Blackjack, 2012 Imprint NA tiercel goshawk

[Ally]

I picked up this little guy on Thursday at 16 days old from Lew Souder down in Nevada. First of all, want to mention how AWESOME he is to work with. The pictures and videos ahead of time of the babies was very cool. I had originally been working with Barry over in Wisconsin, but late planning on my part and bad luck on the sex of the babies worked against us. But also, awesome to work with. I've said this before and I'll say it again--I love our falconry community. peacee

Anyway, I will be attempting to follow Steve Layman's philosophy on imprinting. I have a lot of experience with operant conditioning, and am just finishing up my degree in animal behavior. :) So we'll see how it goes.

So far, we've been "loading" the clicker and building that food pairing. He's only fed from me when he's rocked back on his haunches and his feet are limp. I set the food dish down completely in his line of sight, but as soon as I hold a piece up he will sit back and take it from my fingers. I let him take all that he wants to from my fingertips, and leave the rest in the dish with a little bit of water for hydration.

He's getting more mobile every day, and there's very little that bothers him. Lots of socialization and time around other people and animals. I LOVE this little guy, and am so looking forward to everything I get to experience with him! So, meet Blackjack!

Coming home from the airport
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/16dayscominghome.jpg

Big day for a baby hawk--already asleep
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/16dayasleep.jpg

Playing with an old hood
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/17dayskillhood.jpg

He walked/scooted halfway across the living room to come play with the string
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/17daysplaywithstring.jpg

18 days old, at a friend's BBQ taking in all the new sights
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/18daysatbbq.jpg

The only time he got a little nervous was when one of the dogs tried to give him a tongue bath--so he came to hide by me
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/18dayshidingfromscary.jpg

Maybe the dogs aren't so scary afterall
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/18dayswithvita.jpg

A friend's little girl couldn't get enough of Jack:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/18daysbeingpet.jpg

That night, he discovered his own reflection:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/18daysreflection.jpg

[BestBeagler]

Looking good! Going to follow this thread with great intrest like I did with Jeff's thread. I didn't know Barry lived in WI I lived down the road from him and I live in MI :)

[wesleyc6]

Great pics and great looking bird. Congrats!

[Ally]

LOL oops, my fault! I meant MI, I swear I didi :D

[FredFogg]

Nice Ally! Looking forward to this thread and what I can learn of OC. Man, all these eyas's, you all are killing me! frus) :D

[Ally]

19 days -

I've been "loading" the clicker with every feeding since Thursday, so tonight I finally decided to see if he understands what the click means. Since I do plan on hood-training him, I decided to use the hood as part of the behavior I was looking for to test his grasp of the idea.

So far he has been very quiet--he chirps and whistles occasionally to talk, but otherwise doesn't make any noise :)

So I chopped up a sparrow and brought the hood over with me--I feed him wherever he happens to be, whether it's in the nest bowl or wandering around the house. I set it down and he looked at the food and then looked to me (which is exactly what I want him to do). I held the hood up to him near his face and waited for a non-fearful behavior. He whistled at it a little uncertainly, looked at it and looked at me, and then finally stuck his head in to nibble at the beak opening. I marked the behavior and gave him a piece of the sparrow. (At this point he is still sitting on his haunches with limp feet). It took him about 2 repetitions before he defaulted immediately to sticking his head in the hood, and as soon as he heard the click, he looked to me for the food.
The clicker is loaded :) It's amazing that even in something so young that association can be made so quickly. He's such a good boy :D

[BestBeagler]

19 days -

I've been "loading" the clicker with every feeding since Thursday, so tonight I finally decided to see if he understands what the click means. Since I do plan on hood-training him, I decided to use the hood as part of the behavior I was looking for to test his grasp of the idea.

So far he has been very quiet--he chirps and whistles occasionally to talk, but otherwise doesn't make any noise :)

So I chopped up a sparrow and brought the hood over with me--I feed him wherever he happens to be, whether it's in the nest bowl or wandering around the house. I set it down and he looked at the food and then looked to me (which is exactly what I want him to do). I held the hood up to him near his face and waited for a non-fearful behavior. He whistled at it a little uncertainly, looked at it and looked at me, and then finally stuck his head in to nibble at the beak opening. I marked the behavior and gave him a piece of the sparrow. (At this point he is still sitting on his haunches with limp feet). It took him about 2 repetitions before he defaulted immediately to sticking his head in the hood, and as soon as he heard the click, he looked to me for the food.
The clicker is loaded :) It's amazing that even in something so young that association can be made so quickly. He's such a good boy :D

Really loving this detail about the OC clicker training keep it up!

[goshawkr]

Congratulations Ally.

Mine is cutter.

:D

[goshawkr]

A friend's little girl couldn't get enough of Jack:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/18daysbeingpet.jpg



My daughter Heather was about that same age when I brought my old goshawk Angel home at 21 days old. The two were constant companions. My buddy phil dubbed it "the two year old manning technique."

Its amazing the affect a gentle toddler can have on the disposition of an eyass goshawk.

A few years later I used Heather's little brother to raise another calm eyas.

Maybe you should borrow your friend's daughter Ally. :D

[colelkhunter]

So you are suggesting having a child before you raise an imprint gos? Why didn't you mention this before? I feel so unprepared. :D:D

[Kachina]

He's adorable! If you decide you'd like to introduce him to a parrot and cat, bring him on over. :D

Good luck with him.

[goshawkr]

So you are suggesting having a child before you raise an imprint gos? Why didn't you mention this before? I feel so unprepared. :D:D

I just dont have the details listed out well.

Thats one of many reasons why I am not one of the gurus that people are always running to for answers.

There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING like the constant touching that a toddler will give a growing eyas.

My toddlers are all teenagers now, and they dont do nearly as good of a job. Especially since the girls have decided that boys are a lot of fun and have jobs and such.

[goshawks00]

I got to agree with Geoff, little kids are the best babysitters you can have for raising eyas goshawks, I used to rent the neighbors kids when ever i could get them.

As far as entering on parrots and cats, I'd wait at least 3-4 months before doing so.dohh

[colelkhunter]

I am enlisting my local boy scout troop for weekly mauling sessions.

[goshawkr]

I am enlisting my local boy scout troop for weekly mauling sessions.

I'd recomend cub scouts - but supervise them. You want the quite gentle ones, not the rowdy rambunxious ones.

The older boys can do a good job too, but most of them are not as anxious to cuddle and pet. Thats what does the magic.

[Ally]

I'm thinking flagship after school falconry workshop...:-D
Going to take him to the feed store after work today, gotta pick up some dog food and more plastic drop cloth...should be entertaining.

[Kachina]

As far as entering on parrots and cats, I'd wait at least 3-4 months before doing so.dohh

In case anyone else lacks the intelligence to see what's going on, my comment was a JOKE.

Some of y'all take yourselves way too seriously. Try being friendly once in a while. toungeout

[goshawks00]

In case anyone else lacks the intelligence to see what's going on, my comment was a JOKE.

Some of y'all take yourselves way too seriously. Try being friendly once in a while. toungeout

HA!HA! in case you also lack a sense of humor, as you seem to, so was mine. OR... do you real think I was advocating fur and feather at the same time?mooon

[FredFogg]

Yeee Haaaa, the breeding season is over and the molt is in full force, let the games begin! frus) :D

[Ally]

Well I got both jokes. :D And they were funny. So there.
Everybody place nice please!

[Ally]

20 days -

Had to work today, left Jack with some chopped food in his imprint kennel and was able to run home and check on him at lunch. He didn't eat more than a few bites of it on his own, so I brought him out and hand-fed him. He was hungry by this point, so he was making a little noise, but just whistles. If he got too eager about it, I stopped and waited until he was quiet, then marked the "quiet," even if it was only for a second, and gave him a piece.

This is also the first time he's attempted to "chase" down his dish of food, so I followed what Steve talked about during his lecture in Vernal, and turned into the "sibling" by "mantling" over the food dish and guarding it from him. Once he lost interest and sat back on his haunches, I clicked and resumed feeding him until it was gone.

Tonight he came with me to do some shopping--making a new lure so needed some rope, etc. and went to our local feed and farm store. He got SWARMED by the employees and a few customers, got fawned over and petted and messed with. He was nervous when we first walked in, but by 10 minutes into the store he was preening and ready to go to sleep. One person was rubbing his head and if he would have been a cat, I swear he would have been purring. I like him getting his face/head messed with...maybe it will de-sensitize him to the hood later on?

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention--I've also introduced a "no reward" marker (vocal "ah-ah") paired with a negative punishment (withholding of food). For anyone not familiar with OC out there--punishment simply means that the behavior being marked is less likely to continue.

At 20 days he is MUCH stronger on his feet, and I can't believe the feather growth! :eek: There's a good inch or better of wing feathers sticking out. Crazy!

Here are some more pictures from the BBQ on Saturday, taken by a friend. The same little girl wanted to feed Jack, but she took one look at the chopped up pieces of sparrow and decided otherwise. So instead, she got a little lesson in OC and learned how to operate the clicker :) She was a great little helper. Enjoy!

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/clickerfeed18days.jpg

[lewsouder]

Great thread Ally. Decided to sell Grimm and to live vicariously this summer. Please keep the updates coming.

[Ally]

Quick observation from this morning-up to this point his default position has been "sitting" and so marking that correct behavior has been easy. Now that his legs are stronger he's been standing more. When i went to feed him this morning he could NOT figure out why he wasnt getting anything. He nibbled at my hands and turned his head upside down trying to get at the tidbit, and it took him around 2 minutes to finally sit back. The light bulb went off when he earned the click though. Just had to be patient and wait him out.

[FredFogg]

Quick observation from this morning-up to this point his default position has been "sitting" and so marking that correct behavior has been easy. Now that his legs are stronger he's been standing more. When i went to feed him this morning he could NOT figure out why he wasnt getting anything. He nibbled at my hands and turned his head upside down trying to get at the tidbit, and it took him around 2 minutes to finally sit back. The light bulb went off when he earned the click though. Just had to be patient and wait him out.

Ally, trying to learn here so bear that in mind. Why do you want it to sit down before it eats? Are you just doing that now because that is where you started and you are trying to cement the clicker?

[Ally]

Oh whoops, I should definitely explain myself--Jeff Suggs did a great job explaining it in his imprint thread on Apache, so if you want a more detailed/better/different explanation than I might be able to give, you can definitely check there.

One of Steve's observations on goshawks, specifically in parent-chick relationships, is that when a parent is feeding the baby, the baby is always sitting back and has "rubbery" or limp feet while being fed. His thought is to mimick this behavior while hand-feeding, and that by doing this you accomplish 2 things: one, that you have a way to control and keep the bird in the "baby" mindset, and that it also prevents the dreaded face-grabbing. The face grabbing/footing/etc. is demonstrating aggression, and the eyass doesn't show aggression to the parent at this stage in the game, only to its siblings--so by putting the baby in this same frame of mind, it's viewing you as the parent.

As the chicks get older, this changes (young birds chase their parents to get the food, etc.) By conditioning the behavior, you can prolong that baby mindset and keep your "sweet tempered goshawk" longer, and begin conditioning other behaviors as alternative methods to get food rather than him attacking you for it. A few things I remember from Jeff's thread were click/reward for plucking and for chasing and "killing" wads of paper and then, later on, the lure. So you still give the bird an outlet for the growing aggression and hunting instincts, but channel it appropriately for a falconry bird. The tame hack should also help with this A LOT.

I hope I did a good job explaining that...it makes sense in my head but it's hard to put down :P ...does that help?

[FredFogg]

Oh whoops, I should definitely explain myself--Jeff Suggs did a great job explaining it in his imprint thread on Apache, so if you want a more detailed/better/different explanation than I might be able to give, you can definitely check there.

One of Steve's observations on goshawks, specifically in parent-chick relationships, is that when a parent is feeding the baby, the baby is always sitting back and has "rubbery" or limp feet while being fed. His thought is to mimick this behavior while hand-feeding, and that by doing this you accomplish 2 things: one, that you have a way to control and keep the bird in the "baby" mindset, and that it also prevents the dreaded face-grabbing. The face grabbing/footing/etc. is demonstrating aggression, and the eyass doesn't show aggression to the parent at this stage in the game, only to its siblings--so by putting the baby in this same frame of mind, it's viewing you as the parent.

