Favorite accipiter books

[AK Rev]

I think I own most of them but on the chance I don't, what are your favorite accipiter books? Here's a list from memory that are good...

Anything McElroy writes...McDermott also...A Hawk for the Bush...Argue's translation of Training the Short-Winged Hawk...Cooper's Hawk: Cross Timber Chronicle...what else? There are some other gos books in my library but they are of lesser quality. Everyone should read T.H. White's The Goshawk since it's just good literature (on what NOT to do).

There is a shortage of material on passage short wings in my opinion. I know that Bill Boni is finishing up a book on passage Cooper's. Anything else coming out? When are we going to get a good collection of passage goshawk info? Somebody needs to write The Passage Accipiter.

[wyodjm]

I'm a big fan of Mavro's books. Also Bert's An Approved Treatise of Hawks and Hawking. There's also E.W. Jameson's The Hawking of Japan.

Great idea on a good book on passage Accipiters. However, more specifically on passage goshawks. But by multiple authors who have had multiple birds. A collaborative work. Collectively discussing their specialties such as manning, training, equipment, housing, diet, intermewing, and weight control. Things like that. Also things like seeling and perhaps water-boarding. Hooding also. Hawking ducks, hawking upland birds, hawking rabbits, hawking jacks.

I almost forgot trapping. You can't get a passage goshawk unless you trap it. Trapping equipment, where to trap, when to trap and so on.

"Knowledge is proud that he has learned so much; Wisdom is humble that he knows no more" ~ Cowper

[AK Rev]

Forgot to mention Jameson's books. I also have his book on Shortwinged Hawks. They are not cheap!

[PHILADELPHIA CITY HAWKER]

"Cooper's Hawk: Cross Timber Chronicle" - awesome book on the Coopers! my favorite, great writer !

[hcmcelroy]

The book that influenced me mostly was R Stevens Observations. That really made me think of hawks as individuals and of coursee it was for the longwingers. Mavro and McDermott are also up there but my all time favorite on the accipiters is not a falconry book but research about the gos. Robert Kenward, "The Goshawk" what a wonderful book it is!

Harry.

[AK Rev]

Thanks Harry for your reply. I have Steven's book and also Kenward's...although I haven't read the latter. I need to. I also have the gyr book in that series but haven't read it yet either!

[goshawkr]

... but my all time favorite on the accipiters is not a falconry book but research about the gos. Robert Kenward, "The Goshawk" what a wonderful book it is!


I'll have to agree with Harry - that is an amazing book. It was done as a research book by a well respected goshawk biologist, but Kenward is also a very experienced austringer, and there is some falconry sprinkled in.

Harry, there was a similar monotopic book done on the coopers hawk. Have you read that one?

[AK Rev]

Geoff, I would love to know the title of the Cooper's book. There was a small series from that publisher. I have the gyr book but I'm not aware of what other titles were available.

[PeteJ]

No one has mentioned Perkin's "Understanding Goshawks"? Hmm. I just know the title, I haven't read it or heard much about it.

[AK Rev]

Actually Pete, I was referring to that title when I said there were lesser titles not worth mentioning. I honestly couldn't get through it. The quality is quite poor, sad to say...to the point of being distracting. I'm sure he spent a lot of effort and money on it.

[GONEHAWKN]

I honestly couldn't get through it. The quality is quite poor, sad to say...to the point of being distracting. I'm sure he spent a lot of effort and money on it.

so i am not the only one? i am not here to speak badly of Darryl, but the book looks like something that someone put together on a pc and home printer....i could not get through it either..i am quite sure the book has plenty to offer in the info department too.....

[wayf]

Do yourselves a favor and use perkins book to start a fire next winter! That is all it is worth.

[goshawkr]

so i am not the only one? i am not here to speak badly of Darryl, but the book looks like something that someone put together on a pc and home printer....i could not get through it either..i am quite sure the book has plenty to offer in the info department too.....

Darryl has quite a reputation as an austringer, and while I have never been in the field with him I am sure that is well earned. I am sure he has a lot of good info to share.

After 4-5 years of anticipation I finally got my hands on a copy of his book. I was really dissapointed with the production quality, but the images are just fluff so I dug into the meat of it and eagerly read it.

I made it about 1/4 of the way and set it down, then gave it to a club fund raiser.

There is good stuff in there, but this book was written over several years and it shows. Its like 1,000 emails about goshawks roughly stitched together. It is badly in need of some copy editing and some idea cohesion in the writing.

[carlosR]

Waterboarding? I thought's what they do to terrorists..
Perkins book is actually not bad info-wise. The quality of the print is bad but I've enjoyed reading his ideas and descriptions.
Two books that should be on any Austringers shelf are actually written for longwingers. These are "The Flying Of Falcons" and "The Four Week Window". Not the typical how-to but rather an attempt to understand behavior and development.

[goshawkr]

Geoff, I would love to know the title of the Cooper's book. There was a small series from that publisher. I have the gyr book but I'm not aware of what other titles were available.

I havent seen it, but its called "the coopers hawk."

That publisher did several books that are mono-specific antholigies of published scientific field study data. I dont know which ones they did them on - my obsession is goshawks, I have the one on goshawks, DONE! in my mind. :D

The one on goshawks is a great read, as Harry mentioned. Although there is some field data cited in it from a bumbling idiot who worked up here in WA, and I had a hard time reminding myself to trust that he was just an anomoly. Kenward is clearly a good scientist, and cant be blamed for not knowing that this one guy he cited was a moron.

[goshawkr]

Waterboarding? I thought's what they do to terrorists..
Perkins book is actually not bad info-wise. The quality of the print is bad but I've enjoyed reading his ideas and descriptions.
Two books that should be on any Austringers shelf are actually written for longwingers. These are "The Flying Of Falcons" and "The Four Week Window". Not the typical how-to but rather an attempt to understand behavior and development.

I havnt read "the flying of falcons" (yet) but I was quite surprised when I heard Ed Pitcher speak at one of our state field meets when he was promoting that book by how closely his ideas came to some of my core philosopies. I certainly dont apply them as well as he does, but I can attest that they work very well for accipiters.

[AK Rev]

I recently read the 4 Week Window. I thought it was a great read and recommend it. I love reading ideas on hacking.

I really need to finish Pitcher's book. I've said that before and still haven't finished it! Several people that are falconry influences in my life have commented on how much that book has affected them. It's a quantum shift in falconry philosophy. Thanks for the reminder to get it finished.

[wyodjm]

Waterboarding? I thought's what they do to terrorists.

I didn't come up with the term. I don't know who did. Dan Konkel has been using this technique to man chamber raised gyrs for a few years. I guess it works really well. Steve Jones was here visiting this past weekend and he is sold on it. He's water-boarded over 50 gyrs and and gyr hybrids while helping Konkel. He suggested I try it on the next passage goshawk I get.

I'd like to learn more about it. I've never seen it done. It involves totally drenching the bird up to its neck and then carrying the bird on the fist while it is soaking wet, and not having it want to bate. That's where they got the name water-boarding.

I forgot waking as a manning tool for passage goshawks also. I'm only referencing books on passage goshawks specifically. That's where I see a gap in the more recent literature.

