? If it has and I’ve missed it – apologies.
There are several types of hawking where the bird is kept hooded until a good slip opportunity arises – which might take some time and walking. In my own case this involves flying a Harris at hares out of the hood: some hares will be too far; some not right due to the ground/terrain/wind; some may be in dangerous situations – and some simply the wrong animal for perhaps the novice hawk. The hood allows me to select slips carefully, remembering that a normally free-flown bird might not appreciate a lengthy search without being hooded.
Martin

I can see where this is helpful, but does it not take time to get the hood off once game as been spotted? Maybe it's just seconds that you are losing but what if you didn't have to keep the bird hooded. I am training my bird now that it shouldn't leave the glove unless I motion for it to do so. It's nothing big, just the slightest movement of the glove hand. Sort of like a dog is taught to point, wait, and not flush until given the S(d), or discriminative stimulus. I know that it sounds complicated or even impossible, but I think it can be done. Instead of the sight of game triggering the chase, while on the fist, it's the movement of the fist that gives the ok. My PRT is just 5 weeks or so off the trap, but she is catching on quick. Sometime we walk with her being free flown and sometimes we practice with her on the fist, but when and where is always up to me, not her.

Is there anyone that does this already with success?

[Martin Hollinshead]

I can see where this is helpful, but does it not take time to get the hood off once game as been spotted? Maybe it's just seconds that you are losing but what if you didn't have to keep the bird hooded. I am training my bird now that it shouldn't leave the glove unless I motion for it to do so. It's nothing big, just the slightest movement of the glove hand. Sort of like a dog is taught to point, wait, and not flush until given the S(d), or discriminative stimulus. I know that it sounds complicated or even impossible, but I think it can be done. Instead of the sight of game triggering the chase, while on the fist, it's the movement of the fist that gives the ok. My PRT is just 5 weeks or so off the trap, but she is catching on quick. Sometime we walk with her being free flown and sometimes we practice with her on the fist, but when and where is always up to me, not her.

Is there anyone that does this already with success?
Oliver,
The braces on the hood are loosened/opened enough to permit the hood’s immediate removal. Hawks trained to fly this way explode from the glove, the hood barely clear of their head. The fast removal tells the bird, ‘out there is a hare you can get up to’ and this promise has the already concentrated and fully focussed bird give absolutely everything.
Of course, this puts all the weight on the falconer: he has to get it right, has to assess hares/conditions correctly every time in what might be a split second. If he keeps getting it wrong, commitment goes out the window (which sort of takes us back to the thread on developing a motivated hawk, or ruining one). I will add that the preparation for this is done with lure flights out of the hood.
Another benefit of course, is that when group hawking, the bird doesn’t have to watch other hawks chase hares while she waits for her turn – another killer of motivation.
On your training to keep the bird sitting on the glove and ignoring quarry with a slight special movement, I cannot comment – other than to say I’d love to see it in operation.
Martin

[AK Rev]

I am training my bird now that it shouldn't leave the glove unless I motion for it to do so.

Your bird becomes aware of quarry many times before you do. That's the split second that makes the difference many times. If my bird only left when I told it to I would be missing about 1/2 of the slips and needlessly delaying most of the others. Just my take on it.

I like what Terence said about hooding...it's actually a kindness to the bird. Well put.

[Mandragen]

Oliver,
The braces on the hood are loosened/opened enough to permit the hood’s immediate removal. Hawks trained to fly this way explode from the glove, the hood barely clear of their head. The fast removal tells the bird, ‘out there is a hare you can get up to’ and this promise has the already concentrated and fully focussed bird give absolutely everything.
Of course, this puts all the weight on the falconer: he has to get it right, has to assess hares/conditions correctly every time in what might be a split second. If he keeps getting it wrong, commitment goes out the window (which sort of takes us back to the thread on developing a motivated hawk, or ruining one). I will add that the preparation for this is done with lure flights out of the hood.
Another benefit of course, is that when group hawking, the bird doesn’t have to watch other hawks chase hares while she waits for her turn – another killer of motivation.
On your training to keep the bird sitting on the glove and ignoring quarry with a slight special movement, I cannot comment – other than to say I’d love to see it in operation.
Martin

I think I get the picture, and I would love to see this done! lol, kinda like pulling a trigger on a gun? I'm not very quick and nimble with my fat fingers and would for sure mess something like that up.

Speaking of group hunting, if you have ever seen a marine mammal show there are quite a few dolphins being held at control with one person. I think it might be more difficult in this situation, again I have no experience with it in birds of prey, but we would ask one dolphin to go do something, or two, or three. We could do the same with seals, sea lions, and I've seen it done with tropical birds. In a lot of cases you could use that selection process to reward other behavior. I know it's completely different situations, but so far I have never met concepts that couldn't be worked in with other animals. I'm also aware that mutliple birds in the field can be a complete hand full, and putting hoods on it can make the job very easy. Again, what do I know, I'm new to this whole thing and could quite possibly be overly ambitious.

A bit off topic, but if you have not seen it yet they even work with their sharks at the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago. Different individuals are trained to come to different shapes and colors for feeding time. Ken Ramirez does big things there, not only have attended a lecture of his, but have worked with him closely on one occasion and seen him work quite a few times personally. He has a book titled Animal Training, it's got some good stuff in there dealing with OC for a variety of situation. In my opinion, and experience, birds are smarter than fish. I think there is a lot more these birds are capable of than we give them credit for.