As the chicks get older, this changes (young birds chase their parents to get the food, etc.) By conditioning the behavior, you can prolong that baby mindset and keep your "sweet tempered goshawk" longer, and begin conditioning other behaviors as alternative methods to get food rather than him attacking you for it. A few things I remember from Jeff's thread were click/reward for plucking and for chasing and "killing" wads of paper and then, later on, the lure. So you still give the bird an outlet for the growing aggression and hunting instincts, but channel it appropriately for a falconry bird. The tame hack should also help with this A LOT.

I hope I did a good job explaining that...it makes sense in my head but it's hard to put down :P ...does that help?

Yes, thanks! It just seems like a very slippery slope to me! But I like what I have seen so far because I believe the more we think like the birds, the better we can change our actions to suit what we are doing and want.

[Chris Proctor]

I picked up this little guy on Thursday at 16 days old from Lew Souder down in Nevada.


Just curious why you chose a captive bred Gos over a wild taken bird, (seeing how you live in Montana)?

[Ally]

Chris - combo of lack of time to find a nest and lack of knowledge. I still hope to pull a wild eyass sometime in the future, but I'm going to try to go out with some experienced folks and learn in the meantime so I have a better chance of success.

Update when I get home from work.

[hcmcelroy]

Ally,

Nice descriptions of Blackjack's behavior and with a degree in animal behavior you should be at home. I imprinted a male gos last year and he nibbled on our hands, ran to us to play and had a grand time with the dogs.
I look forward to your adventures and seeing loads of photos...

Thanks, Harry.

[Ally]

22 days --
Blackjack is starting to get a little more vocal and mobile, but I noticed his appetite has almost doubled! So part of that's my fault for not feeding the little bugger enough. He went from only eating about 4 sparrows a day to eating around 8. He got to come to work with me today but had to hang out in the car. We only got up to 65 degrees today so there was no issue with heat. He got to hang out during breaks and lunches and had people coming to say hello and lots of pets and attention. He now has begun automatically defaulting to sitting on his legs to be fed, so I'm going to begin to integrate other behaviors for him to earn some of his meal. Clicking for quiet is going to be one of those, and during the times that I'm home with him I'm going to keep tidbits with me and randomly offer them to him when he's being quiet or doing a behavior I like (like chasing his lure). I'm leaving the lure available for him to see and play with, and in addition to feeding him off of it I'm going to reward for chasing it.


My phone is broken and the camera is in the car, otherwise I'd grab a picture... he's also beginning to display some of what I always thought to be "imprint" actions...he will run over to me for attention, and one of the cats was sitting near him and he kept turning his head upside down to look at her--so cute :) He's also standing more often than sitting now, and exercising his wings. Will try to go grab a picture of him so you can see the feather growth. I can't believe how much he's grown in just a short week!

[mithril]

Hey Ally, just curious as to your opinion on using a clicker vs a marker word with birds. My experience stems from dog training only, but I prefer using a marker word ('yes' is my preference) because it frees my hands up and is essentially one less thing to carry. I'm aware that there has been "research" that has supported the efficacy of a clicker over a marker word, but in my limited amount of training/experience I have had great success with using just a word. I too "load" the word initially and then proceed from there. Anyway, looking forward to your reply. :D

[JRedig]

Hey Ally, just curious as to your opinion on using a clicker vs a marker word with birds. My experience stems from dog training only, but I prefer using a marker word ('yes' is my preference) because it frees my hands up and is essentially one less thing to carry. I'm aware that there has been "research" that has supported the efficacy of a clicker over a marker word, but in my limited amount of training/experience I have had great success with using just a word. I too "load" the word initially and then proceed from there. Anyway, looking forward to your reply. :D

Click with your tongue, hands free always!;)

[mithril]

Click with your tongue, hands free always!;)

I do know of some who use this method. :D Useful for when a clicker isn't allowed in competition.

[Ally]

I am a fan of either one! I totally agree that the hands-free result of a marker word over a clicker is a definite benefit. I like the clicker because of the consistency and distinctiveness of the noise.

Jeff - I can't click loud enough with my tongue! I've tried, I'm awful at it! :P

To keep my hands relatively free, I put the clicker on a wristband so I can click and then drop it. For dogs, you can also hook it to the end of the leash. :)

Blackjack cuddled up on my lap for a while last night, and then ended up climbing up onto my shoulder and then onto a pillow on the arm of the couch--he's starting to look for "higher" places to be. He was so zonked, rather than disturb him when I went to bed I just moved the pillow onto the floor next to his nest bowl and let him sleep. He was still on it when I woke up in the morning :P

[goshawkr]

Hey Ally, just curious as to your opinion on using a clicker vs a marker word with birds. My experience stems from dog training only, but I prefer using a marker word ('yes' is my preference) because it frees my hands up and is essentially one less thing to carry. I'm aware that there has been "research" that has supported the efficacy of a clicker over a marker word, but in my limited amount of training/experience I have had great success with using just a word. I too "load" the word initially and then proceed from there. Anyway, looking forward to your reply. :D

"Clicker" has become a set term that limits thinking. The term Skinner used when he formuatled the method was "Conditioned Reinforcer" which is too scientific to really catch on in lay terms.... "Clicker" was popularized by Pryor when she brought Operant Conditioning to the masses because she found that a common child's toy that makes a sharp click works very well, and now of course she is marketing her own clickers that work even better.

Anyway, my basic point is that you should take a step back from the term clicker. Any signal that can be quickly delivered works.

[goshawkr]

I am a fan of either one! I totally agree that the hands-free result of a marker word over a clicker is a definite benefit. I like the clicker because of the consistency and distinctiveness of the noise.

Jeff - I can't click loud enough with my tongue! I've tried, I'm awful at it! :P

To keep my hands relatively free, I put the clicker on a wristband so I can click and then drop it. For dogs, you can also hook it to the end of the leash. :)

Blackjack cuddled up on my lap for a while last night, and then ended up climbing up onto my shoulder and then onto a pillow on the arm of the couch--he's starting to look for "higher" places to be. He was so zonked, rather than disturb him when I went to bed I just moved the pillow onto the floor next to his nest bowl and let him sleep. He was still on it when I woke up in the morning :P

A pinch light in the teeth is a good hands fee signal. It does get a little tedious after a while though.

[Ally]

Any sort of consistent marker will work. A light, a sound, a word, you could even flash a colored card every time and, with enough pairing, the association would be made.

The only thing I would suggest to anyone creating a CR is to pick one and stick with it--every time you change it you have to "re-load" the CR and create the new association, and you might end up causing confusion for the animal.

[mithril]

Anyway, my basic point is that you should take a step back from the term clicker. Any signal that can be quickly delivered works.

I agree. Some people argue that using a clicker as the marker eliminates the confusion that inflection/tone might cause if using a word instead. Others say that a clicker is simply faster than a word, and to some degree I agree, because even my "yes" can sound a bit drawn out with the "s" at the end. I personally haven't noticed an increase in time it takes to train a dog with a verbal marker vs a clicker.

[FredFogg]

Anyway, my basic point is that you should take a step back from the term clicker. Any signal that can be quickly delivered works.

Hmmm, seems to me like falconers have been doing this for years, I think they called it a whistle. LOL toungeout :D

Personally, I can whistle with my mouth loud enough and that is what I do. I use a cheap Wally World whistle when I want my bird to come to the lure.

[Ally]

Fred -
Don't confuse a recall cue (whistle) with a reward marker (clicker). One is a command (like saying "come!") and the other is marking the fact that the animal came (like "good boy!").

That's what confused me the most when I started learning about OC and I've noticed when teaching new dog training clients that is the most common misconception, that the marker is a recall cue.

Checking on the little guy at lunch...I think he's grown more feathers in the 5 hours since I saw him. Checking out the front yard for the moment before I head back to work, flapping his wings like crazy.

[goshawkr]

I agree. Some people argue that using a clicker as the marker eliminates the confusion that inflection/tone might cause if using a word instead. Others say that a clicker is simply faster than a word, and to some degree I agree, because even my "yes" can sound a bit drawn out with the "s" at the end. I personally haven't noticed an increase in time it takes to train a dog with a verbal marker vs a clicker.

The one thing I forgot to elaborate on is just how fast the CR should be able to be delivered. One second on the outside. A word can work, but usually its to long a delivery.

The shorter the signal, the more likely you can tag a behavior for reward and have the critter understand what you are trying to encourage. A signal that is longer will leave them sorting through a few possibilities for the answer.

[Heatherg]

I think there are a bunch of terms that can be interchanged and mean similar things. When I was learning OC we used the term bridge for the "good boy" and we used whistles or vocal cues or hand signals.....it all seemed to work just fine....tomato toe-ma-toe....We trained a variety of birds from hand reared andean condors to storks and parrots and all seemed to learn the cues and rewards and bridges.
I have never liked the clicker...but thats my personal preference! Do what works for you :)

[goshawkr]

The only thing I would suggest to anyone creating a CR is to pick one and stick with it--every time you change it you have to "re-load" the CR and create the new association, and you might end up causing confusion for the animal.

I find its best, at least with falconry, to use three. One soft audio one that can be delivered during training sessions while the kido's are asleep, one loud audio one that can be delievered from several hundered yards (a quick single blast on a pea whistle), and a strictly visual one - flash of a pinch light.

You are correct it takes time to "re-load" the CR (meaning that it takes a bit of time for the critter to get the joke that the CR means it has done something right and is getting a treat), but once they have the overall concept of what a CR in general down, its a very short walk to understand that the new CR is synonomous.

[goshawkr]

Checking on the little guy at lunch...I think he's grown more feathers in the 5 hours since I saw him. Checking out the front yard for the moment before I head back to work, flapping his wings like crazy.

Photos??????

[FredFogg]

Fred -
Don't confuse a recall cue (whistle) with a reward marker (clicker). One is a command (like saying "come!") and the other is marking the fact that the animal came (like "good boy!").

That's what confused me the most when I started learning about OC and I've noticed when teaching new dog training clients that is the most common misconception, that the marker is a recall cue.

Checking on the little guy at lunch...I think he's grown more feathers in the 5 hours since I saw him. Checking out the front yard for the moment before I head back to work, flapping his wings like crazy.

Geoff, my point was one could use a whistle to be the reward marker. Basically, a recall cue is a reward marker but the reward marker is used for other things and it can be a whistle instead of a clicker.

[Dirthawking]

Do you have to worry about feeding an eyas gos so much sparrow?

[Ally]

Mario - I didn't think so, but now you've got me questioning--what are the potential risks? I've always been told sparrow is a richer, better food than quail even.

Anyway--here are some more pictures guys. I'm photo-happy. :) A falconry friend who works at the senior center invited us to come visit for some socialization time today. Should be fun!

It was such a nice day yesterday, we spent a good chunk of it outside
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/23daysoutside2.jpg

23 days old, standing more and more
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/inbowloutside23days.jpg

Something above caught his attention
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/23dayslookingup.jpg

You can kinda see the feather growth in this picture...I tried to get one of him stretching his wings (next pic) but it's not very good. I fail as a photographer :)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/23daysfeathergrowth.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/stretchwings23days.jpg

Exploring the jungle
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/23daysexploring.jpg

Blackjack and the dog are good friends...maybe not so much when Jack's nibbling on his face, but he tolerates it.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/BJandKodi.jpg

[Dirthawking]

I have heard and seen where birds fed a high diet of sparrow can get frounce. Just wondered if that was a concern with accips and eyas's.

[BestBeagler]

I have heard and seen where birds fed a high diet of sparrow can get frounce. Just wondered if that was a concern with accips and eyas's.

I was told to freeze any fresh meat if possible before feeding it to the eyas. I have heard sparrow seem to lose some of their nutritional value after being frozen or atleast the birds burn through it quicker but thats with sharpies and merlins. With an eyas gos I wouldn't worry about that and be more concerned about the parasites and frounce so I would freeze them first. Falconry is all about taking as many precautions as you can the longer your in this game the more you learn and take more precautions.