[carlosR]

Thanks for clarifying and I see the analogy. For books written on training the passage goshawk read Bert's "An Approved Treatise On Hawks And Hawking", also Ferreiras' "Falconry". Lots of information on the hawk of choice in the 1600's.

[hcmcelroy]

Dan,

The East Indians use the brail on pass gos to good advantage. I've used it on Cooper's and late passage HH. It really calms them down and if loosly fitted the birds can fly up to 25 feet so it is good for early creance training if one can bare to deviate from the norm a bit.

Harry.

[hcmcelroy]

Geoff,

Where can I purchase the Cooper's book you mentioned?
Thanks,

Harry.

[wyodjm]

Dan,

The East Indians use the brail on pass gos to good advantage. I've used it on Cooper's and late passage HH. It really calms them down and if loosly fitted the birds can fly up to 25 feet so it is good for early creance training if one can bare to deviate from the norm a bit.

Harry.

Hi Harry:

Yes, you're absolutely right of course...as usual. The brail completely slipped my mind. I've used brails on passage eagles. No need to explain deviating from the norm here Harry. I understand.

Also, on getting passage birds back into physical condition after intermewing them, I really like the rope training method. With eagles. There is a good chance I'll never use a creance again. However, I must admit I've never used the method with an intermewed passage goshawk yet.

Best,

Dan

[AK Rev]

I checked the publisher (T & AD Poyser) to see the rest of the series...nothing on Cooper's.

http://isbndb.com/d/publisher/t_a_d_poyser_a01.html

Harry, I was reading through some of your writings last night and saw again your mention of the brail. A search of the major suppliers didn't turn anything up. Do you know of a source or do you have to make your own? If so, which book has a good pattern? Thanks.

[PeteJ]

Not sure if these titles would help but here's some links.
The first is for "Cooper's Hawk: Accipiter cooperii" by Robert N. Rosenfield, John Bielefeldt, American Ornithologists' Union, Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia http://books.google.com/books/about/Cooper_s_hawk.html?id=FEOTGQAACAAJ

And then there's "The Cooper's Hawk: Accipiter cooperii" by Heinz Meng http://books.google.com/books?id=TjRBAAAAYAAJ&source=gbs_book_similarbooks

[frootdog]

The Sparrowhawk by O'Broin is in my library. Has some good info.

As far as Perkins' book goes. I have it and have read it. I did not think it was all that bad. The quality of the pics suck and that's unfourtunate. Is his book anything groundbreaking? No. I think 2 things happened. First people have a hard time separating the falconer/author from the former NAFA Pres. Darryl had the misfourtune of being chosen to be the figurehead of a (at the time) sinking ship. Second it seems like with anything it's not cool to have an opposing opinion. Hell the first person to bring up the book admitted to not having read it, and another poster that said it sucked admitted to not having finished it. Some of the first "reviews" of the book were critical and it just snowballed from there. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's some great literary work but it's not terrible either. I do often wonder how the book would have been recieved had it not been published so soon after his NAFA Presidency. Now I should go back and reread it to refresh my memory.

[PeteJ]

In my own defense about not having read it, but bringing it up? The original poster was talking about accipiter books in his library and I knew that Perkin's book existed and perhaps mention of the book had been overlooked is all. I didn't read it for the same reason I didn't read McDermott's book, both of them had approaches to their accipiters that I had no interest in is all. I think recipes are for cooks that don't know how to cook, and making a lot of meals doesn't mean you can cook. The cat-like mentality of accipiters makes them so variable in their reactions that the austringer either has the ability to read them (inherently or developed) or never will. I know several very qualified falconers that would love nothing better than to have a wonderful, long-term Goshawk, but no matter how hard they try they just can't seem to make it happen. Its difficult to put a finger on exactly why they can't, but if I had to guess I think its likely that the are trying too hard to lead that bird, and accipiters just seem to do better if you let them lead you.

[Richard]

so i am not the only one? i am not here to speak badly of Darryl, but the book looks like something that someone put together on a pc and home printer....i could not get through it either..i am quite sure the book has plenty to offer in the info department too.....

I think it was done as a "get your foot in the door" type of thing for becoming a writer..... He probably should have become the writer first and then published the book.

I haven't seen it, though, and don't want to. But it's more of a personal thing with me. He was the NAFA president during "Operation Witch Hunt" here in Colorado and would not even reply to emails sent to him about it. Then at the NAFA meet, he refused to even discuss it after many of us who were involved had waited all day in the meeting room having requested a discussion. It was the typical NAFA "bury your head in the sand" attitude, and he was the head at the time.

[MrBill]

Man, you guys are brutal when it comes to Darryl's book. Understand, I have only met him a couple of times at NAFA meets, so I don't know him at all. And, I have not read his book. But, I do know it takes courage to publish a well-intended treatise on any hawk. I remembe that this same thing happened here with regard to Harry's last book (not quite as bad, of course), and my response was, make the plunge and publish your own book before blatently criticizing other people's well-intentioned efforts, particularly on an open forum like this. While Darryl may not have composed it as well as he sould have, which is what it appears, give him credit for writing and publsihing information that he felt would benefit the falconry community in some way. And, who really cares about the fact that it may not appear to have been published by Hancock House Publishing; if this were the case Harry's early books would have never been well-received by the falconry community, which, of course, was not the case, as we were more interested in what he had to say, and he had plenty of information to offer us. It is easy to be critical.

Pete, I agree with you, as I think most folks do--there are too many variables for an all encompassing recipe to work, but there are some rudimentary things that can be said in general about individual species, that can, of course, be incorporated in an overall training method (IMHO).

Bill Boni

[MrBill]

Richard writes;

>I think it was done as a "get your foot in the door" type of thing for becoming a writer..... He probably should have become the writer first and then published the book.

I haven't seen it, though

Well, Richard, I guess you should read it first before commenting about his writing ability. And, of course, people have been on you for years to publish something about the goshawk, but you have not done so. I am fairly cetain that you realize, perhaps more than most, the difficulty of taking pen in hand and putting your thoughts out there on a given species in book form; it's not for the weak of heart, that's for sure, because everything you write is going to be scrutinized and, in some cases, unnecessary criticized.

I can't say much about Darryl's tenure as President of NAFA, because I was pretty much out of the loop in those days, but I can say that he was elected for an unprecedented three terms.

Bill Boni

[AK Rev]

This thread isn't intended to bash any writer or book...just the opposite. Let's discuss what books you LIKE. :) That's why I didn't mention every accipiter book out there in the initial post. I'm wondering which good ones I have missed...or discuss the ones mentioned that you do like.

[Richard]

Well, Richard, I guess you should read it first before commenting about his writing ability. And, of course, people have been on you for years to publish something about the goshawk, but you have not done so. I am fairly cetain that you realize, perhaps more than most, the difficulty of taking pen in hand and putting your thoughts out there on a given species in book form; it's not for the weak of heart, that's for sure, because everything you write is going to be scrutinized and, in some cases, unnecessary criticized.