[Mandragen]

Your bird becomes aware of quarry many times before you do. That's the split second that makes the difference many times. If my bird only left when I told it to I would be missing about 1/2 of the slips and needlessly delaying most of the others. Just my take on it.

I like what Terence said about hooding...it's actually a kindness to the bird. Well put.

Excellent point and I thought about this as well. If I find that it might work better that way, we will go that route as well. But in the example above, they can't see the game with a hood on either, so it's totally on the human there as well.

[AK Rev]

Right but in that scenario, the bird would not be hooded on the fist for those reasons. Look around here for a recent topic on "can your sharpie do this?" (something like that). You'll see just how fast the reaction times can be for a raptor that isn't hindered if you view the video of the bird launcher.

Speaking of which, a whole other subject is whether to hold on to the jesses or even whether to remove them in the field. Actually, that subject tracks about the same as this one in regards to reactionary times, etc. but jesses are useful at times...even essential.

Think of the hood and the jesses as tools...not always used but always close at hand.

[AK Rev]

Oliver, separate question...do you have any video of you training animals at work? I would be interested to see that in a separate topic. Part of my interest in raptors goes way back to seeing trainers at Sea World & Marineland as a kid. Fascinating stuff.

[Mandragen]

Right but in that scenario, the bird would not be hooded on the fist for those reasons. Look around here for a recent topic on "can your sharpie do this?" (something like that). You'll see just how fast the reaction times can be for a raptor that isn't hindered if you view the video of the bird launcher.

Speaking of which, a whole other subject is whether to hold on to the jesses or even whether to remove them in the field. Actually, that subject tracks about the same as this one in regards to reactionary times, etc. but jesses are useful at times...even essential.

Think of the hood and the jesses as tools...not always used but always close at hand.


I'll try to find it, if someone finds it before I do post a link.

excellents points clapp

[Mandragen]

Oliver, separate question...do you have any video of you training animals at work? I would be interested to see that in a separate topic. Part of my interest in raptors goes way back to seeing trainers at Sea World & Marineland as a kid. Fascinating stuff.


Ummm, I'm sure I can find some pictures for sure, video might be hard to find. I'll see what I can dig up!

[jnelly32]

This has basically been covered already, but I wanted to give a fellow apprentice my perspective to the question.

I had my first bird last season, a PMRT that despised the hood (I think mainly because of my inexperience in jamming it on his head when he was trapped - but that's maybe a discussion for another thread). Because of his aversion to the hood and my inexperience with hooding a bird, I gave up hooding him very early on and relied on the giant hood to take him anywhere.

I ignored the advice of more experienced falconers who kept telling me that I needed to get the bird used to the hood. But from my limited experience, the GH was more than adequate in the field, and I managed equipment changes fairly well with the bird on my fist.

However, when my bird broke his coracoid and wishbone, it became glaringly obvious that I was foolish to not train my bird to the hood. The x-rays at the vet's were traumatic without the hood, and the physical therapy made the bird absolutely despise me. If he had been hooded, the x-rays would not have been such an issue, and certainly he would not have associated me with the pain/stress of physical therapy that was necessary to help him heal correctly. The lost trust and the stress it caused could have been minimized if he would take the hood. This bird eventually caught Asper and died, which I believe was partly due to the stress the injury caused. Could this have been prevented if the bird hooded? Who knows - but it might have.

My PFRT for this year spent a lot of time in that new, properly fitted, quality hood, from the very first day. She is hooded daily and no longer has any issue with it. I'll make sure that every bird I have from here on out is trained to the hood.

[Mandragen]

I think this is an excellent example of when a hood would be a great tool in the arsenal of many.

I think I've just seen too many bring the hood out at the first sign of stress, or the anticipation of stress, or maybe just because they don't wanna deal with it. I think it's important with any animal to realize that a little bit of stress isn't necessarily a bad thing. Done properly you can get through it, without pushing the bird too far (what is too far is for the individual to determine as we all know our animals better than anyone else). This not only helps the bird learn how to deal with that particular situation, but also helps them learn that it is possible to get over things that might stress them in the future, learn to learn. You are certainly not teaching them anything by shutting it off, the only thing they might be learning is that if they feel uncomfortable they can pitch a fit and you will take care of it. Unfortunately you see the aforementioned in a lot of people's kids.

[Squirrelhawkin]

or maybe just because they don't wanna deal with it.