[Ally]

I have heard that about feeding pigeons, but didn't know the risk was high with sparrow or starling. The sparrows are all frozen, and he is supplemented with DOC and quail as well.

Went to pick up my friend's tiercel peregrine eyass yesterday, and needed to do some fence pricing--so Jack got to go to Home Depot and was mobbed by kids, adults and employees alike. He didn't make a sound the entire time, never showed any fear or nervousness.

This morning he wanted oh so badly to play with my female cat, but she was too preoccupied chasing a twistie tie around the kitchen, and he was trying to catch up but just isn't quite coordinated enough. He's been spending most of the morning following someone around. It's supposed to be a beautiful day so we'll be spending a good portion of it outside.

[FredFogg]

Went to pick up my friend's tiercel peregrine eyass yesterday, and needed to do some fence pricing--so Jack got to go to Home Depot and was mobbed by kids, adults and employees alike. He didn't make a sound the entire time, never showed any fear or nervousness.

Ally, most raptors don't do well with Home Depot fencing, they do much better with Lowe's! :D

Disclaimer: My working at Lowe's and having Lowe's stock has nothing to do with this! LOL toungeout :D

[Dirthawking]

Ally, most raptors don't do well with Home Depot fencing, they do much better with Lowe's! :D

Disclaimer: My working at Lowe's and having Lowe's stock has nothing to do with this! LOL toungeout :D


You would think with a disclaimer like that you could talk them into carrying good astroturf again!!

[lewsouder]

Hey Fred...didn't know if any other falconers worked for Lowe's. I created a forum for Lowe's falconers when connections first became available but didn't get any response. Nice to feel not so alone:-)

[Ally]

Ha ha, well I will have to check Lowe's next time! It's right across the street. :P

We picked up my buddy's imprint peregrine from the airport on Friday, like I was saying, and the two babies are only 4 days apart (peregrine is older) but the differences in development surprised me. The peregrine was VERY steady on his feet, and tried to foot the crap out of me when I went to touch him.

Blackjack, on the other hand, still isn't steady on or experimenting as much with his feet. I gave him just an opened-up sparrow this morning to see what he'd do with it, and he picked at it with his beak for a minute, then looked at me like, "Mom, help?"

So I sat down with him and cut little pieces off the sparrow and fed him that way. Now he's wandering around the house.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/BJandperegrin2.jpg

[FredFogg]

Hey Fred...didn't know if any other falconers worked for Lowe's. I created a forum for Lowe's falconers when connections first became available but didn't get any response. Nice to feel not so alone:-)

I work at the Data Center in Winston-Salem and to tell you the truth, haven't even looked at Connections! LOL I am at work now and sit here in front of a computer from 7 p.m. until 7 a.m., too busy on NAFEX to look at Connections! :eek: :D

[Ally]

Happy Father's Day (belated) to all of your dads out there :D

Spent the evening with my parents and brought Jack along for the ride. Lots of attention, pets, and visual stimulation. Neighbor kids, plus mom, plus grandparents came over to meet Jack, and the little girl was running around and riding her bike in circles around his nest bowl. Her older brother had a skateboard. Jack didn't bat an eyelash at the movement, bright colors (flourescent pink bike :P) or at all the attention. The kids petted him everywhere and my mom had a camera in his face the whole time. He finally got tired and went to sleep by his nest bowl.

He chased a leaf around the yard and even pounced on it and started footing it--the first real sign of using his feet that I've seen. I'm going to start watching for and marking the behavior when I see it, and introduce chasing and catching the lure and other toys. Thus far he's had access to the lure to play with if he wanted it, but we haven't focused on associating it with food yet. That's going to be our next step this week. Still occasionally bringing the hood out and marking for reaching into the hood, but not pushing it until he gets a bit older.

As far as noise level goes, he chirps occasionally when he's bored, but the only real noise he makes is some whistles when he's being fed. Last night right before bed he let out one really loud "kakakakakak," but the room was dark and I didn't see anything around, so I don't know what alarmed him. confusedd Didn't stand up or move--maybe he was having a bad dream? :P

[Ally]

Eureka, we had a breakthrough today. Tied half a sparrow to his lure and he tried to pull at it with his beak for a few tries before he finally put a foot on it and began to tear it up. He's been footing the towel in his nest bowl and all kinds of other small things today. He's also testing his wings more and more.

I clicked to mark movement towards the lure, and marked the act of putting his feet on the food. He got snagged up by the cartiledge in the chest cavity, so I reached in and took that piece from the lure and broke it up into smaller pieces and offered it to him. He didn't care a bit.

Back to the parents house tonight for a good friend of the family in town. More dogs, more people, more pets and attention.

[spygirl]

Ally, I just wanted to say that I am thoroughly enjoying your thread and am very interested to see how the clicker training turns out. It may be a couple of years before I can jump back into falconry, so I'm living vicariously through NAFEX!

[Ally]

I'm glad you're enjoying!
As an homage to Jeff Foxworthy, I experienced this about a week ago with a wrong snip of the shears...

"If there are sparrow brains splattered all over your sink...you might be a falconer." :-D

[Ally]

28 days (6/19/2012) -

Jack is starting to do a couple of things: he is running and hopping and flapping his wings like crazy. He made a huge leap to try to get up on a recliner in the living room and latched on with his feet about a foot up, whistling in frustration and then had to let go and get back to the floor. I put him up on the couch and he settled down on a blanket with me and fell asleep.

The other thing he's starting to do is attack and foot things. The dog's and cats' tails are ESPECIALLY interesting (not so much for their respective owners.) He will run/attack dog bones on the ground and leaves outside. When I've got food available, I'm marking the chasing behavior and giving him food for it.

He's definitely got the holding food with his feet thing down. I'm still offering him tidbits from my fingers when he demonstrates the correct attitude/body language of baby-to-parent, but the main part of his meal is being fed on the lure. I'll sit with him while I'm feeding him from my fingers and then toss the lure out (very short distances, maximum of about 3 feet at this point) and click when he starts moving towards the lure. The first time I did that he stopped and looked at me, expecting food, and I didn't have any left (D'OH! dohh) so I had to tear a piece off the lure and give it to him. The next time I did it I waited until he was almost to the lure and was locked onto the food on it, then clicked, still capturing the "pursuit" of the lure, but the reward was right there.

Since he's running around so much, I am going to move him outside to the weathering during the day, weather permitting. I'm going to leave his kennel/nest bowl out with him for shelter and comfort, but he's going to start exploring the great wide world. Once he demonstrates he can get onto a low perch by himself I'll start integrating perches out for him, and then the "walkabout" tame hack will begin. :D

Can you spot the goshawk?? Jack curled up in the blanket.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/29daysspotthegos.jpg

[Ally]

29 days -

Blackjack spent the last half of my workday out in the weathering, with his crate available for shade/shelter/rest--it was about 70 degrees. I brought him back inside when I got home and pulled the RT out of the mew to do some spring cleaning. When I came back inside he was in his bathpan and I watched him dunk his entire head underwater. :P

He is also seriously starting to branch. He's trying to hop/climb on everything--my dog was laying by the couch, and Jack ran over to him, thought about it for a second and then hopped up on his back. The dog stood up, surprised, and his back was about level with the cushions on the couch. Just like he had planned it, Blackjack hopped off and then proceeded to climb up onto the arm of the chair.

Before he did that, I was trying to give him his afternoon meal but he refused to sit still and be calm about it. He was hungry--he kept trying to get to the plate of food but wasn't in the right mindset. He finally wandered off when he wasn't just getting his free lunch, so I'm just letting him play. Once he calms down I will feed him again--and this will be an entire meal in the right mindset from my fingertips. We need a refresher in manners today.

EDIT:: Haha! Victory is mine...just as I finished typing that he settled down and laid down on the beanbag he managed to get up on...I captured the behavior with a click and had the food dish ready. Fed him his entire meal to a now-calm young goshawk. He's about to crash out on the beanbag. Apparently running around the house takes a lot out of you :D

In his bathpan:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/DSCF3276.jpg


And on the beanbag
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Facebook/Mobile%20Uploads/169361_3773458587902_1771888774_o.jpg
Yay, Chance (my RT's) tail is going to be barred! (It's my favorite "style" of adult tails...:P crazyy)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/Chancetail620.jpg

[JRedig]

Thanks for keeping this up Ally, having fun reading it! That goes for all the baby threads really, love baby raptors!!!

[frootdog]

I was told to freeze any fresh meat if possible before feeding it to the eyas.

The organism that causes frounce survives freezing at temps well below that of our freezers.

[goshawkr]

The organism that causes frounce survives freezing at temps well below that of our freezers.

I know your a vet Krys - but the info I had from my falconer/vet who has boned up on the research on frounce was that it is possible to culture live frounce from animals that have been frozen for as long as 6 months. But that dosnt mean those organisms can cause disease. I was informed that 2 weeks in the freezer is enough to prevent a viable infection, based on experimental research.

When I feed pigeon, I go for a 6 month dip in the freezer first though. Just to be safer.

[Ally]

Good info guys, i didn't know that.

Blackjack has been branching around the house and out in the yard...he got himself up on a box and then couldn't figure out how to get down. He's spent most of the morning/afternoon wandering around the yard and attacking leaves and weeds.

When I went to feed him this morning he was in the kitchen standing on a shoe...I sat down in the living room and put the plate of food in front of me, and he came running. I thought I was going to have to guard the plate (sibling) until he calmed down, but he skidded to a halt right in front of the food dish and sat back on his elbows and stared at me. It's the neatest thing :)

He whistles a little bit when he's getting fed, but otherwise is very quiet. I know I haven't gotten to the hard part yet, but I love this so far. I'm having such a great time.

[BestBeagler]

The organism that causes frounce survives freezing at temps well below that of our freezers.

Yes, but freezing kills other things as well. But it's good to get that info out there.

[hcmcelroy]

Isaac,

Stormy Huddelson DVM of Tucson researched frounce some years ago and found that the freezer did not kill the organism and that it was found all over the body of the pigeon. Not limited to the digesive track. I've fed frozen pigeon for decades and suffer an infected hawk now and again but one shot of med and its stopped and with a few days it is gone.

Harry.

[BestBeagler]

Isaac,

Stormy Huddelson DVM of Tucson researched frounce some years ago and found that the freezer did not kill the organism and that it was found all over the body of the pigeon. Not limited to the digesive track. I've fed frozen pigeon for decades and suffer an infected hawk now and again but one shot of med and its stopped and with a few days it is gone.

Harry.

I did not know it was found all over the body. Interesting stuff!

[Ally]

Put up a second mew/flight pen yesterday with the help of a falconer friend of mine, who has a tiercel peregrine that's 4 days older than Blackjack. While we were working they were both out in the yard running around and exploring...they were completely indifferent to each other. They sat on the back step together and were actually sleeping right next to each other for a while.

If only they would be friends for life...put the peregrine up to hold the ducks tight to the water, sneak up with the gos on the fist and flush...now wouldn't THAT be fun?

Not much new to report except that Jack is more and more mobile every day...he's climbing on everything he can climb on and getting up as high as he can. The feather growth is continuing to go very quickly...

Blackjack @ 32 days old, and Jager, tiercel peregrine @ 36 days old
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/BJandJager32days.jpg

[hcmcelroy]

Ally,

Speaking of flying an accipiter with a falcon. During the 80's I flew a passage female aplomado with Oscar Beingolea's imprinted female bicolored hawk along the coast south of Lima, Peru. It was marshy terrain. They did not crab but the aplo was dominant and quickly took any bird caught by the bicolored. The accipiter stepped off her catch as the falcon approached.
During the 60's two of my friends flew female Cooper's together and again one was dominant and super fast. She took any bird caught. These two did not crab.
During the 70's I raised two female Cooper's together and they began to crab in the mew even before hard penned. We flew them together and it was war!!! The faster dominant hawk was a real problem and did not settle down with the other in the field.
I don't believe I'll try hawking two N. American accipiters together any time soon.
But have you read about the African accipiter that hunts with some animal...