I can't say much about Darryl's tenure as President of NAFA, because I was pretty much out of the loop in those days, but I can say that he was elected for an unprecedented three terms. Bill Boni

I reckon you're right Bill. I've been seeing the mortality thing showing it's ugly head lately with my getting older and wimpier and losing family and friends. I guess I'd best get on with it! I have been thinking about it lately and what format to use and all. I'm thinking about an autobiography wrapped up in falconry with a bit of how I done it.

I'd best not say any more about Perkins. I'm thinking he was probably in the wrong place at the wrong time and got the usual NAFA "counseling" from his "staff". BTW, the NAFA president isn't elected, he's appointed by the Board. The Board is elected, but the folks in charge push hard to get only the people they want on it.

[AK Rev]

For what it's worth, there is a gap in modern writing on passage goshawks. Personally, I think an anthology/collection is a great approach to that but if anyone decides to write a gos book...I'll buy it. That's the point of my initial post...just the idea that I might be missing a good book makes me itchy.

Anyone like "Goshawk: God Made You Eternal"? I've got it but have only read a couple of chapters.

[MrBill]

Richard,

I think your idea of writing about your life in falconry would certainly be the better way to go (as you suggest), as the book would be of more value, since you have been an avid falconer for many years; in other words, writing specifically about the goshawk would limit the information that you have to offer the falconry community based upon your life experiences along the way. You had better get started :-)

Bill Boni

[PeteJ]

.....
Pete, I agree with you, as I think most folks do--there are too many variables for an all encompassing recipe to work, but there are some rudimentary things that can be said in general about individual species, that can, of course, be incorporated in an overall training method (IMHO).

Bill Boni
I guess my point about that was, books are useful for getting your feet wet, but you won't swim if you don't actually do something with the bird you are reading about. With accipiters probably more than any other group, the relationship with most falconers is extremely transitory for various reasons. I think that having someone give you a cookie cutter and some dough isn't really going to help you much with these creatures. They're just cut from such an odd fabric compared to the others that it is really difficult to find a common thread that can be woven throughout them as a group.
Obviously I'm not saying don't buy and read books. Just understand that with accipiters it has more to do with how YOUR personality is and how it will mesh with your individual accipiters than it is how well you can follow directions. Your personality and how you do things will actually dictate your success with accipiters more than how many books you might have read about them.

[hcmcelroy]

Bryan,

The use of the brail is on pg 117 and the drawing is on pg 29 of DH with a little help...

Or I can copy and send those pages.

Harry.

[AK Rev]

Harry, I have your book so I will look that up. Feel free to post it if you want and/or any comments you have on the use of it. Thanks.

[JRedig]

I guess my point about that was, books are useful for getting your feet wet, but you won't swim if you don't actually do something with the bird you are reading about. With accipiters probably more than any other group, the relationship with most falconers is extremely transitory for various reasons. I think that having someone give you a cookie cutter and some dough isn't really going to help you much with these creatures. They're just cut from such an odd fabric compared to the others that it is really difficult to find a common thread that can be woven throughout them as a group.
Obviously I'm not saying don't buy and read books. Just understand that with accipiters it has more to do with how YOUR personality is and how it will mesh with your individual accipiters than it is how well you can follow directions. Your personality and how you do things will actually dictate your success with accipiters more than how many books you might have read about them.

I just thought this should be posted again...it's that good. :D

In regards to the topic at hand, i've got most of the gos books listed here and like them all.

Personally, I don't think perkins book is as bad as portrayed. The pictures could be better, no doubt, but there is a lot of info and he's willing to put out his experience, kudo's for that. It's helped me more after working with a few birds than before hand.

[MrBill]

>They're just cut from such an odd fabric compared to the others that it is really difficult to find a common thread that can be woven throughout them as a group.

I think the fact that you are lumping all accipters in your statment is exactly what I am talking about; for example, we know that accipters are edgy, some more than others, so we incorporate this general understanding of the species into our training programs.

As far as how we play into the scenario, I have written an article for the August Hawk Chalk entitled that touches on this topic. You might find it a bit interesting . . . . and you might not :-)

Bill Boni

[PeteJ]

>They're just cut from such an odd fabric compared to the others that it is really difficult to find a common thread that can be woven throughout them as a group.

I think the fact that you are lumping all accipters in your statment is exactly what I am talking about; for example, we know that accipters are edgy, some more than others, so we incorporate this general understanding of the species into our training programs.

As far as how we play into the scenario, I have written an article for the August Hawk Chalk entitled that touches on this topic. You might find it a bit interesting . . . . and you might not :-)

Bill Boni
Indeed. But until you've had one, can you really know what edgy is? I think for most of the uninitiated what they think edgy is nothing compared to what they EVENTUALLY will understand it is. For instance, haven't you ever had someone (observing your bird as you pick it up to go flying) say to you after seeing it bating like a mad, crazy bird "Are you really going to take that bird out like that?" and of course you assure them that the outward expression of that bird at that time has nothing to do with how it will be once you get to the field in 20 minutes. To the newbie this bird will appear to be totally wild, yet, once in the field will probably perch on the arm of a stranger provided that person is helping to reflush quarry that the bird has put in. Yet, ten minutes later that same bird might not let that stranger get within 20 feet of it. You have to admit, this is quite the juxtaposition compared to falcons and buteos!

[hcmcelroy]

Krys,

Yes, Obrion's, The Sparrowhawk is a grand one. I completely forgot...anyway as I read it I kept wondering how he could keep track of something as small and shifty as a spar without telemetry. I found no mention of the radio in it.

Harry.

[Big Foot]

For what it's worth, there is a gap in modern writing on passage goshawks. Personally, I think an anthology/collection is a great approach to that but if anyone decides to write a gos book...I'll buy it. That's the point of my initial post...just the idea that I might be missing a good book makes me itchy.

Anyone like "Goshawk: God Made You Eternal"? I've got it but have only read a couple of chapters.

I've read "goshawk:god made you eternal"
It's quite nice- not mind blowing. It's a memoir of a Spanish austringer, with a little bit of how he trained his birds and found nests.
I quite enjoyed it.
It had some very cool 70's falconry pic's and some other interesting stuff like Harris cooper hybrid pictures.
Overall worth the money..

[MrBill]

>But until you've had one, can you really know what edgy is?

Pete, I guess what I was responding to was your idea regarding the difficulty finding a common thread amongs accipters. So, we might be getting a little off track here, as we were not talking about what other people might think of our accipters. We were talking about the austringers take on things (I think). But, for the sake of discussion, I think most folks would have a pretty good idea of the term "edgy." I say this because enough has been written (now) that would pretty much define what "edgy" means in terms of accipters; for example, we know that edgy translates in to feather and feet care, particularly in the mews; so, people make allowances for that edgy behavior by paying particular attention to those areas. And, let's face it, lots of people have been exposed to the antics of imprinted Cooper's (and goshwaks), in real terms, what edgy can can translate into in the field. It's kind of like the old cliche, "A doctor doesn't have to cut himself to understand the pain a patient might be feeling."

Bill Boni

[Flynn]

Liam O Broin - A Manual for Hawking. Based on sparrowhawks.

[AK Rev]

Thanks Ricco. I'll make a mental note to finish it. It's actually an attractive book. Somebody spent some $ to produce it.