Bingo! You got it. If your bird is well made to and accepts the hood fine,why not use it? confusedd
My last redtail took the hood great,just pop it on. I have a few spots where I walk down the side of the road to get to a slip. Instead of walking down with the bird bating and nervous about the cars sailing by,I just popped on the hood.Cut into the woods and pop the hood off to start hunting.Sure I could have spent time working with the bird to get him used to the traffic,but why bother,when I can use the hood.I'd much rather spend the time hunting than working on a problem(that isn't a problem at all if I use the hood :D)

[Mandragen]

Bingo! You got it. If your bird is well made to and accepts the hood fine,why not use it? confusedd
My last redtail took the hood great,just pop it on. I have a few spots where I walk down the side of the road to get to a slip. Instead of walking down with the bird bating and nervous about the cars sailing by,I just popped on the hood.Cut into the woods and pop the hood off to start hunting.Sure I could have spent time working with the bird to get him used to the traffic,but why bother,when I can use the hood.I'd much rather spend the time hunting than working on a problem(that isn't a problem at all if I use the hood :D)

Nick, I think the utmost importance should be placed on your and the bird's safety. If there are areas where you need to walk right next to a highly traveled road, it sounds like a great idea the hood should be used. I'm not trying to advocate putting our animals in dangerous situations, or potential future dangerous situations. If there is even a remote possibility that the bird be released in the future, you don't want it used to being close to cars, that's a death sentence. However, I don't think that using the hood just because it's easy is the best thing for progress, both for the trainer or the bird. No one can say that they are totally against stressing the bird slightly, if that were the case we wouldn't catch them.

[Martin Hollinshead]

I think I get the picture, and I would love to see this done!
Oliver,
I just remembered this account. It’s not at all technical, is in fact quite light, but if you have a few minutes to kill it might paint a picture of this type of flight (if you get bored with the story, just scroll through to the flight!)
http://business.virgin.net/fernhill.press/extract8.htm (http://business.virgin.net/fernhill.press/extract8.htm)
Martin

[Ricko]

Hooding is essential to get the most out of falconry. If hunting is not the purpose of one that has a raptor....the hood will not make a lot of sense. Docility and managability are greatly enhanced with a hood.

Interestingly, falconry in Europe was "revolutionized" by the hood. It was intorduced to King Frederick II by Arabian falconers. Which means that european falconers attempted to fly birds w/o hoods for a long time.

That must have been interesting.

[Keith Denman]

killer story and a beautiful hare for Christmas dinner.

[rkumetz]

Hooding is essential to get the most out of falconry. .

I disagree with this single statement. Granted a hood can be an asset but I venture to say a fair number of falconers (particularly those flying RT's and Harris who use giant hoods) do not use the hood and they have a lot of fun.

In my case using a hood would be nice but I have only 1 good eye and no depth perception. Ever try to hood a bird when you can't quite judge where its head is? (and I don't mean in a psychological sense) Not pretty... I tried for years but couldn't really get the hang of it even with birds that had been made to the hood by others.
Eventually I gave it up in frustration.

All in all I would say that if someone is not good at it they are better off using a giant hood than ending up with a bird with some issues because they are constantly trying (poorly) to hood the bird. Not everyone can be good at everything.....

[footbound]

Maybe someday we one-eyed falconers should get together and trade goffy stories. I've met quite a few over the years, most of them long wingers with hooded falcons on their fists. Steve Chindgrine, Jack Oar, Jeff Broadbent to name a few.
Michael Gregston
Montana

[rkumetz]

Maybe someday we one-eyed falconers should get together and trade goofy stories. I've met quite a few over the years, most of them long wingers with hooded falcons on their fists. Steve Chindgrine, Jack Oar, Jeff Broadbent to name a few.
Michael Gregston
Montana

Or even better some of you could show me how you manage to hood a bird sans depth perception without pissing it off.

So how does one get around the lack of depth perception? All the 2 eyed falconers I have asked about this simply shrugged their shoulders. They can't imagine what it is like to not have depth perception. Of course they also like to laugh at tales of being clocked by a baseball as a kid, etc......

[Ross]

Olliver,
I would like to point out that apprenticeship is not just about you training a bird, but also hopefully a mentor training you. A hood is at very least a useful piece of equipment- arguably essential for certain types of falconry. Would it not make sense to learn to use one while beginning your falconry training? Saying one wants to be a falconer without learning how to hood is akin to saying you want to train dogs but don't want to use a leash. Learn to hood. You will find it very useful if you fly certain types of birds in the future. At least if you learn how and decide to dispense with it, it is still a "tool" that you can use if you need it. It seems to me you are willing to great efforts to get around training a bird to hood. hooding is not that difficult. Most passage redtails take to it easily. If you end up flying birds where hooding is not important you may decide to forego it in the future, but at least you will have developed the skill early on and have the ability to use it. If there is some problem like depth perception at least give it a try on one bird. Once you are able to hood smoothly I doubt you will see it as a wasted effort to have learned the skill.

[footbound]

As a matter of fact Ron I am a bit clumsy at hooding falcons and never could sneak up on the 2 shifty gos hawks I have flown. I don't want to get to elimental here and risk offending you but hood training is accomplished during manning when the hawk spends a lot of time frozen with fear, it's been covered here and elsewhere extensivly. As far as depth perception I can tell you how I trained myself. I lost sight in my left eye just after I turned 21 and spent the better part of a year relearning how to flick a cigerret ash into a long neck beer bottle while trying to talk the pants off young maidens. I got better at all of it with practice.:D Come in low and slow and before they know it they are had.