Harry.

[Ally]

34 days old -

We have transitioned from mostly being hand fed and only feeding sometimes on the lure to getting a few tidbits from my hands, still in calm, "baby" mindset, to eating most of his meals on the lure. I've also started leaving half a quail on the lure instead of chopped meat, and he does a pretty good job at holding it with his feet and tearing it up.

He's finally figured out how to get up on the perches, and today he laddered from the laundry basket, to the ring perch, up to the top of the dryer, where he is currently asleep on a bag of dental stix for the dog. Won't be long now :D

@ 32 days, playing with one of my kittens -
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/BJ32days1.jpg

@ 34 days, up on the ring perch by himself for the first time:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/BJ34days1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/BJ34days3.jpg

[goshawkr]

Ally,

Speaking of flying an accipiter with a falcon. During the 80's I flew a passage female aplomado with Oscar Beingolea's imprinted female bicolored hawk along the coast south of Lima, Peru. It was marshy terrain. They did not crab but the aplo was dominant and quickly took any bird caught by the bicolored. The accipiter stepped off her catch as the falcon approached.
During the 60's two of my friends flew female Cooper's together and again one was dominant and super fast. She took any bird caught. These two did not crab.
During the 70's I raised two female Cooper's together and they began to crab in the mew even before hard penned. We flew them together and it was war!!! The faster dominant hawk was a real problem and did not settle down with the other in the field.
I don't believe I'll try hawking two N. American accipiters together any time soon.
But have you read about the African accipiter that hunts with some animal...

Harry.

Steve Layman has occaisionally flown goshawks in cast, but it takes some careful doing.

I used to be in touch with a guy who was big time into racing pigeons. He loved falconry, but never took it up. He was really REALLy savvy with raptors.

One winter he had a male and a female coopers that cooperatively hunted his flock of pigeons. The female would flush to the male, the male would kill and let the female eat first. He saw this happen several times that year.

Steve Layman's son Seth was doing field research in Wyoming on goshawks and saw many occaisions of cooperation and sharing of kills and such.

There are also several interesting bits of friendly relations mentioned by field researchers that Robert Kenward coallated in his field study anthology on goshawks (titled "The goshawk")

Almost makes one think that these accipiters are not anti-social creatures after all.

[goshawkr]

Ally,

Now the fun really begins!:eek:

[hcmcelroy]

Geoff,

Kenward has written THE book on goshawks. It is a whole study and he is falconry friendly.

I was in the field with a friend doing research on the Cooper's when we spotted two females hunting together. He remarked, "Don't use my name but some of these hawks are social."

Harry.

[allredone]

Have you weighed your new buddy yet Ally?

[PeteJ]

I was told to freeze any fresh meat if possible before feeding it to the eyas. I have heard sparrow seem to lose some of their nutritional value after being frozen or atleast the birds burn through it quicker but thats with sharpies and merlins. With an eyas gos I wouldn't worry about that and be more concerned about the parasites and frounce so I would freeze them first. Falconry is all about taking as many precautions as you can the longer your in this game the more you learn and take more precautions.
Just as an fyi for you. Freezing won't really protect you from Frounce or parasites. Most 'critters' have evolved to survive the freezing process by various methods such as being in the form of cysts which are very tough and virtually immune to most environmental conditions.
I worry very little about Frounce as your bird is likely going to get exposed to it sometime along the way via the quarries they take. I just wait for it to show up and treat accordingly. There are a few that are more serious to worry about such as avian herpes, avian malaria, those will kill your bird quick. But the value of the food quality of fresh sparrows cannot be underestimated, particularly on a growing eyas, and the smaller the raptor the more important it is to have the highest quality nutrition you can get into them while they are growing.

[BestBeagler]

Just as an fyi for you. Freezing won't really protect you from Frounce or parasites. Most 'critters' have evolved to survive the freezing process by various methods such as being in the form of cysts which are very tough and virtually immune to most environmental conditions.
I worry very little about Frounce as your bird is likely going to get exposed to it sometime along the way via the quarries they take. I just wait for it to show up and treat accordingly. There are a few that are more serious to worry about such as avian herpes, avian malaria, those will kill your bird quick. But the value of the food quality of fresh sparrows cannot be underestimated, particularly on a growing eyas, and the smaller the raptor the more important it is to have the highest quality nutrition you can get into them while they are growing.

You speak the truth Pete.

[goshawkr]

Kenward has written THE book on goshawks. It is a whole study and he is falconry friendly.

Harry,

That is quite the book, isnt it?

In the forward Kenward discuss how it was his love of goshawks as a falconer that led him into research on them.

He seems to be a great researcher - using his falconry to help him study. Very similar to what Ken Franklin has done on his work on stooping peregrines.

[Ally]

Sorry for the delay guys, been a little busy--just added the final member of my hunting team for this fall--my new english setter from Heather G. :) Right around 18 months old.

My scale went a little wonky on me :eek: so I think I'm going to have to get a new one...but from the little I could get it to work, Jack was right around 740g @ 37 days old. He's been exploring like mad, and when he comes running to the lure he's starting to catch a little air :)

He's funny--he'll work on a chick or a quail on the lure and if he has trouble with it, occasionally I'll step in and pull off a couple pieces or help him break it open and he sits back--sometimes will even rock back on his haunches and wait for me--and let me help him out. I hope this will translate over to kills. He gets clicks for chasing the lure and for calm behavior while eating.

He will stand on the glove ok, but if I pick him up too fast I get a couple of anxious whistles from him. Got anklets on him a few days ago...first attempt was in his nest bowl and he wouldn't stand still for anything, but as soon as I put him up on a perch at about chest height they went on without a hitch. If I were to do it again I would have put his anklets on him earlier, before he was quite as mobile.

Now, for the part you all care about :)

@ 36 days--he's adopted this corner shelf as a favorite roost in the house.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/BJ36days.jpg

@ 38 days old -- starting to look like a goshawk!!!
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/BJ38days1.jpg

Meet the new setter:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/Bo1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/Bo62912.jpg


You can tell my husky is SO thrilled about the big, wiggly puppy
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/Kodifirstnight.jpg

[BestBeagler]

@ 38 days old -- starting to look like a goshawk!!!




Looking good Ally. He looks very similar to my coops last year in that photograph :)
The dog's beautiful are they usually that thin? She looks great.

[falcon56]

If any of my setters ever got that thin, I'd arrest myself for neglect!

[Ally]

No, they're not usually that thin. I just got him on Tuesday, I want to put about ten pounds on him. Ray, if you can't do anything besides pick out negatives on my threads, I'm going to ask you to stay off of them.

[mithril]

Ally, I've fed "satin balls" (http://www.holisticdog.org/Nutrition/Satinballs/satinballs.html) to foster dogs that needed to gain weight with great success. Recipes vary slightly and some ingredients can usually be omitted. A google search will pull up a lot more links and info.

Edited to add that I think that is one good looking setter! I want a Heather setter. :D I happen to have a penchant for red and white dogs and have two Irish Red and White Setters in addition to a Brittany. Here's one of the IRWS. :)
http://iheartzombies.com/snowday/pounce2.jpg

[falcon56]

No, they're not usually that thin. I just got him on Tuesday, I want to put about ten pounds on him. Ray, if you can't do anything besides pick out negatives on my threads, I'm going to ask you to stay off of them.

Don't get your bloomers in such a bunch, the dog is obviously way too thin & I understand you just got him/her. There are easy ways to keep posts from being "picked" at.

[sevristh]

Don't get your bloomers in such a bunch, the dog is obviously way too thin & I understand you just got him/her. There are easy ways to keep posts from being "picked" at.

There are also much more constructive ways to express concern without knowing the facts... Just saying. ;)

[Ally]

I understand that he is underweight, and I welcome constructive criticism and feedback/suggestions in all of my endeavors because hey, I'm still learning and always will be.

HOWEVER: that was just an extremely uncalled-for, flat-out negative comment, and it was not the first I have received from you on a thread, Ray. Moreover, your response to my request was just as negative and emotionally reactive.

I am happy to report that Blackjack and Bo (the setter) have been introduced and are getting along well with each other, he has stopped trying to eat my cats, and is settling down well. He has also already put on a little bit of weight.

Ashley, thank you so much for that link, and that's a beautiful dog.

Jack is progressing very well, he knows his lure and is still more than willing to step back and let me help him with his meals or eat it himself. Going to start playing some OC games with him, pulling ideas from other threads I've read here and building on some of my own.

[frootdog]

Jack is progressing very well,

I think you should call him BJ for short. peacee

[Ally]

I think you should call him BJ for short. peacee

Haha, I do :P

[frootdog]

Haha, I do :P

Awesome! I named my rescue pointer Boner and now one of my yellow-napes says his name. :D

[falcon56]

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you, nobody wins there, so this will be my final comment. If you look at my first post, there was no reference to you, it was a general comment on the condition of the dog. In retrospect, maybe it would have been more appropriate on your part to put the ten pounds on the dog before you posted a picture, saving the person you aquired the dog from any embarrassment, not you. As far as other negative comments to you, I guess you'll have to refresh my memory. Too often, members post on this forum before they think, and then get mad and take it as a personal affront when someone responds negatively. This is a public forum, and be prepared to take some heat now and then, or don't post. I am one of a VERY few members that has the stones to call a spade a spade here, I won't apologize for that nor mollycoddle anyone. One of the best pieces of advice I was given by my mentors over 40 years ago, was that you will learn a lot more in this sport, if you keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth closed.

[Heatherg]

Hey guys......I had that dog for its entire life....until giving to ally.....he is thin but not from neglect....he is an active dog!!!!!! My only other option was to lock him up for a majority of the day and I can't/ won't do that!!!! I can tell you that he will put on weight as he matures and settles into his body. He has plenty of energy and drive and eats like a horse....he's been wormed and vaccinated. He is just at a gangly stage and a VERY ACTIVE dog.....I've seen many setters and pointers go through this stage!!!!
Ray or anyone for that matter ......if you have comments ....please address me personally in a PM and I would be glad to discuss this with you! But please leave ally out of it and her thread as well!

[BestBeagler]

One of the best pieces of advice I was given by my mentors over 40 years ago, was that you will learn a lot more in this sport, if you keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth closed.

Ray, this was one of the hardest pieces of advice for me to accept when I first started getting into falconry, and it still is difficult for me as I like to talk, but it is absolutely true. Even if you don't agree with everything the other person says you can still glean a lot of information and get a different perspective. I have high respect for the silent types where you can see the wheels turning in their brains and when they do speak, it is meaningful.

[Lowachi]

..... One of the best pieces of advice I was given by my mentors over 40 years ago, was that you will learn a lot more in this sport, if you keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth closed.

One wasn't Jack Oar was it? I remember that comment, tho it was a tad more "colorful" as I recall.
Doesn't pay to be too thin-skinned when you can't "hear" the inflection intended. personnally, did not take it as a slam to Ally, but....

[Ally]

Heather--I'm sorry, I probably should have waited to put up any pictures, but you are correct. He is extremely active and has plenty of energy and drive. He's been put on a high-calorie diet and is being fed twice a day, and he still hoovers up anything in sight. There's nothing wrong with him except for his energy level. He's a wonderful dog, has a fantastic nose and a great personality, and I couldn't be luckier to have him :) Thank you.

This morning was insanity...BJ was chasing the setter, who went out the cat door, where the gos instantly followed, and ended up with both dogs on the deck, the gos on a lawn chair and one of the cats lounging underneath it. He ran/hopped about 20 feet to the lure, and I stepped him off of the lure after he was done to a quail wing on the glove. All the sparrows and robins chirping and screaming at him distracted him for a bit, but even the lawnmowers and the train going by didn't phase him.

Standing out on the chair in some light rain...
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/BJ40dayschair2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/BJ40dayschair1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/BJ40dayslure.jpg

[allredone]

Don't get your bloomers in such a bunch, the dog is obviously way too thin & I understand you just got him/her.

Thank you Master of the obvious!!!