Is O'Brion's book focused on imprints? I'm assuming there is no passage take there?

[wyodjm]

For what it's worth, there is a gap in modern writing on passage goshawks. Personally, I think an anthology/collection is a great approach to that but if anyone decides to write a gos book...I'll buy it. That's the point of my initial post...just the idea that I might be missing a good book makes me itchy.

There is a gap in the recent literature devoted specifically on passage goshawks. I wonder why sometimes. But then, there is a bit of trivia that may explain why.

From the time Edmund Bert published his Approved Treatise of Hawks and Hawking in 1619, there wasn't another single work published on passage Accipiters again until Jack Mavrogordato's book A Hawk For the Bush in 1960. And Mavro's book focused primarily on sparrowhawks, not goshawks. But still that's a 341 year gap in the literature on anything to do with passage Accipiters.

There really hasn't been a need to write on passage goshawks from the European perspective because there hasn't been a wild take of passage European goshawks in years.

That leaves us with the North American passage goshawk. And the clock may be ticking on the availability of our North American goshawk as well. If the feds can lock up the take of a common, non-endangered species such as the golden eagle for falconry purposes, what's to stop them from locking up the take of goshawks from the wild for falconry? I would think goshawks would be a much more vulnerable species of concern than eagles.

Yes indeed, there is a genuine gap in modern writing of passage goshawks.

[carlosR]

I love falconry books. Books are very useful as well as recipes but only as guides. Unlike using a map you probably won't end up where you want to be by following the route laid out for you.
Again I'm reminded of my younger goshawk years and my pitiful efforts at training passage goshawks according to the "Book", especially compared to a Native kid's redtails. He wasn't following any method other than what seemed practical to him. He raised a nest of redtails, tame-hacked them, they followed him while he hunted and eventually started catching their own food. He would call them down from soaring with deermeat tossed in the air. He said I kept hawks prisoner, in retrospect he was right but I was following some ancient method in a book. I guess I've come full circle now. I'm going to tame-hack my eyas gos this spring and let her follow me and probably even call her down to the lure I toss in the air. I guess I should have apprenticed under that Native kid years ago.

[slope-soar]

'THE SPARROWHAWK' by Ian Newton, an indepth study of the sparrowhawk over a 14 year between 72 to 84 in the south scotland,where they traped and placed transmitters on birds to see what distance there habitat was, there is to much in this book to list everything, but if you read this book and can digest the info there wont be much that you wont no about this species.

ATB, Mike.

[PHILADELPHIA CITY HAWKER]

I really need to finish Pitcher's book........... its a quantum shift in falconry philosophy.

Nice book, not sure if it will be labeled as the quantum shift in falconry philosophy, many falconers have attempted to travel down that road but were hindered by field constrants and a good supply of falcons and pigeons. Some see it as extended tame hacking in the field to reach the point of "self actualization" of the falcon. I think there could have been more done on taking advantage and exploit the "window of opportunity" or what you recently read on the "four week window". Otherwise a good book to set the stage for flying falcons.

[AK Rev]

I used that phrase (my own words) re: Pitcher's book due to the fact that I keep hearing widely respected falconers that specialize in non-falcons saying how much this book has affected them. I don't know of another recently written book that has philosophically affected falconers to this extent.

Is the book controversial? Absolutely...just look at some of the threads on it here. Is it what you would have written? Probably not...and that's fine because it's another man's philosophy. Is it a game changer? Seems to be so for a number of falconers.

[goshawkr]

There really hasn't been a need to write on passage goshawks from the European perspective because there hasn't been a wild take of passage European goshawks in years.

This is siderailing the thread some, but is this really true? Did the central european nations that had an open passage take (German, the Czeck republic, Austria, etc.) close down take?

And actually, I have been led to believe that even Britian has not closed off passage take. There is just so much red tape involved no one has bothered for a few decades.

[goshawkr]

Man, you guys are brutal when it comes to Darryl's book. Understand, I have only met him a couple of times at NAFA meets, so I don't know him at all. And, I have not read his book. But, I do know it takes courage to publish a well-intended treatise on any hawk. I remembe that this same thing happened here with regard to Harry's last book (not quite as bad, of course), and my response was, make the plunge and publish your own book before blatently criticizing other people's well-intentioned efforts, particularly on an open forum like this.

Modern technology has made it far too easy to publish. Now anyone, and I mean anyone, can throw together a book. With electronic books, and eBook readers, you dont even need to scrape up the costs for printing it because its effectively free.

Just because someone CAN write a book dosnt mean they should.

Just because someone HAS written a book dosnt make it worth reading.

Kent Carnie has been grumbling about that for years, and I agree with his assessment. There have been more falconry books published in the last 15 years than in the 1000 years before that time. What does that say? Is there really that much new and worthwhile information on falconry out there?

No, what that really means is that there is a whole of dribble to wade through before finding stuff that is worth spending your time on.

Some stand out, including some that have been written recently, and I believe that is the whole point of Bryan's thread here. To try and get the ones that are exceptional to float to the top.

Someone asked about Daryls book, and honest opinions were given.

I dont have a lot of time to spend reading about falconry, so I optomize my time. Daryl's book didnt make the cut. It still has value, but its certainly not in the top tier.

[goshawkr]

There is a gap in the recent literature devoted specifically on passage goshawks. I wonder why sometimes. But then, there is a bit of trivia that may explain why.

From the time Edmund Bert published his Approved Treatise of Hawks and Hawking in 1619, there wasn't another single work published on passage Accipiters again until Jack Mavrogordato's book A Hawk For the Bush in 1960. And Mavro's book focused primarily on sparrowhawks, not goshawks. But still that's a 341 year gap in the literature on anything to do with passage Accipiters.

After Bert wrote his book, what else really needed to be written? Maybe its that simple. :D

Even 90% of the "innovation" in McDermott's book is in there.

[AK Rev]

I agree with you Geoff. I don't know McDermott but I would say that his discussion on hot zone, breaking it down with graphs, etc. was a step forward. Much of that and the rest of his writing was developed through careful observation of numerous falconer's logs. Nothing wrong with that...that's efficient and intelligent. It certainly helped my understanding without practicing on multiple birds to read the results of many other birds being worked with. It will help me (and others) by giving a "heads up". His writings on night hawking were interesting and useful. Whether you practice that or not, training to return to a flashlight is smart.

Then there is the tame hack...I continue to be fascinated by the subject. That's a great development that warrants further study and consideration...hence, the recent interest in the 4 week window. I'm sure it's been done by others (probably even for a long time) but this makes the info more accessible to us. It seems, through tame hacking, that even the Cooper's is becoming easier to work with. Let nature iron out the wrinkles on these birds.

[goshawkr]

I agree with you Geoff. I don't know McDermott but I would say that his discussion on hot zone, breaking it down with graphs, etc. was a step forward. Much of that and the rest of his writing was developed through careful observation of numerous falconer's logs. Nothing wrong with that...that's efficient and intelligent. It certainly helped my understanding without practicing on multiple birds to read the results of many other birds being worked with. It will help me (and others) by giving a "heads up". His writings on night hawking were interesting and useful. Whether you practice that or not, training to return to a flashlight is smart.