[Martin Hollinshead]

It’s interesting that until about ten years ago a hooded Harris here in the UK would have been quite a talking point. Very few used the hood with the parabuteo. Today, hood makers find the Harris giving them a nice steady trade.
Martin

[rkumetz]

As a matter of fact Ron I am a bit clumsy at hooding falcons and never could sneak up on the 2 shifty gos hawks I have flown. I don't want to get to elimental here and risk offending you but hood training is accomplished during manning when the hawk spends a lot of time frozen with fear, it's been covered here and elsewhere extensivly. As far as depth perception I can tell you how I trained myself. I lost sight in my left eye just after I turned 21 and spent the better part of a year relearning how to flick a cigerret ash into a long neck beer bottle while trying to talk the pants off young maidens. I got better at all of it with practice.:D Come in low and slow and before they know it they are had.

I am pretty hard to offend. To be honest I had sort of a remote apprenticeship and had to learn a lot of things on my own that would have been much easier to master with someone to demonstrate. Hooding is simply one of those things that I could never get the hang of. I would definitely never recommend that for anyone starting out in the sport.

Now with regard to the coming in low and slow - is that your hooding technique or your tactic when chasing maidens? confusedd

[footbound]

This bit of medieval drivel from the 14th century has served me well.
"Women and falcons are easily tamed: If you lure them the righrt way they come to meet their man."
michael Gregston

[Mandragen]

Olliver,
I would like to point out that apprenticeship is not just about you training a bird, but also hopefully a mentor training you. A hood is at very least a useful piece of equipment- arguably essential for certain types of falconry. Would it not make sense to learn to use one while beginning your falconry training? Saying one wants to be a falconer without learning how to hood is akin to saying you want to train dogs but don't want to use a leash. Learn to hood. You will find it very useful if you fly certain types of birds in the future. At least if you learn how and decide to dispense with it, it is still a "tool" that you can use if you need it. It seems to me you are willing to great efforts to get around training a bird to hood. hooding is not that difficult. Most passage redtails take to it easily. If you end up flying birds where hooding is not important you may decide to forego it in the future, but at least you will have developed the skill early on and have the ability to use it. If there is some problem like depth perception at least give it a try on one bird. Once you are able to hood smoothly I doubt you will see it as a wasted effort to have learned the skill.

Ross, I can see where that would be one's first impression of this thread. This thread was never started with intention of me not learning how to do something. In fact, the intentions were quite the opposite. I started this discussion/debate to try and get a feel for all the different situations where a hood was needed. I felt as though I had a grasp on what hoods did, when they were useful, and how they could make life easier. I just wasn't convinced from personal experience that I had seen a moment where it couldn't have been done differently, more like I've trained in the past, that is why I wanted more examples from others with different experiences.

All too often you see people doing things just because that's the way they are done, but that's never been my angle. I have to push the subject and the reasoning behind it to make sure I fully understand it. When someone asks me, "is that necessary", I want to be able to tell them with full certainty "yes" and be able to explain why without hesitation. Maybe it comes from working with marine mammals and all the scrutiny that comes with. It wasn't uncommon to be talking with someone and have them be a member of certain organizations undercover waiting for you to slip up in your words so they could use that against you, very often we were being video taped or recorded without knowing it, just search it on youtube, lol.

[NCFalconer]

Great post Dan!

Oliver its great you are asking questions and doing your homework. clapp

Oliver, I totally agree with Jeremy, keep asking questions. This is the place for it.

I may have missed it somewhere else, but who's your sponsor? It looks like you live nearby. Are you connected with Damon, Dan, Larry, Fred, or any other falconers up North of you??? Are you planning to be in Goldsboro?

[Mandragen]

Oliver, I totally agree with Jeremy, keep asking questions. This is the place for it.

I may have missed it somewhere else, but who's your sponsor? It looks like you live nearby. Are you connected with Damon, Dan, Larry, Fred, or any other falconers up North of you??? Are you planning to be in Goldsboro?

Yeah I'm over near Mooresville, where abouts are you? I would love to go out hunting with more falconers in the area. Chip is actually my sponsor and I have met a few of those listed above I believe. Chip is over in Lillington but we see each other quite often. I won't make the Goldsboro meet because it happens to be an old friends birthday, who is coming to stay with me for the weekend.

[NCFalconer]

Oliver: sent you a pm.

[FredFogg]

Yeah I'm over near Mooresville, where abouts are you? I would love to go out hunting with more falconers in the area. Chip is actually my sponsor and I have met a few of those listed above I believe. Chip is over in Lillington but we see each other quite often. I won't make the Goldsboro meet because it happens to be an old friends birthday, who is coming to stay with me for the weekend.

Oliver, Dan and I are in Winston-Salem, you are welcome to come up and go out with us anytime. Dan is flying a merlin and I have a red-tail and hopefully, something else in the works. LOL Damon has moved to VA, he used to live in Statesville. And I am sure the one you met was Larry, he lives between Statesville and Winston-Salem.

As far as hooding, you have asked a lot of questions and you have heard a lot of answers. My answer to you is just remember what you have asked as you go through your first year as an apprentice and say to yourself, hmmm, would this be a good time to train this bird to handle this situation or would this be a good time to hood this bird? I think you will find out the times that hooding comes in handy and the times that you need to work with the bird on a given situation. Time and experience are the best teachers.