[/QUOTE]There are easy ways to keep posts from being "picked" at.[/QUOTE]

That's right Ray... Just do everything correctly according to you? :p


One of the best pieces of advice I was given by my mentors over 40 years ago, was that you will learn a lot more in this sport, if you keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth closed.

You seem unable to take your own advice on that last point. I dont know you or Ally Ray, but If my dog was thin and you saw it for the first time and had the poor judgement to use the word neglect in my presence I'd tell you exactly which hill to go hide behind.

Nothing wrong with enquiring after the animal's well being out of genuine concern. However it's not real polite to call someone out for neglect when you don't have all the relevant information.

Ally is pursuing something very interesting with her falconry. I wish her sucsess and am looking forward to reading more about her adventures with this bird and dog team.

[Ally]

41 days --

Ran into the first signs of more "adult" behavior today when I went to call Jack to the lure for his breakfast. I've only recently cut down to twice a day feedings in preparation for the tame hack soon to begin.

I took him out back and put him on a perch on the back step and called him to the lure about 30 feet, and he managed to be airborne about half of the way there.

When he first reached the lure he started to mantle. I was right there so I knelt down and started brushing his wings back until he settled down. I wasn't invasive enough to upset him, but I also prevented him from self-rewarding the behavior by beginning to eat. I waited until he was slicked down with his wings back before clicking, and offered him an immediate reward. I gave him a few more tidbits from my fingers before letting him eat his meal on the lure, which he proceeded to do without any further issues.

From what I've read on other threads here and in my studies in preparation for this imprint, my management and reading of the bird's behavior is going to begin to be challenged more and more from here on out. So far, so good? :D

[goshawkr]

From what I've read on other threads here and in my studies in preparation for this imprint, my management and reading of the bird's behavior is going to begin to be challenged more and more from here on out. So far, so good? :D

That is dramatically understated.

Here is where where the rubber hits the road. The small mistakes you make in the near future will explode into big problems further down the road, so be careful that whatever small mistakes you make are not repeated.

I say this not to scare you - but to make you suitably paranoid to keep the number of mistakes minimal. We all make at least a few of them of course.

[BestBeagler]

I say this not to scare you - but to make you suitably paranoid to keep the number of mistakes minimal. We all make at least a few of them of course.

This is the part of imprinting that wears me out. I am always in a constant state of paranoia. I enjoy hacking as a lot of things get worked out at hack and things seem easier especially in the weight management department, they take care of themselves. This is has been my experience with two hacked accipiters.

[rocgwp]

That is dramatically understated.

Here is where where the rubber hits the road. The small mistakes you make in the near future will explode into big problems further down the road, so be careful that whatever small mistakes you make are not repeated.

I say this not to scare you - but to make you suitably paranoid to keep the number of mistakes minimal. We all make at least a few of them of course.

Well said! As Steve Layman told me, one 'papercut' is no big deal, but too many and you can bleed to death. 'Papercuts' add up quickly and end with a goshawk on your face (but that too is fixable). Avoid the papercuts!

You've done great so far! I'm loving this thread!

[Richard]

Hey Fred...didn't know if any other falconers worked for Lowe's. I created a forum for Lowe's falconers when connections first became available but didn't get any response. Nice to feel not so alone:-)

Chuck Butler works for Lowe's in Pueblo, Colorado.

[FredFogg]

Chuck Butler works for Lowe's in Pueblo, Colorado.

I think all Lowe's falconers living in goshawk territories should help other Lowe's falconers get a passage goshawk this fall! LOL :D

[Ally]

LMAO. Nothing like instilling a bit of fear to really get the paranoia worked up.

Well, Jack just had his first real flight tonight :) AND, I caught it on video! It's not much, but it's the first real flying he's ever done :) From the dog house to the top of the weathering. :D Will post the vid when I figure out how to do it.

He had JUST finished his dinner on the lure and was running around the yard footing everything that wasn't the grass, and up he jumped to the top of the dog house, and a few minutes later, up he went again O.O. Scared the crap outta me because he had just eaten! Thankfully he stepped onto the glove when I reached up for him and I put him back in his weathering. He will get a longer time out tomorrow with some short, non-removable jesses and a tranny.

He mauled the lure for his dinner and started to mantle again...gah. Same procedure as this morning, preventing the self-reward until he settled down and clicking/feeding tidbits for calm, slicked down behavior intermittent with his dinner.

I'm going to start splitting his training sessions--one will be a large meal fully on the lure, when he is called down from his hack. The other will be used as tidbits for OC games--hooding, tidbit hunting, and parent/eyass relationship work for now, and as he gets stronger will be working in restrained pursuits for exercise. I'll try to get pics and/or videos of that as well :)

I think by making the switch to almost everything on the lure I lost a little bit of that relationship...I notice it in little things, like his posture when I approach and the beginnings of mantling on the lure...and as things are going to go into overdrive I really want to try to maintain it. In hindsight, this is what I should have been doing all along instead of switching almost exclusively to the lure. So here we go :)

[wingnut]

I've really enjoyed reading your thread Ally. I admire the time and effort you are putting into OC training. And also the time you take to post pics and dialogue. It really seems like a lot of work and if you'll humor me for a moment, perhaps a lot of work that really does not change the finished product. By comparison, and this is only based rearing two other imprint goshawks and the one I am currently rearing of which the final product is yet to be assesed. My first gos I raised before anyone even knew what OC was or who McDermit was and she did all those things that we strive for in a quiet, well mannered imprint. I had a stupid attack and traded her for a peregrine when she was 7 and like ten years later the guy called me and when she was killed and wanted me to start him another one. The last male I had I raised the same way. In the house until the down started flying and then in the mew and my shop and lots of baggies prior to penning. He was a quiet, solid, killing machine. No bad habits. I'm doing the same thing with my current male. He's about 50 days old, flying him free and killing baggies. No weight control yet. He spends half the day in the mew, half the day in my shop mostly by himself, and the night in the mew. It's really pretty easy. I'm sure your bird will turn out awesome and I hope mine will too.

[Ally]

Hey Doug,
I really appreciate the thoughtful comments :)
I definitely don't think there is only one right way to raise an imprint--I'm sure there are some great McDermott imprints out there, and some great Layman imprints, AND some other methods, like yours, that are individuals' own recipes.

The reason I chose this method is because I don't have any experience raising an imprint, and I don't have a lot of other birds under my belt, so this method is one that is structured in a way that makes a lot of sense to me with my behaviorism background. It gives me a tool to communicate with my little guy in a way that makes sense to both me and him--and really, I think that's the key. Use whatever method makes the most sense to you and that you understand. I don't think this method would work with someone that doesn't have a solid foundation with operant conditioning, just like McDermott's method probably wouldn't work with someone that couldn't take their bird EVERYWHERE with them.

My advice (which is only based on my own experience, so take it with a grain of salt) to anyone that is thinking about doing an imprint, is to look at all the methods out there and look at their own lifestyle and see which one "fits." I was very apprehensive to try an imprint until I learned about Steve's methods...they clicked for me. I felt like it was something I could do, and hopefully do successfully. I could be wrong...this could all go to hell in a handbasket...but I"m gonna give it my best shot, and take everyone who's reading along for the ride :D

[wingnut]

I'll probably never meet you Ally, but I'm pretty sure I'd like you. I try to approach everything I do with "have a plan and stick to the plan". You seem to have the same mindset.

[allredone]

My advice (which is only based on my own experience, so take it with a grain of salt) to anyone that is thinking about doing an imprint, is to look at all the methods out there and look at their own lifestyle and see which one "fits." I was very apprehensive to try an imprint until I learned about Steve's methods...they clicked for me. I felt like it was something I could do, and hopefully do successfully. I could be wrong...this could all go to hell in a handbasket...but I"m gonna give it my best shot, and take everyone who's reading along for the ride :D

Perfect attitude Ally. That is so key!! Lifestyle and location must work for each individual. There is more to life than imprint hawks. Not everyone wants to have a zoo full of baggies. Not everyone lives in Missouri and has abundant quail. I can attest to the fact that you don't have to have your hawk by your side 24/7 to make a great imprint. Seriously, bathroom breaks are ok! ;). Conversly, not everyone wants to make a food imprint and go full on with OC.

[allredone]

"have a plan and stick to the plan". You seem to have the same mindset.

My dad always says: " Nothing ever happens according to plan. But if you don't make a plan nothing ever happens".

Steve Layman said to me once: "Plan for mistakes."

You must adapt. Because that's what the birds are doing.

[Richard]

Hey Doug,
I really appreciate the thoughtful comments :)
I definitely don't think there is only one right way to raise an imprint--I'm sure there are some great McDermott imprints out there, and some great Layman imprints, AND some other methods, like yours, that are individuals' own recipes.

The reason I chose this method is because I don't have any experience raising an imprint, and I don't have a lot of other birds under my belt, so this method is one that is structured in a way that makes a lot of sense to me with my behaviorism background. It gives me a tool to communicate with my little guy in a way that makes sense to both me and him--and really, I think that's the key. Use whatever method makes the most sense to you and that you understand. I don't think this method would work with someone that doesn't have a solid foundation with operant conditioning, just like McDermott's method probably wouldn't work with someone that couldn't take their bird EVERYWHERE with them.

My advice (which is only based on my own experience, so take it with a grain of salt) to anyone that is thinking about doing an imprint, is to look at all the methods out there and look at their own lifestyle and see which one "fits." I was very apprehensive to try an imprint until I learned about Steve's methods...they clicked for me. I felt like it was something I could do, and hopefully do successfully. I could be wrong...this could all go to hell in a handbasket...but I"m gonna give it my best shot, and take everyone who's reading along for the ride :D

You're doing a great job with this boy, Ally! I wish we could have set you up with a bird, but everything possible went wrong this year. We ended up only producing one eyass and had several folks on hold. Glad to see you were able to locate one and are doing so well with him!

[Ally]

Thanks Richard :) It seemed to have been my kinda luck this year--I was originally set up with Barry and he ended up producing more females than males, so I called Becky, and then a mutual friend of Lew and I put me in contact with him. I'm just happy there are so many quality folks breeding such nice birds!

Well I was gonna let Jack go exploring this morning and test his wings, but we've got a nasty storm blowing in. So we just played tidbit games inside this morning for his breakfast. He came and found me this morning and let me know it was breakfast time and was being a little pushy about it--again, shouldn't have backed off on the parent/eyass relationship work!--so I walked away from him and sat down with his breakfast in front of me.

He ran over to me and I held a piece up in my fingers, and he plopped right down on his hocks and went back to baby mode. Marked and jackpotted.

[allredone]

Thanks Richard :)
He ran over to me and I held a piece up in my fingers, and he plopped right down on his hocks and went back to baby mode. Marked and jackpotted.

Neat! thumbsupp. Nice work.

[Ally]

We've been backtracking the last couple of days because of *my* mistake and repairing that parent/eyass relationship and it's been working very well.

Jack comes to me for his meal from wherever he happens to be, plops back on his haunches to get fed. Occasionally he will stand back up if he needs to work on a piece, but as long as he is calm and patient he still gets fed. We're also clicking for chasing behavior by tossing quail wings, and his wings are getting stronger and stronger...he's antsy and active in the house, but calm out in the weathering unless he's playing with a toy.

I said this before but, because of my work schedule I can't do a "true" tame hack and check on him during the day, but we will begin doing walkabouts this weekend...I'm very, very nervous. First imprint, first hack...O.O Any tips to calm the nerves folks???

[goshawkr]

Any tips to calm the nerves folks???

A big swig of tequila helps a lot.

[Ally]

47 days --

Wow it was hot today. I turned Jack out into the weathering for a bit in the morning and filled his bathpan and he could hardly wait for me to finish pouring before he dove on into it.

He spent some time out at hack today around the house and managed to get himself up in a tree that he couldn't figure out to get down from. He got down to about 18 feet off the ground and got stuck, trying his darndest to come down to his lure but too scared. I ended up offering him my T-perch as a stepstool to get down, which he took.