I think you misunderstood me - I was saying that most of the innovation attributed to McDermott can be found in Bert's writtings. Not all, and Mike certainly came up with new ways to explain it, as you indicated, but it wasnt new material, by and large. Night hawking is certainly an example of a new trick, one the I have used to my advantage when working hours prevent me from weekday hawking.

It certainly is not among MY favorite accipiter books.

In fact, I have a signed copy of his first book that is in perfect condition including the dust jacket if anyone wants it for fair market value. Now that it has hit collector status, I would rather trade it in for a collectible I would proudly pull off the shelf and read once in a while. I'll do an even trade for a good condition copy of the hawking of Japan.

[AK Rev]

No, I understood you and put it into my own words. Mike found some creative ways to update and freshen up what has largely been said in the past. He compiled a bunch of data and put it into modern language. Bert's book is not easily read. Argue's translation is easier...Mike put a different slant on it.

[AK Rev]

And its certainly not among MY favorite accipiter books.


I'm curious to hear what are your favorites?

[MrBill]

Geoff writes:

>Kent Carnie has been grumbling about that for years, and I agree with his assessment. There have been more falconry books published in the last 15 years than in the 1000 years before that time. What does that say? Is there really that much new and worthwhile information on falconry out there?

>No, what that really means is that there is a whole of dribble to wade through before finding stuff that is worth spending your time on.

What might be dribble to you may not be dribble to someone else, Geoff. Millions of books are published each year with very few of them getting on the Best Seller's list, yet they are a source of enjoyment and education for lots of people; otherwise, there would not be a market for them.

As far as Kent Carnie is concerned, I don't understand why he would be upset with people reinventing the wheel (as far as he is concerned). What difference does that have to do with him? Does it somehow harm falconry?

Geoff, you put yourself on a pedestal when you suggest that what most people write isn't worth reading. I would suggest that you write something, so that we could be made aware of your literary credentials.

Bill Boni

[goshawkr]

I'm curious to hear what are your favorites?


The Goshawk by Robert Kenward
Edmund Bert's treatise
These two are all you really need. The first is a great examination of what makes goshawks in particular tick, and leads to an understanding of how they think and work.

The second gives you allmost all you need to know to put that knowledge into practicle falconry


The rest of my list is:
Understanding Birds of Prey by Nick Fox
The Hawking of Japan by Jameson
Desert Hawking series (havent read the most recent one, but the other 3 are great)
Shortwing Hawks by Jameson (mostly a literature review of
published books and articles, but its still good)
I would also join noted austringer Steve Bodio in recomending this one:

The Goshawk by T.H. White
Its a great annecdotal example of what can go wrong, and what not to do. Its also a remarkably honest view on a falconer making mistakes. Most of us are too ego centric to accept mistakes and gloss over them. Its very refreshing to see a falconry author who is willing to shine a spotlight on them.

[goshawkr]

Geoff, you put yourself on a pedestal when you suggest that what most people write isn't worth reading. I would suggest that you write something, so that we could be made aware of your literary credentials.


I knew you were going to say that.

Its my time - I'll spend it reading what I want. And I will freely recomend what others spend their time on. Beyond that its their choice.

[frootdog]

Desert Hawking series (havent read the most recent one, but the other 3 are great)

The new one is not about Accipiters at all. :D

[AK Rev]

The new one is not about Accipiters at all. :D

No, but it has some good aplomado/HH material in it and that's another gap in the literature. When is the HH book by Coulsons coming out? Where are the merlin books? Always something to look forward to (or complain about). Jim Nelson's hooding book is being indexed. Really looking forward to that one. I'm off topic but at least it's about books.

[goshawks00]

Most of the afore mentioned books are good reads. Harry's Desert Hawking II all 185 pgs. or so were very instrumental in my addiction to accipiters. Others included Bert's treaty and Jamison's stuff. McD.s writings clarified some of the things that are fundamental to imprints. That and a couple of books from the other island-- O'Broin and Newton are great reads, esp for small accips...my favorites. Once all that basic stuff is read... the best teachers are time and field experience.
Hacking, the new horizon, will be found to have such a huge impact on the imprint stability and over all mental/physical character, that sooner or later , something will be written as the new standard for proper social imprinting. Having hacked now some 15 different accipiters I am beginning to see just how different they can all be and how open minded you can be about what is 'normal' with imprint accips.
BTW Pete is so right, if you need a recipe to cook correctly, then you will not be using your creative processes in developing new and better ways of doing things.

[canvibe]

I agree with the dribble comment to the extent that yes there are parts of every book written that in my opinion are "recycled fillers", on the other hand many books I have read, some of which were gruelling to get through, do contain little gems of information unique to each of these. It might not always be the book as a whole which determines it's value, some books may have that one thought provoking paragraph that makes it worth reading.

[wyodjm]

Once all that basic stuff is read... the best teachers are time and field experience.

Hi Barry:

A fair summation.

My good friend Barrie Watson once shared a quote from Sir Walter Raleigh: "Books are wonderful things, but are a bloodless substitute for experience."

[Lowachi]

Hi Barry:

A fair summation.

My good friend Barrie Watson once shared a quote from Sir Walter Raleigh: "Books are wonderful things, but are a bloodless substitute for experience."


thumbsupp spent many an hour w/Barrie. I miss our talks. thanks for this.amennn

[hcmcelroy]

This thread includes the best of the philosophy concerning accipiters of what I've read in the past year while imprinting and flying my little male gos. Prettily done!
I don't want to stir the pot but my gut feeling about training accipiters is that the person who locks into a particular system often misses the target and may not adjust when problems are presented. This game requires an ecletic.

Harry.

[goshawks00]

Harry, that is a proven recipethumbsupp The best advice would probably be.. have a plan... and second plan.. a third... then have the sense to abandon them all and be able to do fire control. Along with that is the ability to think about a situation and the consequences before trying to implement it. :eek:

[Lee Slikkers]

Harry, that is a proven recipethumbsupp The best advice would probably be.. have a plan... and second plan.. a third... then have the sense to abandon them all and be able to do fire control. Along with that is the ability to think about a situation and the consequences before trying to implement it. :eek:

Therein lies the nugget of wisdom! Good thoughts and advice Barry~

[goshawkr]

Harry, that is a proven recipethumbsupp The best advice would probably be.. have a plan... and second plan.. a third... then have the sense to abandon them all and be able to do fire control. Along with that is the ability to think about a situation and the consequences before trying to implement it. :eek:

Thats beautifully insightful.

[carlosR]

Time for another accipiter book, on the tame hacked imprint and eyas.

[wyodjm]

Time for another accipiter book, on the tame hacked imprint and eyas.

I'd like to see one dedicated to passage birds.

[goshawks00]

Me too Dan, maybe Bert and Marvogodato said it all... Nay, there's got to be more to it than spitting water on them, and blow dope up their noses. No wait wasn't that the Arabs that do that.... Sorry just never paid enough attention to how they did it.

[wyodjm]

Me too Dan, maybe Bert and Marvogodato said it all... Nay, there's got to be more to it than spitting water on them, and blow dope up thier noses. No wait wasn't that the Arabs that do that.... Sorry just never paid enough attention to how they did it.