Oh yeah, and by all means, watch out for that Daren guy, he is trouble! LOL toungeout :D

[cdickson16@cogeco.ca]

1. Ease in transportation both in vehicle and when walking to hunting locale and returning to vehicle.

2. After transferring off a kill which allows the hawk to "re-boot" and allows the falconer to put game away.

3. A stressful situation arises suddenly and you hood the hawk thereby eliminating or at least severely reducing said stress.

4. When changing the anklets, bells etc, it is far easier to do with a perched and hooded hawk thereby eliminating casting the hawk.

5. Coping the beak is made easier with a hooded hawk.

6. Walking through doors.

7. Taking the hawk to the Vet.

These are only some of the reasons why I love to hood my hawk. I cannot think of any reason why not to hood my hawk. This is my preference.

Steve.

[Steve Roberts]

Oliver,

You seem to be going to extreme lengths to avoid the use of one of the most useful tools in falconry.

Since you clearly have serious animal training expertise, then why not clicker-train your hawk to the hood and be done with it.

That's even fun/rewarding (for both of you) and a lot more fun I'd venture than training any hawk to not launch from the first when it sees favoured quarry.

Regards,
Steve

[jal4470]

I have thought about this allot. I did not hood my early birds, as I never learned how. I did ok, but then I needed to take a bird to the vet for a severed extensor tendon and do a bit of work on her subsequent to bringing her home. I vowed after that to ALWAYS hood train my birds and now I love it. You are correct, there are very few situations where a hood is an inescapable necessity but for me it has come down to the simple fact that I have hawks to hunt with them and the only reason I train them is to hunt them. If I didn't hunt I wouldn't train. Given that, the hood one remarkably good, safe and effective management tool in a multitude of situations. True you could probably train the bird to deal with most of those situations but honestly I don't want to, I want to hunt, put the bird away and hunt the next day. I don't even like keeping them over the summer. Many people find just as much enjoyment in training as they do in hunting, and for them, great, have at it. their birds are undoubtedly better trained than mine. I still suggest you make your bird to the hood, as it will make both your and their life easier. and the bottom line with passage birds is stress kills. However you choose to do it if you want to keep a passage bird for any length of time, you should really focus on keeping stress down, your bird will thank you, and live longer.

[Eric Hausman]

Oliver I've hood trained all 6 of my RT's and have found the sooner you start the better. Be persistent and consistant. I lost 2 leashes while hunting in brutal briars the other day and was very thankful to have a hood trained bird. You have missed your window with this bird.

Eric Hausman

[JRedig]

You have missed your window with this bird.

Eric Hausman

That is very far from the truth. Does oliver even have a bird anyway?

[oldguy]

That is very far from the truth. Does oliver even have a bird anyway?

I'm going to step it it again, I just know it...

With my years and years of inexperience to back me up, I can say that even a very hoodshy bird can be made to the hood.
I know this because I did it. I made my male redtail hoodshy, then used the time tested technique of WATER MANNING. I think I posted this on another thread, so I won't go into details here. Short story, IT WORKS !

I would refer anyone to American Falconry magazine. I don't recall which issue. It was last winter. Steve Jones wrote it and I got my 15 min. of fame by having a letter to editor published in next issue about how I used this method. Did I mention IT WORKS

I won't say if it works with all raptor species. Inexperience rears its ugly head again.

On another note. I've watched this thread and it seems (sometimes) to imply that training one of this planet's species is the same as another. I couldn't disagree more. Punish your goshawk like you would your dog and see what you get. I believe there is a reason why E-collars don't come in sizes to fit Coopers hawks. Conditioned response can be thought as nearly universal but there are differences some subtle, some not so subtle.

Frankly, I like hoods. Hoods are good.

[scrimfish]

This is one of the threads that I have been watching as I am working on hood training my female kestrel. I have a question about the value of having a hood at the time of capture. It seems to me that it would have been a lot easier to break out the hood while she was socked. I also feel that this would lessen stress down the road. I am just an apprentice, and this is the first kestrel I have dealt with, but am I right in my thinking?

[owo9ja]

old thread, but does it make, (harm the bird or no difference) if the bird is hooded in the mews all day (8 hours) while one is away at work

[footbound]

Fresh caught falcons spend most of their lives in the hood at least for the first 2 weeks. I would feel bad if I left my made falcons hooded in the mews. Why not leave her un hooded? Nervous hawk?

[owo9ja]

he picks at his gear. and actually just a nervous falconer. i tether him and worry he will end up entangled somehow in my absence. with the hood he stays out of trouble. but its been 3 weeks or so since i've had him and he fights me whenever i try to hood him that i worry he will associate me with the bad experience

[Tony James]

he picks at his gear. and actually just a nervous falconer. i tether him and worry he will end up entangled somehow in my absence. with the hood he stays out of trouble. but its been 3 weeks or so since i've had him and he fights me whenever i try to hood him that i worry he will associate me with the bad experience

Uwem,

without wishing to sound negative, I think you might need someone on hand to give you a little help and guidance.
What you're doing is not good, and more problems await if you continue as you are.

Regards,

Tony.

[owo9ja]

actually that was the advice i was given by a more experienced falconer who suggests I hood and tether the bird in the training stage. he does the same with his. thing is the bird has taken a greater dislike to it as he has warmed to me. i wanted to know what the experience of others was where a bird is responding to training but hates being hooded n the mews.