Jack also got his first baggie today, a live sparrow. I held him on the fist and had a friend drop the sparrow on a weight. He bailed straight off the fist and grabbed it. Then it flapped and he leg go like WTF?? Took him about 5 minutes of toying with it and playing with it before he finally put his feet on it and ate it. He let me reach in and pull pieces off and help him hold it down without any problem. Stepped up to the glove for a tidbit afterwards.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/BJ47dayshack2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/BJ47dayshack.jpg

[colelkhunter]

Looks like Jack is doing well Ally. I am hacking blue out as well, but the weather and heat have held me up a little. Taking advantage of some time now to tether her to a perch and get some glove time. She hasn't had much of either. Looks like you are right on schedule with Jack, good job.

[Ally]

Thanks Brian :) There are little things that I wish I would have done differently but I think my first imprint is going very well so far. I'm excited to see how Blue does!

[Ally]

Well our weather went from one extreme to the other today, so our walkabout got canceled...it was miserably hot this morning/afternoon, so I left Jack in the house where it was cool and went to the river for a bit, then just as I was coming back to do an evening walk, a giant thunderstorm rolled in with high winds. :-/

So we did work inside. I had 2 live sparrows so I used the second one today inside. I got him on the fist and had already placed the sparrow and walked into the room with him. He repeated his performance of yesterday by bailing, grabbing it, and then backing off when it started flapping/screaming and picking at it and dancing around it for a few minutes. He did foot more than he did yesterday so I marked each time he footed at it, and he grabbed onto it and got down to business faster this time than he did yesterday. His attitude was calmer today too, not even a thought of mantling and letting me reach in and unhook the sparrow from the weight. In fact, when I reached in to help him, he did what he does on the lure and backed up and waited for me to finish. He ate about half of it and then tossed and chased the other half around for a bit.

I also just got one of the best birthday presents I ever have--a double giant hood, made for me by Richard (muwala here on NAFEX) that has enough tail clearance for the goshawk and is big enough to fit my RT as well. It's wood-framed with FRP panel walls and the interior is entirely smooth. The boxes latch together with 4 small pins and it takes about 30 seconds to connect them/disconnect them and they can be used independently. They're light and strong and easy to clean and I LOVE them! After his baggie I put Jack in one of the compartments and clicked and marked his calmness in the box. I shut the door, waited a moment, and opened and clicked/jackpotted a few times. He did great. He's sitting on my tookbox watching the storm through the window at the moment.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/doublebox2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/doublebox3.jpg

[Ally]

Sorry it's sideways and dark, but here's a vid of BJ playing with his favorite toy tonight...silly little eyass...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/th_BJplaying48days.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/?action=view&current=BJplaying48days.mp4)

[Ally]

51 days --
800g

I am definitely starting to see some attitude with Jack. I've heard it called this, and I can now agree with it, but it seems he is in the "teenager" stage.

He's more playful than ever and will go crazy with his toys and chase the dogs around the yard and the cats through the house, and when he is allowed to freeloft in the living room he is constantly in motion.

I've noticed one thing that I did wrong that he is somewhat sensitive about--when I put his anklets on, I started first in his nest bowl where he wouldn't sit still and then moved him to a perch, and I've noticed he's developed a little bit of sensitivity when messing with his legs. He doesn't stand still when I go to put a bell or a transmitter on him. So I've been putting his lure out with part of a meal on it and jessing him up/putting a bell on at that time and rebuilding a positive association.

He takes far more interest in my setter than he does in my husky...he will go out of his way to chase him around the yard, and he's airborne when he does it. He doesn't seem like he's aggressing--I think it's because the dog's afraid of him and runs away. My husky, who is also white, ignores the bird even when he jumps on his back or grabs his tail, and therefore Jack has no interest. I'm keeping an eye on it but I'm uneasy about that relationship.

Jack is a little vocal in the evenings when I come home, but quiets down once he's out of the weathering and playing in the yard. He gets his morning meal on the lure and his evening meal cut up in the form of tidbits either fed from my fingers or playing tidbit hunts around the yard.

[Richard]

51 days --800g I am definitely starting to see some attitude with Jack. I've heard it called this, and I can now agree with it, but it seems he is in the "teenager" stage.

He's more playful than ever and will go crazy with his toys and chase the dogs around the yard and the cats through the house, and when he is allowed to freeloft in the living room he is constantly in motion.

I've noticed one thing that I did wrong that he is somewhat sensitive about--when I put his anklets on, I started first in his nest bowl where he wouldn't sit still and then moved him to a perch, and I've noticed he's developed a little bit of sensitivity when messing with his legs. He doesn't stand still when I go to put a bell or a transmitter on him. So I've been putting his lure out with part of a meal on it and jessing him up/putting a bell on at that time and rebuilding a positive association.

He takes far more interest in my setter than he does in my husky...he will go out of his way to chase him around the yard, and he's airborne when he does it. He doesn't seem like he's aggressing--I think it's because the dog's afraid of him and runs away. My husky, who is also white, ignores the bird even when he jumps on his back or grabs his tail, and therefore Jack has no interest. I'm keeping an eye on it but I'm uneasy about that relationship.

Jack is a little vocal in the evenings when I come home, but quiets down once he's out of the weathering and playing in the yard. He gets his morning meal on the lure and his evening meal cut up in the form of tidbits either fed from my fingers or playing tidbit hunts around the yard.

Sounds like he is coming along GREAT! Be sure to keep the windows and mirrors covered while he is loose in the house; perhaps when he is loose outside, too...

[JRedig]

51 days --
800g

I've noticed one thing that I did wrong that he is somewhat sensitive about--when I put his anklets on, I started first in his nest bowl where he wouldn't sit still and then moved him to a perch, and I've noticed he's developed a little bit of sensitivity when messing with his legs. He doesn't stand still when I go to put a bell or a transmitter on him. So I've been putting his lure out with part of a meal on it and jessing him up/putting a bell on at that time and rebuilding a positive association.



Backpack? <win>

[lewsouder]

Hey Ally,
I've really have been enjoying this thread, and all the other imprint gos threads as well. I also attempted a tame hack with my bird this year but have given up because of an unsettling incident that occurred yesterday. Grimm found himself in a pool twice yesterday. Once in my backyard and again in the neighbors. Luckily, I was around to fish him out both times. His bath pan was under his favorite tree but I guess the pools looked more inviting with the hot temps we are experiencing. Sure I can cover my pool but what about the neighbors down the block and across the street. I am coming to the conclusion that my neighborhood may not be conducive to tame hacking. Sooo...I've got him tied down in the shade today. I hope all goes well with everyone else's hack.

[FredFogg]

Hey Ally,
I've really have been enjoying this thread, and all the other imprint gos threads as well. I also attempted a tame hack with my bird this year but have given up because of an unsettling incident that occurred yesterday. Grimm found himself in a pool twice yesterday. Once in my backyard and again in the neighbors. Luckily, I was around to fish him out both times. His bath pan was under his favorite tree but I guess the pools looked more inviting with the hot temps we are experiencing. Sure I can cover my pool but what about the neighbors down the block and across the street. I am coming to the conclusion that my neighborhood may not be conducive to tame hacking. Sooo...I've got him tied down in the shade today. I hope all goes well with everyone else's hack.

Hey Lew, just think if of it as training for when he takes his first duck over water and lands in the water. LOL Glad you were there to fish him out!

[Ally]

Oh jeez Lew, sounds scary. Not many outdoor pools around these parts...but the river is decently close.

Well, BJ's hack is officially on hold...my transmitter is toast. Tried my other antenna, tried brand new batteries, double and triple checked i was on the right frequency...and nothing. frus) Why???

We're getting very close to penning and his attitude reflects it. He's a little more vocal now when he sees me and if allowed to, will snatch at his food and try to mantle over it. I keep following Brian's thread and seeing that Blue is cuddling in his lap and following him around like a puppy--lies, I say. He's fooling us all, he's actually got a harris hawk in there :P

The "baby state" hasn't been working as well or as often as it used to, so I've had to mix up my tactics a little bit. I haven't hammered down exactly where my mistake was that got him started with this behavior...I'm almost positive it was when I focused too much on the lure. He knows it and will go after it like a shot, but his attitude isn't where I want it to be.

At this point he's working for every tidbit. We did hooding drills yesterday, and from the first couple of very frustrated tidbits, it was neat to see his mental state change. The "thoughtful/working" state is just as effective as the eyass state...he went from trying everything he could to get to the dish of food to trying to figure out what exactly he had just done to earn his click/tidbit. His posture changed, his expression (what little of it there is) changed, he slicked down and you could just see the wheels turning. It made an impact on the rest of the day as well.

Nothing new or exciting to report until I get a new transmitter, I guess. Great to be reading all the other hacks :)

[BestBeagler]

Nothing new or exciting to report until I get a new transmitter, I guess. Great to be reading all the other hacks :)

I'm not hacking my bird but I feel like a hack when I make mistakes with her. Does that count :)?

[Ally]

LOL Isaac I think I can relate to that.

54 days -
790g

BJ came with me to another BBQ today where there MIGHT have been more dogs than people, but he absolutely stole the show. This was his first big trip in the GH and he rode quietly and loaded in and out without a fuss.

He had dogs running and wrestling around him that he didn't bat an eyelash at, and everybody coming to stare, pet, and take pictures. I fed him tidbits in the middle of the commotion and he took it all in stride. He got misted by the sprinkler system and kept cool and other than when one dog bumped his perch didn't hear a peep out of him.

Keeping cool in the shade:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/2012-07-15_16-26-31_363.jpg

Little attention hound...
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/2012-07-15_17-22-53_510.jpg

"Whatchyoo got there?"
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/BJstare54days.jpg

[Dirthawking]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/2012-07-15_16-26-31_363.jpg




Hey Ally, If I could make one recommendation. When using a rotating perch like that it is best to tie off the extra leash up out of the way of the moving parts. Sooner or later the leash tail will get wrapped around that stem and stop it from moving. Nothing gets a bird more pissed when they cant move because they are hanging over the top of a perch because it did not rotate. Experience speaking here.

Love that last picture!

[Ally]

Mario, thanks for the tip! Will do!

57 days old --

Today I realized 2 things:
1) It is not, in fact my transmitter, but my receiver that's broken. That's worse. :( Tried 3 different trannies and couldn't get a single one to register on the receiver.
2) I know why Jack chases my (white) dogs' tails. His favorite toy (seen in video above) is a white ball of yarn with a long white tail on it...oops.

Took the setter out to a big chunk of state land in the Bitterroot valley to run him and see if we could bump up any hungarian partridge. My friend's new young peregrine and Jack were also getting some pigeon baggies.

Bo did a great job, he worked the right distance for the terrain and was very responsive to voice cues. He was a little too intent on the peregrine but ignored Jack when he was out.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Bohunt718.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Jack71857days.jpg

Jack surprised me today by putting in a chase on some wild collared doves. He wasn't all that graceful about it but he gave it a good try. He also had his first pigeon baggie tonight. :D He did better than my redtail did on hers. Off the fist from about 80 yards away, he hit the pigeon right on. This is about a minute after hitting the pigeon. His manners were very good, mantled for a moment but settled down quickly and began plucking.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Jackpigeon57days.jpg

Enjoy!

[Richard]

Mario, thanks for the tip! Will do!

57 days old --

Today I realized 2 things:
1) It is not, in fact my transmitter, but my receiver that's broken. That's worse. :( Tried 3 different trannies and couldn't get a single one to register on the receiver.

Bo did a great job, he worked the right distance for the terrain and was very responsive to voice cues. He was a little too intent on the peregrine but ignored Jack when he was out.
Enjoy!

What kind of receiver do you have? Does your receiver power up at all? Do you get static when you turn it on? Have you opened it up to check for loose or broken wires?

[FredFogg]

What kind of receiver do you have? Does your receiver power up at all? Do you get static when you turn it on? Have you opened it up to check for loose or broken wires?

Also, and you may already know this, but never leave the batteries in a reciever during the off season as it will corrode the connections. Open it up and if the
connections are corroded, clean them up and it probably will work again.

[allredone]

Good luck sorting out your Reciever issues. Is your reciever an older one? I dont onow what you have invested in it or what warrantie might cover but if it looks like spendy repair might be needed consider the trade in offer from Communications specialists.