Hi Barry:

I'm not sure you can say it all.

I've kept about 11 golden eagles in my lifetime. Not including rehab eagles that were given to me for short periods of time. Nine passage birds trapped out of the wild. Not all of these were trapped by me. I gave a few away, I lost one, flying it too high and too soon, and two died of Asper before I could really do anything with them. The rest I released back into the wild.

I had an insatiable appetite to learn about passage eagles that only flying them could accomplish. Many of these eagles were worth their weight in gold. They were precious, awesome falconry eagles. I was constantly being humbled by most of them due to their intelligence and athletic prowess in the field.

I carefully studied different perching systems, housing, weathering them, nutrition, weight management, pair bonding, keeping them feather perfect, keeping them in the best physical condition possible during the season, intermewing them, keeping talons fishhook sharp, hoods and hooding, and bating issues just to mention a few. The list goes on and on. Looking back on all this, I just have more questions. It is my loss that I couldn't have started 20 years earlier flying passage eagles trapped out of the wild.

I would have liked to have had the same time with passage goshawks. I still would like to fly a few more. But there's only 24 hours in a day and we only have so much time. And none of us are getting any younger.

That is why a collaborative work on passage goshawks would probably be the best bet if a book was to be written. Collective experiences from serious austringers who have had good success with passage goshawks. Checking egos at the door and getting to work. The North American passage goshawk is a real gem of a bird. But so is a passage golden eagle.

Just reflecting.

Best,

[MrBill]

Dan writes:

>That is why a collaborative work on passage goshawks would probably be the best bet if a book was to be written. Collective experiences from serious austringers who have had good success with passage goshawks. Checking egos at the door and getting to work.

I think you are right, Dan. The problem is getting enough people to contribute to make the book worthwhile. I have been trying to get my anthology together for almost two years and there are only ten contributors. I think this would be a problem with the passage gos as well. More than ten people have flown the passage gos, but getting them to write about it would be problematic--take my word on it. And, to be honest, I don't know if I would encourage only those who have had "good success" with this hawk to contribute their experiences, as we can also learn a great deal from those who were unsuccessful (IMHO). As far as egos are concerned, you and I have discussed this topic many years ago, and I haven't really noticed any change in this area--they tend to get in the way of an completely honest sharing of information . . . . again, IMHO.

Bill Boni

[goshawks00]

Dan wrote"The North American passage goshawk is a real gem of a bird. But so is a passage golden eagle.

I am pretty sure you are correct in this assumption, and I'd add so are imprints. Of course you expected that right?
Reflections are good, it helps keep you going because they are lined with "what if I'd"s. I too wish I had flown a few passage goshawks, but then they they remind to much of some of the girls I dated when I was younger. Standoff-ish, head strong, beautiful but untouchable, reserved but highly motivated in the right situation. Easily spooked and always a tiny glint in their eyes , that house those far away thoughts of their past life.

[hcmcelroy]

Time for another accipiter book, on the tame hacked imprint and eyas.
Carlos,
I'm all for that if we could get rid of the immature golden who owns this hill we live on.
Harry.

[wyodjm]

Dan wrote"The North American passage goshawk is a real gem of a bird. But so is a passage golden eagle.

I am pretty sure you are correct in this assumption, and I'd add so are imprints. Of course you expected that right?
Reflections are good, it helps keep you going because they are lined with "what if I'd"s. I too wish I had flown a few passage goshawks, but then they they remind to much of some of the girls I dated when I was younger. Standoff-ish, head strong, beautiful but untouchable, reserved but highly motivated in the right situation. Easily spooked and always a tiny glint in their eyes , that house those far away thoughts of their past life.

Oh, in between eagles I flew a few nice goshawks also. The last passage gos I flew I released at the end of the season. Full circle. I didn't want to moult her out. You see, I love to fly fish also. I didn't want to feed a passage goshawk all summer.

Best,

[PHILADELPHIA CITY HAWKER]

I don't want to stir the pot but my gut feeling about training accipiters is that the person who locks into a particular system often misses the target and may not adjust when problems are presented. This game requires an ecletic.

Harry.

Well put, arm chair reading is one thing. Reading the bird and solving the problems provides great satisfaction. My Gos has sent me to places that no books has gone before (literally - LOL).

[MrBill]

Harry writes:

>I don't want to stir the pot

Harry, I have known you for many years now, and I know your feelings about "stirring the pot," but the sport NEEDS people like you to do a little stiring from time to time.

Bill Boni

[MrBill]

>and always a tiny glint in their eyes , that house those far away thoughts of their past life.

Very nice, almost poetic verbiage here, Barry.

Bill Boni

[AK Rev]

Great posts. I'm enjoying the discussion.

[FredFogg]

The Goshawk by Robert Kenward



Just bought this one on Amazon for $60. :D

[hcmcelroy]

Harry writes:

>I don't want to stir the pot

Harry, I have known you for many years now, and I know your feelings about "stirring the pot," but the sport NEEDS people like you to do a little stiring from time to time.

Bill Boni

Bill, I'll confess to some kinky ideas now and again but for the most part I'm a true conservative. Take for example the explaination of why we reduce the weight in hawks for taming. Research indicates the effect of reducing adrenocortical reduces fear. Not only that but the levels are different for individuals so that may influence why we have different levels of fearful behavior. Who knows we may trap with hyodermic needles in hand in the future.

Harry.

[MrBill]

Harry writes:

>Bill, I'll confess to some kinky ideas now and again but for the most part I'm a true conservative. Take for example the explaination of why we reduce the weight in hawks for taming. Research indicates the effect of reducing adrenocortical reduces fear. Not only that but the levels are different for individuals so that may influence why we have different levels of fearful behavior. Who knows we may trap with hyodermic needles in hand in the future

Harry, I don't think there is any doubt as to "why" we reduce hawks' weight. Also, I might be wrong but I don't think you can reduce adrenocortical, as the term is relating to the adrenal cortex which mediates stress. So it must be one of the products of the adrenal cortex, of which there are a few.

Bill Boni

[hcmcelroy]

Bill,

Reducing weight reduces the hormone and causes a reduction in fear. Some hawks have less of the hormone and less fear.

Harry.

[MrBill]

>Reducing weight reduces the hormone and causes a reduction in fear. Some hawks have less of the hormone and less fear.

That makes sense, Harry. I guess you were saying that people reduce weight to get their hawks to come around, not really understanding what was happening physiologically; and, you are probably right. But, I'm not sure it's all that important. Falconers have been successfully flying birds for over 4,000 years without knowing :-) But, the research you have read could explain why some passage birds are so difficult to get to come around as they get older. As you may recall in an article I recently wrote for HC, Dr. Douglas Mock, a Professor of Zoology at the University of Oklahoma, whose areas of interest is the social behavior of birds, believes this behavior to be hormonal in nature, as your research suggests, because of the rapidity of its development. This type of hormonal behavior, called "organizational effective behavior," occurs early in development and is a of a permanent nature, and not the result of any conscious decision by the hawk; for example, the onset of puberty revises our behavioral priorities, and as we grow older the opposite sex begins to take on a whole different meaning because of the effect of hormones. So, perhaps, as the hawk gets older this hormone increases and the bird becomes more fearful in a captive environment???