[Tony James]

actually that was the advice i was given by a more experienced falconer who suggests I hood and tether the bird in the training stage. he does the same with his. thing is the bird has taken a greater dislike to it as he has warmed to me. i wanted to know what the experience of others was where a bird is responding to training but hates being hooded n the mews.

It sounds as though your hawk is not made to the hood and is well on the way to being hoodshy, and whilst it's quite legitimate, even advisable to keep a hawk hooded in the early stages, the hood is not a device to be used long term to avoid restlessness in the mews or whilst weathering.
There are exceptions to every rule, but it sounds to me as though you need some help in making your hawk to the hood first and foremost, as with every passing day things are likely to become more difficult.
I do apologise if I'm misunderstanding the situation, and wish you the best of luck in your efforts.

Tony.

[footbound]

I would second what Tony said. Find Raul Ramerize's video on high level hooding and get started right now. Bring your comfort level up with regards to tethering by using the Lyman method if you haven't already. Braided jesses, braided extender, braided leash.

[murraym]

Michael, do you know if Raul posted the video here?

[owo9ja]

It sounds as though your hawk is not made to the hood and is well on the way to being hoodshy, and whilst it's quite legitimate, even advisable to keep a hawk hooded in the early stages, the hood is not a device to be used long term to avoid restlessness in the mews or whilst weathering.
There are exceptions to every rule, but it sounds to me as though you need some help in making your hawk to the hood first and foremost, as with every passing day things are likely to become more difficult.
I do apologise if I'm misunderstanding the situation, and wish you the best of luck in your efforts.

Tony.

not at all, you and others have been of great help

[owo9ja]

I would second what Tony said. Find Raul Ramerize's video on high level hooding and get started right now. Bring your comfort level up with regards to tethering by using the Lyman method if you haven't already. Braided jesses, braided extender, braided leash.

where can i find the video

[footbound]

I found it on an abatement site. I think it is American Abatement or google the key words. Another great way to learn proper falcon handling is to buy House of Grouse. Watch every move Steve makes, a true master in every respect.

[Falconer54]

All birds are different. I pretty much only hood my birds before I am going to fly them. Had some Coops that gave me problems, but when my birds won't let me hood them at home, they stay at home and don't fly or eat that day. I do not hood train birds, and try to only use the hood when I am going to fly them. Last year my bird would not let me pick her up with food earlier in the season, so she stayed home and did not fly those days. Within a month I could pick her up without food. I realize this isn't the same as hooding, but the concept is, if you want to fly and eat, YOU WILL LET ME PICK YOU UP AND HOOD YOU. I have a new Passage Prairie, and I will not hood her again until she is eating on the fist, however long that might be. I would not want to have sit around hooded for no reason if I was a bird. I have never hooded any birds during the moult. Main point is I only try to hood my birds when it is a beneficial or will be beneficial to them. That gives them the choice. Hooding in the field after flying is a different story. Had some friends with Gp's that would fight the hood in the field after flying. I watched them play games dodging, bating, then trying to slam the hood on the bird. Part of this conditioning is like a game, who will win, and the birds were a bit heavy, and honestly, acting like spoiled brats. All of these birds are now hooding properly with no more games, as they were given a choice. We have found a 100% effective way that may seem harsh to some, but works every time. Get into that later if needed. First and foremost, needs to be a decent fitting hood. Second, hood SHOULD only go on when it is going to be beneficial to the bird, of course there are circumstances or exceptions at times. Third, don't let them fool us, and get away with being a spoiled brat, as birds are quite intelligent. My new bird this year gave a me a few episodes in the beginning, but then nothing for over a month. Then coincidently, out in the field when she was at her heaviest weight one day, she bated from the hood. I know they say practice makes perfect, but don't know of any birds that just want a hood put on and off their head a hundred times just because. I know what works for my friends and I, is to give the bird a choice. Stand there and take the hood like a good little bird, or don't fly and eat. The birds figure it out pretty quickly. Maybe this isn't something that others like, or are in the position to do, but it seems to be effective.

[Flight]

Or even better some of you could show me how you manage to hood a bird sans depth perception without pissing it off.

LOL!!!! I think it's funny you should bring this up. Being a one eyed falconer myself I've actually never had trouble hooding. Then again the birds I've had practically put the hood on themselves, so maybe that's the secret...let them make up for any discrepancy in hood alignment. Lol!

As for this thread, hoods are great. Makes life easy, conditions the bird to hunt, look cool, and are "classic". I will always hood, no matter what species I fly. Better to have and not need, than to need and not have. Plus you know that Murphy is always lurking around waiting to enforce his screwed up law.

[thunderheartiii]

where can i find the video


I found it here: http://www.americanbirdabatementservice.com/

It is under "high level tidbiting 1 and 2"

[rkumetz]

LOL!!!! I think it's funny you should bring this up. Being a one eyed falconer myself I've actually never had trouble hooding. Then again the birds I've had practically put the hood on themselves, so maybe that's the secret...let them make up for any discrepancy in hood alignment. Lol!

As for this thread, hoods are great. Makes life easy, conditions the bird to hunt, look cool, and are "classic". I will always hood, no matter what species I fly. Better to have and not need, than to need and not have. Plus you know that Murphy is always lurking around waiting to enforce his screwed up law.