Their R-400 is the cats pajamas and if you send them your broken Reciever they will reduce the price to only $300. Pretty amazing deal. Very solid performance reviews. I'm tickled with mine.

Nice pictures Ally. Thanks for ousting them. Handsome bird and dog.

[Ally]

Haha Fred...i did not know that...but i will certainly check.
Aaron-- funny you should mention that. It is an r 400 I have loved it up until this point. I hope there's nothing seriously wrong with it!

[PeteJ]

I don't know if you're aware of this, but you must be extremely careful feeding pigeons to Goshawks, particularly when they are young. There are so many diseases that pigeons harbor that Goshawks are highly susceptible to, and when the hawk is young and its immune system is not yet working at full blast they are in a very precarious place to fight off disease. I gave my first Gos a baggy pigeon that I assumed was healthy, a few days later she was dead and necropsy revealed it was likely the pigeon. That's when Dr. Pat Redig stated that he advocates NEVER feeding pigeons or doves to Goshawks. I have refrained from doing that with most of my Goshawks since then and have had two very long lived ones (17 years plus) since adopted that motto. Just thought I'd pass that along in case no one has given you the heads up about it.

[goshawks00]

I have refrained from doing that with most of my Goshawks since then and have had two very long lived ones (17 years plus) since adopted that motto. Just thought I'd pass that along in case no one has given you the heads up about it.

I am with you on that Pete... .......

[wyodjm]

I don't know if you're aware of this, but you must be extremely careful feeding pigeons to Goshawks, particularly when they are young. There are so many diseases that pigeons harbor that Goshawks are highly susceptible to, and when the hawk is young and its immune system is not yet working at full blast they are in a very precarious place to fight off disease. I gave my first Gos a baggy pigeon that I assumed was healthy, a few days later she was dead and necropsy revealed it was likely the pigeon. That's when Dr. Pat Redig stated that he advocates NEVER feeding pigeons or doves to Goshawks. I have refrained from doing that with most of my Goshawks since then and have had two very long lived ones (17 years plus) since adopted that motto. Just thought I'd pass that along in case no one has given you the heads up about it.

I agree.

[Saluqi]

I had a passage tiercel goshawk in residence about 3-4 years ago who had killed maybe 20 of my pigeons and cleaned out a local barn. I finally ended up trapping him and he was fat and healthy. A friend who has a banding permit came by and banded him, and I had a banded tiercel come in the next winter. I have always fed pigeons to my goshawks, my tiercel got frounce once and that was easily cleared up, like any food source pigeons have their risks.

[Ally]

Thanks for the concerns, everyone. I do know there are risks to feeding pigeon, but like Paul said, that can be said of any food source. This was a captive bred homer, in case anyone was curious.

[Ally]

Oh, and on the receiver...

Checked out the battery compartment, looks just fine. Opened it up and looked at the circuitboard and everything looks connected, no broken cable jackets or anything disconnected...called CSI and the rep did some basic troubleshooting over the phone. It powers on just fine, but I get a lot of static feedback and when I turn a tranny on the static increases a little and the meter goes apeshit for a second, but I don't get any sort of real signal. This has been on 3 different transmitters.

They said send it in and they'd see what they could do about it...hope they can fix it.

[goshawkr]

Oh, and on the receiver...

Checked out the battery compartment, looks just fine. Opened it up and looked at the circuitboard and everything looks connected, no broken cable jackets or anything disconnected...called CSI and the rep did some basic troubleshooting over the phone. It powers on just fine, but I get a lot of static feedback and when I turn a tranny on the static increases a little and the meter goes apeshit for a second, but I don't get any sort of real signal. This has been on 3 different transmitters.

They said send it in and they'd see what they could do about it...hope they can fix it.

Dang -

Hope your reciever did not catch frounce from being in contact with mine in Vernal. That sounds just like what mine was doing.

[allredone]

Aaron-- funny you should mention that. It is an r 400 I have loved it up until this point. I hope there's nothing seriously wrong with it!

Ha! I'm with Geoff. Your Reciever probably has flounce. Did you Put it in the freezer? ;)

Well let us know what it find out. Just got one myself and curious what went wrong and if they will take good care of you with warrantee?

[Ally]

Got my new Marshall Scout in the mail on Friday and found out something interesting--on a friend's transmitter @ 216.022, my receiver didn't pick up anything. When I was playing with the frequency, voila! I got something at 216.012--good strong signal. My transmitter @ 216.002 picked up nothing, but when I go below 216, the R400 receiver seems to go dead (is this normal?).
However, my transmitter (216.002) only gives off a very faint signal to another receiver. confusedd
BUT, my Marshall Scout is at 216.055 and comes in loud and clear on my receiver, and another transmitter @ 216.047 also comes in just fine. Apparently, training a goshawk means that Murphy and the god of chaos team up and have a field day with you.

Over the weekend...Jack's walkabout hack has resumed, although he doesn't really follow. Friday night, we did tidbit hunts in the yard and the lightbulb seemed to go off for him. Before this point, I've had to walk over and pick him up after he's "caught" a tidbit, but on Friday he returned to the empty fist every time. He has finally begun to understand what the flushing cue is as well. When I give him the "shh shh shh" he slicks down and starts looking.

On Saturday morning I took him to a thicker wooded area to see if that might prompt him to follow along in the trees a little more, but he never left the glove. He remained rock steady on the fist for almost 30 minutes, walking through cattails and some thick brush. I'll be mostly hawking off the fist with him, so I was thrilled :) It probably saved his butt too, because as we were walking, we spotted this:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/greathornedowl.jpg
Can you spot the great-horned owl? She was eyeballing Jack probably 20 yards from us, and even when the setter ran right underneath her she didn't budge. I threaded BJ's jesses in quickly and we beat feet outta there.

Jack was on his own this morning as I had a massive headache, and he spent a few hours outside and didn't go very far. He came down to his lure and transferred for his AM meal on the fist and spent the rest of the day in the weathering yard.

Tonight was more hooding drills. Something I've noticed...if you're having a hard time shaping the behavior with capturing "attention" to the hood and CR'ing, tidbits in the hood do work as a food lure to begin shaping the correct behavior. I wanted to avoid this if I could because I've found that making the bird follow food makes it more difficult to shape the behavior without food later on, but by CRing the action of him sticking his face in the hood and him being immediately rewarded by the tidbit IN the hood a couple of times made the rest of the session go without a hitch--it takes a little bit of precise timing, but it worked very well. He was stuffing his face into it with no tidbit and looking for the tidbit after hearing the click. I think another day of the partial behavior and a day or two of the hood going fully on without the braces struck and we'll be ready for the next step.

We're only a day or two from hard penning...checking his feather shafts, there is still some liquid in the shaft but it's getting very very light. His attitude is still very good...he's having to think and/or physically work for every piece of food he gets. :) Cheers!

[Ally]

I have...quite possibly...the goofiest goshawk in the northwest...
When his lure was tossed this morning for his breakfast, he nailed it, then grabbed the chick and jumped and spun 360 with it a few times...
If you want to know what it looks like, see the video I posted earlier of him playing with his toy. Looks exactly like that. What a dork. toungeout

[colelkhunter]

I think the dorkyness is going around. Blue is getting weirder by the day...:D

[JRedig]

I have...quite possibly...the goofiest goshawk in the northwest...
When his lure was tossed this morning for his breakfast, he nailed it, then grabbed the chick and jumped and spun 360 with it a few times...
If you want to know what it looks like, see the video I posted earlier of him playing with his toy. Looks exactly like that. What a dork. toungeout

Andreis did this kind of thing all the time this year. He'd be sitting on his bow perch, hackles go up, and he'd start tap dancing in circles flapping/flying/footing the perch or toy. Land...sit still a minute...back at it for a bit. He'd do that sometimes for hours. Got to the point where I could throw his toy in there and he'd tap dance it then land and look at me with his head upside down.

[Ally]

It is the funniest thing. He does it with his morning meals pretty consistently now, and is still incredibly playful. A friend was dangling a couple of ear buds and he thought that was just FASCINATING.

I learned a couple of things about tame hacking and about people in general...
People are more observant than I give them credit for. Jack was exploring and ended up in the trees in front of someone's house. He ended up landing on their roof. The guy noticed the bells and transmitter and later, he told me 'I've seen this done in movies, can't be that hard' and ran inside and got a pair of work gloves. crazyy
BJ, of course, saw a glove presented to him and came down to visit...boy was the guy surprised. After Jack had had enough of his new friend and went to inspect the neighbor's dog kennel, the guy was trying to find the right person to contact about a "lost" hawk... Half an hour later when I recovered him, still in the neighbor's yard, I explained the situation and he got a good laugh out of it. Thought Jack was the most interesting thing he'd ever seen...
Anybody else ever had someone (nonfalconer) try to cal ltheir bird down?? Thought I almost had a heart attack...

[Chris Proctor]

Ally, I'd love to do a Black Jack themed hood for you....if you still want one when I am taking new orders let me know..

[colelkhunter]

Ally,
we like to think that our birds are one falconer birds,sadly, most are whorestoungeout

[goshawks00]

Anybody else ever had someone (nonfalconer) try to cal ltheir bird down?? Thought I almost had a heart attack...

More times then you'd imagine... not to mention while hawking.

I've got great neighbors, I hawk on all their places, and they are ever vigilant to keep an eye out for my hawks. A couple that comes to mind were the kids the next farm down. They loved the hawks and would come over as often as we would let them.. they esp the 10 year old girl, spent an amazing amount of time playing with , probably the last 6-7 goshawks I've hacked. That said on two different occasions I tracked the wayward hawk down to their place and called to see if they saw him. Yes he was upstairs in her bedroom playing house!! Seems Ricky had just walked in with her and followed her upstairs. Another time he was in the neighbors kid's tree house playing with them. When I got there the mother called the kids down and they called Ricky down to them as I stood there ... He landed right at their feet and then proceeded to walk over to the deck hop up on the picnic table and lay down.
Had another gos Apache fly down to the neighbors farm and end up in the barn... They quickly called and said they trapped a hawk and did I want it.
So I walked down and retrieved him and called him along as I walked home. It's great to live in the sticks and to have neighbors that watch out for the birds.

[Ally]

Ally, I'd love to do a Black Jack themed hood for you....if you still want one when I am taking new orders let me know..

Chris, that would be awesome! Let me know when you've got some availabililty!

Jack is definitely an attention whore...Barry, your neighbors sound awesome. I believe I remember reading something about Thor last year playing in the neighbor's tree house?

Oh, so many adventures :)

[Ally]

I still learn new things every day with this bird, and watch him learn something new as well.

I came home from work and brought Jack inside from the weathering and let him play with the dogs. He runs around on the ground and chases them, and I swear he thinks it's funny. Bless my husky's patient heart, however...Jack was zooming through doorways and ended up accidentally landing on Kodi's face and then tumbling off, and all the dog did was step over him and keep walking. Shortly thereafter, Jack ran up and footed his tail, and so the husky just sat down and ignored him. I found myself scolding the goshawk and pushing him away from the dog as he tried to bite the dog's paw. So what does Jack do? He runs under the coffee table to get another shot at the tail...shooed off again, he runs between my legs and goes after the setter's tail. Oh, what a fun game this is!

Finally he gave up on the dogs and went to kill a tennis ball. He tossed it around for a while and then wandered into my bedroom, where he pulled a shirt out of the laundry basket and started dragging it around and tap dancing with it...then he moved on to a pair of shorts. I was told that if he started playing with lingerie I had to get a picture....no such luck toungeout

For his walkabout this evening he was in my parents' neighborhood, as I have an uncle visiting for a few weeks. He landed on the roof and scared the crap outta my sister, who was sitting up there, then took off after something with murder in his eyes by the next house down. After not catching it, he zoomed around the neighborhood for a few minutes, pulling all kinds of acrobatics. I'm amazed by the increase in his speed, strength and coordination.