Bill Boni

[hcmcelroy]

Bill,

Yes, I agree, this recent body of research will change our habits little and many will maintain it is all in the stars anyway :-) However, it is possible if costs were not a factor that we could select passage hawks and perhaps select for breeding by monitoring these hormones.

Harry.

[MrBill]

It may all be in the stars, Harry, but it would be nice to know. And, as you know, hawks, like humans, react differently understressful situations. Maybe what causes some people to be heros and others not in similar stressful situations is not so much bravado, but level of hormones; that makes me feel better, being a coward and all. COWARDS UNITE!

Bill Boni

[Goshawk635]

Bill Boni[/QUOTE] And, to be honest, I don't know if I would encourage only those who have had "good success" with this hawk to contribute their experiences, as we can also learn a great deal from those who were unsuccessful (IMHO). As far as egos are concerned, you and I have discussed this topic many years ago, and I haven't really noticed any change in this area--they tend to get in the way of an completely honest sharing of information . . . . again, IMHO.

Bill Boni[/QUOTE]

Bill, I thought about this over the weekend and I think you have it in a nutshell. In the puppy breeder world they like "brags". Its also fun to read about success especially on a grand scale such as what we read here. The most meaningful of threads are those that include it all. The owl thread as an example was a great blend of ups and downs ... open and honest. In this arena, it lends itself to more immediate threads and updates. Interaction and adjustment ... even with at a distance interaction.

The written word in "dead tree books" as Kindle refers to them is more measured and often rewritten and edited so that one tends to smooth out maybe even distort reality. Once in a tome, it lives beyond our lives, potentially. People tend to be concerned about how they are remembered.

Harry's books have always carried that element to me. No promise of success but rather that of a journey in which the reality is failure, set backs and frustration are the way of life mixed with increasing success as we tune ourselves to the world of the accipiter. It is this journey that has captivated me. Natural science in a dance with my own self discovery.

Putting that in printed format is no easy thing ... it requires risk taking and openness that is not often rewarded in our society but has been so essential to our progress as people.

Bill, Dan and others, you have that ability to open your thoughts, successes and setbacks. It is from that heart that creative, insightful writing emerges .... please pursue the concept of writing these things down.

Phil Smith

Thanks for putting up with the cellphone formatting.

[MrBill]

Wow! That's some good prose, Phil.

Bill Boni

[Richard]

This thread includes the best of the philosophy concerning accipiters of what I've read in the past year while imprinting and flying my little male gos. Prettily done!
I don't want to stir the pot but my gut feeling about training accipiters is that the person who locks into a particular system often misses the target and may not adjust when problems are presented. This game requires an ecletic. Harry.

It's always nice to see a true master who works with an open mind and is willing to learn from others! I'm really glad that you took that little tiercel gos and put him through his paces while learning things from him. I had a feeling that he might teach you something...

Since when have you not wanted to stir the pot!? Or perhaps you just stir it incidentally without wanting to? But it is definitely necessary to learn to "read" the bird and figure out what it needs to excel. Cookie cutters don't work so well; too inflexible.

[Goshawk635]

My recipe has always been more of a stew. Other ingredients are added from a variety of sources over time. I season to my particular taste and enjoy. And the thing about stirring the pot is ... without it, things tend to burn.

Phil Smith

[MrBill]

>My recipe has always been more of a stew. Other ingredients are added from a variety of sources over time. I season to my particular taste and enjoy. And the thing about stirring the pot is ... without it, things tend to burn.

I love you way with words, Phil :-)

Bill Boni

[FredFogg]

There is a cookbook called The Best Recipe, it states at the very beginning that they tried over 30 of the known best recipes to come up with what they thought was The Best Recipe. Unfortuately, for us, that would be a lot of birds to go through to figure out which is the best. As has been said before, you have to take one recipe and then modify it by the actions of the bird. If I have learned anything in falconry, learning to read your bird is the most important thing any falconer can do! Just my humble opinion! :D

[wyodjm]

My recipe has always been more of a stew. Other ingredients are added from a variety of sources over time. I season to my particular taste and enjoy. And the thing about stirring the pot is ... without it, things tend to burn.

Phil Smith

That's good Phil. You never stop learning and adjusting as the need arises. Goshawks can be great teachers. They can also keep you humble. They tend to give you immediate feedback if you're doing something right.........or wrong.

The best goshawks I've seen flown were the ones that did the talking for the falconer.

How have you been?

[Goshawk635]

Dan, I am more blessed than ever. I live in quail country and I am salivating over adding a new accipiter to my hawking team. My Brittany is coming along and I just made a Marathon run to Casper, Wyoming to get a new Jack Russell. Harris hawks are moulting so fast it looks like my kids had a pillow fight.
The moult has started and I finally have time to read the collective wisdom on this site.

Hot stove league of Falconry has officially begun.

Phil Smith

[hcmcelroy]

Phil,

What is the new accipiter?

Harry.

[Goshawk635]

Phil,

What is the new accipiter?

Harry.

Make and model to be determined by what the woods yield this spring. We are blessed with all three accipiters but I am rediscovering nesting habitat since my 10 year absence. I will start with the Goshawk search and inevitably we find Cooper's and sharpies. I will probably not make a choice til I am sure I have one. Frankly, trying the tame hacked coopers is intriguing.

Phil Smith

[hcmcelroy]

Phil,

I would love to hack an imprint too but it would be eaten the first day on this hill. Do you have an area where an accipiter could be hacked?

Harry.

[Richard]

Phil, I would love to hack an imprint too but it would be eaten the first day on this hill. Do you have an area where an accipiter could be hacked? Harry.

I did what I call a "day hack" with some Cooper's in the past. I'd have them coming well to fist and lure and just take them out to a patch of woods, turned them loose and get comfortable. I did it without telemetry long ago, but it's definitely better done with. I'd just let them weather in a tree, learn to handle wind and landings, chase critters as they pleased and call them down to hunt towards the end of the day. This would usually be done in a small patch of woods in an otherwise open locale. Sometimes I'd do it several days running or perhaps just whenever I had a day free to "waste". Even a small amount of free flight is good for a youngster.

Take along a camp chair and a good book. I've made gloves and other equipment while hanging out watching them play.

[Goshawk635]

Harry,

That is the million dollar question. I live adjacent to 25 acres of alfalfa. Behind me is another 20 acres of undeveloped land. Next door is a retired teacher who is beginning the journey of dementia. Her yard is a collection of evergreens and small overgrown bushes. The quail that frequent my feeders live there. Across the street is an elementary
School. Yet I see all sorts of hazards out there ... potential pitfalls. The neighborhood is small horse farms so I will need to do a neighborhood education program.

I am concerned about a Goshawk in the heat of the high desert not so much the coopers. I don't think I would hack a sharpy due to the red-tailed hawk nest a mile off and the kestrel nest across the street.

Hacking makes me nervous frankly so I continue to ponder.