I didn't say that I don't HAVE a hood for my bird, I simply don't use them unless the bird needs to be cast or something like that. I have also found
that having a good LEFT eye and trying to do things with your RIGHT hand is a challenge. I couldn't shoot a bow or a gun worth $&*# until I realized that I had to do those things left "handed". That was long before an eye dominance test became the norm when teaching shooting sports.

I would honestly love to be good at hooding but simply not willing to piss off a bird by using it as a guinea pig for my own attempts at hand-eye coordination.

[Flight]

I didn't say that I don't HAVE a hood for my bird, I simply don't use them unless the bird needs to be cast or something like that. I have also found
that having a good LEFT eye and trying to do things with your RIGHT hand is a challenge. I couldn't shoot a bow or a gun worth $&*# until I realized that I had to do those things left "handed". That was long before an eye dominance test became the norm when teaching shooting sports.

I would honestly love to be good at hooding but simply not willing to piss off a bird by using it as a guinea pig for my own attempts at hand-eye coordination.

I hear ya' Ron, that second statement was just my general input towards this thread, not aimed at you at all. Yea I've had to relearn shooting, and archery left handed as well. Although I don't think eye dominance plays as much of a role in my falconry, maybe that's why it's my primary method of hunting. lol

[footbound]

I still want to start a sub group of one-eyed falconers on here.

[falcon56]

Just curious, does having one eye means ones falcon is twice as high or half as high as you think it is?:D

[footbound]

You already know I can't count. To answer your question Ray...yes.

[Toadstool]

Excellent thread. I didn't ever make my PMRT to the hood, I really wish I had when it wold have been fairly easy to do so (manning). Many of those long windy walks back to the truck with a bate happy bird, plus plenty of missed opportunities due to his impatience with being stuck hunting off the fist instead of free flying as preferred.

[melissasparrots]

I watched the video on high level tidbitting with the aplomado falcon. That kind of training makes sense to me because I've used it a lot with my parrots. I had one bird trained so well to accept her nails getting filed that even when medical issues caused some pretty major fear based behavior problems, I could still do her nails without issue. So, my question about using that technique with a passage red tail is this: as seen on the video, would a person need to worry about associating the free hand with food? I don't like it when I need to text my hapkido instructor and say I need to miss class this week because I can't stop bleeding. Having a passage redtail bound to my free hand does not sound like a lot of fun. However, I do like that kind of training in that once you get it, it tends to pretty solid in my experience with other birds. Is there a way to do high level tid bitting without free hand association? I'm guess it would a convenient way to train the bird to accept its breast being touched to assess condition. My current bird still likes to bite, which makes that kind of handling a hassle. Would like to be able to to specifically mark and train certain behaviors without accidentally training in other behaviors like footiness toward the free hand.

Melissa

[Tasha55403]

I use a bamboo skewer, works great:)

[melissasparrots]

I use a bamboo skewer, works great:)

Thanks for the response. I was thinking a hemostat, but a skewer sounds quicker. I'm just trying to think of how you'd go about setting it up so that you aren't fishing around trying to skewer a tidbit and giving the bird time to demonstrate other behaviors. I suppose you set it up before getting the hawk out so that you already have a plate of tidbits hidden behind you. Possibly with several already skewered? Or a bunch already skewered hidden in your pocket?

[JRedig]

Use a light with a foot switch to control stimulus.

Also, why would the bird end up bound to your free hand from high level tidbitting? Hang on to the jesses better!!!

[melissasparrots]

Use a light with a foot switch to control stimulus.

Also, why would the bird end up bound to your free hand from high level tidbitting? Hang on to the jesses better!!!

I was more concerned about the bird generalizing the knowledge that food comes from the free hand, and then starting to watch for it and do a quick grab in situations that allow enough freedom. Such as seeing me reach into my pocket for a tidbit to have the bird jump up from the lure in the field and deciding to jump to the free hand. Would make for a little more of a tricky maneuver trying to get a tidbit into the gloved hand if the bird knows that first it passes to the free hand from that pocket. Or even if I reach behind my back to get a tidbit, anticipating that move and jumping for the free hand if I do a similar movement.
Possibly I'm just picking the technique apart too much being a lowly apprentice. My parrots know cheese come from the refrigerator and if I have one loose in the house, I'm likely to end up with a bird on me when I open the fridge. Don't want to reach behind my back to scratch my shoulder and have a hawk coming out of a tree thinking its going to get something yummy because that same motion often gets a treat out of that free hand. I did have a couple times last year with the current bird where I accidentally made a motion with the glove that she interpreted as being about to be called and she was coming in when I didn't anticipate it. Not really a problem, but tended to put things to a halt momentarily.

[jal4470]

I was more concerned about the bird generalizing the knowledge that food comes from the free hand, and then starting to watch for it and do a quick grab in situations that allow enough freedom. Such as seeing me reach into my pocket for a tidbit to have the bird jump up from the lure in the field and deciding to jump to the free hand. Would make for a little more of a tricky maneuver trying to get a tidbit into the gloved hand if the bird knows that first it passes to the free hand from that pocket. Or even if I reach behind my back to get a tidbit, anticipating that move and jumping for the free hand if I do a similar movement.