Phil Smith

[AK Rev]

Hacking is such an interesting thing. I read everything I can find on it...yet continue to have questions since I haven't done one yet.

For instance, when McDermott references a guy who successfully hacked multiple prairies from a rooftop in the middle of urban St. Louis...I just would love to hear more. It's even more interesting when he says (at the time of his writings), there had been zero losses so far among several falconers hacking more than a dozen accipiters.

[goshawks00]

No losses here -yet, though several close calls. Once a tiercil ended up in a neighbors chicken coop, but I got a call, instead of a corpse. I had another male playing with a garder snake right in the middle of the road and had a car actually stop and honk his honk at it, which alerted me of the danger. Had a RT come in on a very early (just flying) female gos as she was eating, luckily I was standing very near to her when it happened and her cackling told of the impending danger. Had two different males hit the back door window after seeing me go inside the house. A couple of close calls on sharpies from coops, luckily they were more fly bys than actual sustained attempts. No diseases yet, though mosquitoes have been heavy the last few years. There are enough dangers to test any hawk and it's falconer enough to make you think twice about hacking some times.

[AK Rev]

Thanks for posting Barry. I thought you were still at zero losses. However, it's like you say...I've heard others say that putting a hawk/falcon through a hack will give you gray hairs. Still, it's cool to hear that you have had no losses and yet you have hacked a lot of accipiters. What is it Barry...over 20 now?

[AK Rev]

Since I brought it up, I'm curious if anyone knows more details about the St. Louis falconer who tame hacked multiple prairies from his urban roof top? Surely someone here knows more about that. Of all things to hack in St. Louis...it's just interesting.

[Yeomanfalconer]

Since I brought it up, I'm curious if anyone knows more details about the St. Louis falconer who tame hacked multiple prairies from his urban roof top? Surely someone here knows more about that. Of all things to hack in St. Louis...it's just interesting.
Could it be Henry Kendall ? He bred a number of prairies. Nip and Tuck ?

[hcmcelroy]

Phil and Richard,

I've tame hacked Cooper's long ago living in the Casa Grande area. No telemetry and some close calls.

A few years ago Tom Cade and I hacked several aplomados on a ranch in west Texas. They usually came in late in the day and we shut them in but now and again we had to chase one down with the radio and carry them back. We didn't loose any the two weeks I was there.

Harry.

[Goshawk635]

Harry,

If the spring is productive, I will give the accipiter hack a go. Great input from so many ... I am taking notes.

Phil Smith

[eminart]

I've browsed through this thread. But, I'm wondering, what first book would you guys recommend for someone who is pretty new to falconry, but wants to fly an imprint gos a couple of years down the road? Assuming he knows nothing about imprinting and very little about goshawks?

I want to start learning.

[goshawkr]

I've browsed through this thread. But, I'm wondering, what first book would you guys recommend for someone who is pretty new to falconry, but wants to fly an imprint gos a couple of years down the road? Assuming he knows nothing about imprinting and very little about goshawks?

I want to start learning.

I would recomnd a three book collection if you really want to get under the hood of a goshawk:

Edmund Bert's treatise (either get the modern translation, or use an elizabethan dictionary)
Understanding the Bird of Prey by Nick Fox
The Goshawk by Robert Kenward

The last one is just a natural history anthology of hundreds of published studies on goshawks, but Robert is a falconer who has lived and breathed goshawks both privately and professionally for many years and really understands the beast. There is no "how to hunt a goshawk" info in this book, but you will learn far more about what makes a goshawk tick than anywhere else.

Bert's book is available on google books:
http://books.google.com/books/about/Bert_s_treatise_of_hawks_and_hawking.html?id=T20CA AAAYAAJ

[colelkhunter]

Scott,
To develop a base of knowledge, Understanding birds of prey is a good one. the imprint accipiter books are great. Start with imprint accipiter 2. It is still reasonably priced and available at most book sellers and falconry suppliers. Accipitrine Behavior is also a good read. Then move to something like "A hawk for the bush". Beware accipter books are notoriously few and expensive. For instance the first edition of Imprint accipiter will command a hefty price.

[eminart]

Thanks, Guys, I'll check those out.

A friend actually loaned me Understanding Birds of Prey recently (thanks Joan!) but I haven't had a chance to crack it open yet. Been swamped with duties this past week.

[Indiehawk]

I'm a big fan of Mavro's books. Also Bert's An Approved Treatise of Hawks and Hawking. There's also E.W. Jameson's The Hawking of Japan.

Great idea on a good book on passage Accipiters. However, more specifically on passage goshawks. But by multiple authors who have had multiple birds. A collaborative work. Collectively discussing their specialties such as manning, training, equipment, housing, diet, intermewing, and weight control. Things like that. Also things like seeling and perhaps water-boarding. Hooding also. Hawking ducks, hawking upland birds, hawking rabbits, hawking jacks.

I almost forgot trapping. You can't get a passage goshawk unless you trap it. Trapping equipment, where to trap, when to trap and so on.

"Knowledge is proud that he has learned so much; Wisdom is humble that he knows no more" ~ Cowper

I totally agree with Dan here that we need a book on the passage Gos. Multiple authors what works for them and a dash of creative writing about actual hunts, trapping trips etc.

I searched this entire thread and did not see mention of Ben ohlander's most excellent article on the passage Gos in the last edition of North American falconry and hunting hawks. I liked it a lot. Anyone else read it? They catch some monsters up in Duluth.

[allredone]

I totally agree with Dan here that we need a book on the passage Gos. Multiple authors what works for them and a dash of creative writing about actual hunts, trapping trips etc.

I searched this entire thread and did not see mention of Ben ohlander's most excellent article on the passage Gos in the last edition of North American falconry and hunting hawks. I liked it a lot. Anyone else read it? They catch some monsters up in Duluth.

I had read it. Great chapter for sure. Nice guy to talk with as well. They do get some big birds in Deluth. They also get many more average ones too. I've heard 800's and low 900's. Rarely birds 1000 or more?

[keitht]

For instance, when McDermott references a guy who successfully hacked multiple prairies from a rooftop in the middle of urban St. Louis...I just would love to hear more. It's even more interesting when he says (at the time of his writings), there had been zero losses so far among several falconers hacking more than a dozen accipiters.

The rest of the story:

The falconer that supposedly hacked out prairies was Alan Suliber in St. Louis. He was an old acquaintance of mine with an off and on relationship. Alan loved prairies and did a lot of the paintings in Beebe and Webster's books. Alan was not much of an accomplished falconer and was more of a keeper than a flyer. Mike never really knew Alan but learned about him through me. His claim of hacking prairies is dubious at best. He tried to breed praires for many years but failed. The closest he came was when he went out to Colorado one day and robbed a nest and placed all the eggs under his sitting prairie but none of the eggs hatched. Alan volunteered to watch my breeding project one year while I was at a NAFA meet. That was a disaster. But Alan had some good qualities as well. Alan is now in Wyoming serving a life sentence in Rock Springs in the Penitentiary.

As far as no one ever loosing a bird while hacking is dated. Mike might have made that claim when he first tried it but soon afterwards birds were lost including some birds of individuals who were hacking birds out with Mike.