If you are flying a redtail and this happens, in my experience it is because you over trained the bird. If you are spending a good deal of time training and keep the bird sharp you can be in for a world of hurt. If you keep the training limited to, don't fear me, come when I call, pay attention to me in the field you shouldn't have this problem. I have fed a number of redtails by hand, from head level and never had one grab at me. But I don't keep my birds hot and I don't train more than I have to to get by. If you do keep your bird hot and over train it, you won't be able to avoid it figuring out where the food is coming from.

[dbleyepatches]

I am also an apprentice and I have only flown two redtails, so take this for what it's worth. I found that if you want your passage redtail to hood well when you really need it (medical procedure, late catch a mile from your vehicle, etc...) then you had better hood the bird on a regular basis. Maybe it was my hood training, but when I stopped hooding my second bird for a week or two there was a noticeable difference in her willingness to accept the hood.

I know some falconers that do not hood their redtails and some of them fly great birds, but I am going to continue hooding mine.

[melissasparrots]

If you are flying a redtail and this happens, in my experience it is because you over trained the bird. If you are spending a good deal of time training and keep the bird sharp you can be in for a world of hurt. If you keep the training limited to, don't fear me, come when I call, pay attention to me in the field you shouldn't have this problem. I have fed a number of redtails by hand, from head level and never had one grab at me. But I don't keep my birds hot and I don't train more than I have to to get by. If you do keep your bird hot and over train it, you won't be able to avoid it figuring out where the food is coming from.

Yeah, I'm reasonably confident my last bird was over trained which didn't help much of anything. She was never aggressive to my free hand though. More so the face. Personally I'd rather be grabbed in the hand than the face any day. However, we did work through it and she eventually stopped that. However, I never let her see food in my free hand either, which is probably why she never went for it. It was suggested to me that I look into a strobe light for hood training and then I got side tract by this thread since this form of training is more familiar to me and there have been a few times I would have liked to use it as a fall back for daily handling like jess swap, breast/fatness assessment etc, but didn't know how to handle food with a raptor without accidentally training food related aggression that I'd likely regret later.

[jal4470]

So many of you proficient holders may already know this and think, yeah that's what we keep saying but I recently had a breakthrough in understanding how to hood train a bird and I figured I would share and see what other people thought.

The standard, old school advice for hood training a bird is to bring the hood up to the chest, then take it away, when that works bring the hood a little closer untill, incremental you can pop the hood on. This never worked for me and I couldn't figure out why. My birds would lean back, doge, bate, bite and generaly make my life hell.

My realization was the taking hood away was the reward for standing still. So now I show the hood to the bird and if the bird stands still, then I take it away. Next I bring it a little closer, wait till the bird stands still, then take it away. If the bird bates, I wait untill it regains the fist and stands still, then I take the hood away. As I progressively bring the hood closer ND closer the bird is learning the best way to deal with the pressure of the hood coming up is to stay still. Usually the first time ever the hood goes on, after after trapping, the bird dosn' doge, bate or lean back, because it has learned the best way to deal with the pressure of the hood coming up to its face is to stand still. This has worked well with the last two birds I have worked with, but that could be dumb luck.

Thoughts? Does this resonate with anyone else, or a I just grasping at straws? Thanks

[SOF]

So many of you proficient holders may already know this and think, yeah that's what we keep saying but I recently had a breakthrough in understanding how to hood train a bird and I figured I would share and see what other people thought.

The standard, old school advice for hood training a bird is to bring the hood up to the chest, then take it away, when that works bring the hood a little closer untill, incremental you can pop the hood on. This never worked for me and I couldn't figure out why. My birds would lean back, doge, bate, bite and generaly make my life hell.

My realization was the taking hood away was the reward for standing still. So now I show the hood to the bird and if the bird stands still, then I take it away. Next I bring it a little closer, wait till the bird stands still, then take it away. If the bird bates, I wait untill it regains the fist and stands still, then I take the hood away. As I progressively bring the hood closer ND closer the bird is learning the best way to deal with the pressure of the hood coming up is to stay still. Usually the first time ever the hood goes on, after after trapping, the bird dosn' doge, bate or lean back, because it has learned the best way to deal with the pressure of the hood coming up to its face is to stand still. This has worked well with the last two birds I have worked with, but that could be dumb luck.

Thoughts? Does this resonate with anyone else, or a I just grasping at straws? Thanks

That is the way I think of it, and it follows operant conditioning behaviour theory. Another way that I thought to train my falcon is to give it the biggest reward it can get: food. Here's how I do it.
Put the hood on and present some food to the hawk(but don't let him feel it at his feet or he will bite blindly looking for food=bad manners). Then take the hood off and let him eat. Eventually he will pair the hood with the food and the hood will mean to him; Food is on the way!

I've done this with my new tiercel this year and hooding him is a breeze... But I prefer to use some hoods over others as I have noticed he is calmer with better fitting hoods, and hoods that just 'sit' on his head without being tightened.

Anyways, hope that helps.

[SOF]

I would second what Tony said. Find Raul Ramerize's video on high level hooding and get started right now. Bring your comfort level up with regards to tethering by using the Lyman method if you haven't already. Braided jesses, braided extender, braided leash.

"Layman method"...LOL...