Crows came in very quickly and started harassing him, and at first he was scared of them and went and hid close to the bole of a big, thick spruce tree. He moved to a cottonwood behind the house and posed for a few pictures by the visiting relatives...and then he decided that he was tough enough to do so, and singled out a crow and rocketed after it. It was a VERY pleasant surprise, as I have always wanted to hawk crows. :D

At dinner time and about the 3 hour mark, I went to call Jack down. I put on my glove and gave a whistle blast and he bailed out of the tree he was in to come and land on the roof of the house right next to me. I pulled out his ungarnished lure and he was on it like white on rice. He mantled quite a bit harder than he usually does, but I'm attributing that to the threat of the crows still hovering overhead. He didn't turn away from me or seem bothered by my hands slipping his jesses in or helping him with his meal.

During dinner he was tethered on the back deck with us, and was calm and preening with a good crop, until a squirrel came out into the open on the trunk of a tree. He immediately slicked down and was keenly interested. This is the first day I've seen him act even remotely serious about anything...and now he seemed serious about everything. My little baby's growing up *sniff*. :D

[Goshawk635]

Anybody else ever had someone (nonfalconer) try to cal ltheir bird down?? Thought I almost had a heart attack...

Ally,

I had a similar experience but it didn't go quite as well. I had a young female HH who had a few head under her belt but was still very much a baby. We were hawking near a casino for some early season bunnies laying out in low cover. I was perhaps 100 yards from the parking lot when a man and two women climbed out of a car and noticed us. They were talking back and forth when the man raised his fist to the air (must have seen Lady Hawke or some other movie). Well as the early training my bird received was flying back and forth between a friend and I, she left the fist like a rocket. She landed on his raised fist but he must have thought better of it and dropped his arm. She insitinctively locked on to her failing perch. She released him as he dropped to his knees and flew back to me. I clipped her up and approached the trio. The ladies were laughing their heads off and the man was not injured (scratched in two places). Wounded pride in a man is almost as dangerous as backing a wild animal into a corner. I sized things up and decided not to lecture him but rather helped him ease out of his embarassment. It could have gone sideways very fast. I tried to reframe my perception of him as he was headed into a casino to hand in his hard earned money so judgment may have been an issue in more than one area of his life.

[Ally]

BJ's weight bounces around a bit, but I also don't weigh him consistently or at the same time of day, but he seems to be hovering right in the vicinity of 750g. He doesn't have as much muscle mass as I'd like but he alaso doesn't get out as much as I'd like...just a couple hours a day and sometimes he flies around, sometimes he sits and does nothing. We're building up to full RP's but I've never done them before and he returns to the fist after a bate towards the food more often than not. I *think* what I'm doing wrong is not moving towards the food fast enough to let him realize he's making progress towards it, and not starting far enough away, so I'm making adjustments and going to try again tonight.

He's totally got the stuffing his face in the hood to get a click/reward thing down, so last night the hood went all the way on without the braces struck. He let me get it on with no fuss (leaned back a little bit but didn't dodge or complain) but almost immediatley tried to shake it off.

I started just getting it on, click, take off, reward. I was gradually increasing the duration.

HOWEVER, I left it on too long on one of the last attempts and he got upset and shook it off. At that point I did NOT want to reward the chitter and getting the hood off, so I had to get the hood BACK on and remove it with a click/reward. I don't think very much damage was done, but tonight's session will tell. Note to self: don't push for duration too fast. When I went to hood him after he shook it off, the behavior was the same though. He didn't protest, didn't act fearful, so I'm hopeful. :)

Also going to try to capture any calm behavior in the hood to CR, instead of him shaking his head. Trying to get a chukar to bag him on in the next couple of days, just waiting on the guy to call me back.

[JRedig]

We're building up to full RP's but I've never done them before and he returns to the fist after a bate towards the food more often than not. I *think* what I'm doing wrong is not moving towards the food fast enough to let him realize he's making progress towards it, and not starting far enough away, so I'm making adjustments and going to try again tonight.


What's your target/quarry for RP's? On the ground or on something?

[goshawks00]

[QUOTE=Ally;250386]. We're building up to full RP's but I've never done them before and he returns to the fist after a bate towards the food more often than not. I *think* what I'm doing wrong is not moving towards the food fast enough to let him realize he's making progress towards it, and not starting far enough away, so I'm making adjustments and going to try again tonight.

Ally, get a longer creance and let him pull it through your fingers as he 'rows' toward the food... Free pull at first, then lightly apply pressure letting it still slide through your fingers, after a couple, apply just a little more pressure, then again after a few a little more. Also don't get to far away from the tidbit, esp. at first. It's reward, then reward with a bit more effort, and so on. BTW not all done in one feeding, build him up to it. The goal is great effort for small reward... Big rewards will help shape his effort if done randomly.

[JRedig]

This is an awesome demonstration video: http://timjessell.com/out/Restrained...TimJessell.mp4 (http://timjessell.com/out/RestrainedPursuitsTimJessell.mp4)

[goshawkr]

BJ's weight bounces around a bit, but I also don't weigh him consistently or at the same time of day, but he seems to be hovering right in the vicinity of 750g. He doesn't have as much muscle mass as I'd like but he alaso doesn't get out as much as I'd like...just a couple hours a day and sometimes he flies around, sometimes he sits and does nothing. We're building up to full RP's but I've never done them before and he returns to the fist after a bate towards the food more often than not. I *think* what I'm doing wrong is not moving towards the food fast enough to let him realize he's making progress towards it, and not starting far enough away, so I'm making adjustments and going to try again tonight.

When starting Restrained Pursuits, its important to not take things too fast. If he is returning to the fist more often than bateing hard for the food, adjust your criteria.

The goal in each session of a RP is very simple - bate for x seconds, then I'll let you "catch" it.

Like any other Operant Conditioning exercise, you need to start small, and work up as progress develops. Start with a 2 second bate, and adjust. If the bating is always vigorous, maybe you increase the bate time.

You want to find the line where the hawk dosnt succeed every time, but does succeed most of the time to start with. Later on, succeeding only 20% of the time will actually make them try harder all the time.

[Ally]

Between yesterday and today, Blackjack has earned a few new names...none of them very nice.

Yesterday he was having too much fun buzzing my dogs and other people's dogs (never hitting them, just zipping close and then checking off to do a few laps) that he completely ignored me. No lure, no fist, no nothing. He would skim right over my head to go somewhere else. @$#W$%$@$% goshawk! So I left him and came back a couple hours later. He finally came down. Bastard.

This morning took him out to see if we could get him any opportunities on collared dove or even crow. The first place we went, he made one good attempt off the fist after a dove, and went up on a pole and wouldn't come back down. 5 minutes later, he came to the lure. So we packed up and went to another spot.

Right off the bat, Jack bolted off the fist to go buzz the dog, then went and sat on a fencepost. Got him back and marked a collared dove that had just put into a sage bush. Got within 50 yards, flushed it, no interest. Kept walking and a cottontail busted out of the sage in a spot I've never seen them before! I yelled "Sh*t! Bunny!" and Jack launched off the fist after it. We ended up flushing 4 more after that, 3 of which Jack put chases in on....half-assed ones, but chases. Then a passage redtail came in and Jack almost got eaten...it finally wandered off, and he went half-heartedly after a couple of collared doves, and basically ignored the baggie bird we set out...he lost interest even as his hunger should have been increasing. crazyy

When he finally took the baggie, he mantled for a second and then settled down and started to pluck a little bit, but wasn't acting all that hungry. I sat down next to him to wait and he was fine, let me clip him in without even noticing, and then I offered a tidbit from my fingers and he flipped shit! :eek: Chittering and kakking at the hand with the tidbit and abandoned the baggie. WTF???? My right hand suddenly became a scary monster.

I offered him an opened up bird on the fist and he reluctantly hopped to it, and sat on the fist the whole way back looking and acting like a wild passage bird. Never touched the food. Got him loaded into the box, wholly frustrated with him and whatever it was I did, and took him home. Let him out of the box, he ran to his bath pan, hopped in and took a few drinks and a bath and acted like nothing was wrong. Crazy birds!

I've been warned that imprint goshawks can get like this right around/after penning time...tonight we're going to do some very basic relationship OC games...CR for rousing, preening, anything calm.
I'm reluctant to post the bad behavior, but I'm committed to making an honest account of my experience with him...and this is just one of those things. There were definitely some positives today, but the negatives are the things that stick out more.

[Richard]

Between yesterday and today, Blackjack has earned a few new names...none of them very nice.

I'm reluctant to post the bad behavior, but I'm committed to making an honest account of my experience with him...and this is just one of those things. There were definitely some positives today, but the negatives are the things that stick out more.

Time to cut his weight and get serious! Also sounds like "dispersal" came early... If you don't post the bad behavior, nobody can advise you on what to do about it. Cut his weight and get him used to all the things he used to be used to going on all over again.

[Ally]

That's kinda what I was thinking too. I'm further north than most folks here except for Canada, so it would make sense to me that dispersal comes a little earlier here than it does the further south you get.

He's been self-regulating his weight a bit, so for anyone who's curious, he was at 732g when I took him out this morning.

Of course, I went back out there just a few minutes ago to make sure he'd eaten his meal (any time a hungry bird isn't that interested in food it worries me...) and he'd devoured it. Turned his head upside down to look at me when I came into the chamber...little brat.

[Zarafia]

Do you think that the wild RT coming in to eat him might have upset him?

[Richard]

That's kinda what I was thinking too. I'm further north than most folks here except for Canada, so it would make sense to me that dispersal comes a little earlier here than it does the further south you get.

He's been self-regulating his weight a bit, so for anyone who's curious, he was at 732g when I took him out this morning.

Of course, I went back out there just a few minutes ago to make sure he'd eaten his meal (any time a hungry bird isn't that interested in food it worries me...) and he'd devoured it. Turned his head upside down to look at me when I came into the chamber...little brat.

I've been through the dispersal thing several times. They quite often act the perfect angel and alternate instantly to the devil himself and back again within a matter of minutes. I've had them lean over backwards and fall off the fist and fly away, only to return shortly as if nothing had happened. I've also seen them fly away without looking back. If you can relocate them, they will often fly right back to the fist or lure as though nothing happened. It's a very dangerous period where you can lose the bird if you're not real careful.

What does the breeder say the bird's flight weight should be? What was his father's flight weight?

[lewsouder]

Hi Richard...the answer to your question about the father's flying weight...unknown, I haven't flown him, but he is from Kitzman stock and is ten years old. I bought him last year as a proven donor from John Brennan. The female is from Steve Kauffer's project and I imprinted her 5 years ago. She flies jacks at 920 grams, and hunts bunnies and ducks up to 1000 grams. Although I never flew the tiercel I do trust the breeder whom I purchased him from. The male I held back this year is now flying at 690 grams and is doing great. I suspect his weight will increase as his confidence grows. Kirk Bernard also has one of my tiercels and he reports his bird is currently at 775 grams but hasn't started cutting yet. His bird is from a different female. In your experience concerning weights...do babies tend to get their size from the male or the female? I'm guessing your answer will be from the male....hence your question.

[lewsouder]

I produced one female this year that is being flown by a first year general. He reports her flying weight to be around 850 grams.

[Ally]

Thanks for the info Lew :) I would have had no idea how to answer that.

Still in the same crazy, wild mindset for his evening meal last night, Jack refused to even come to the lure, so he lost out. This morning his attitude was much improved. I took him out of the mew and he did foot the glove a little aggressively but once he figured out that there was nothing there he quieted down. Made him work hard for his breakfast and he came screaming into the lure better than he's ever done.

Transferred him onto the fist for his meal and he mantled a little harder than usual but still quieted down after only a minute. Took tidbits out of my fingers without a problem, unlike yesterday. Soon as his meal was over, fluffed up and put a footup and seems to be his old sweet self...for now.

[BestBeagler]

Welcome to the fun! My last male imprint gos went what yours is going through now. He did what I called "random bates of fear" they act really strange. Hang in there and be careful. Get a metabolism chart on him going now. Dont loose time like I did. Read McDermotts chapter on metabolism and weight control. It will make his behaviors make more sense.

[Richard]

Hi Richard...the answer to your question about the father's flying weight...unknown, I haven't flown him, but he is from Kitzman stock and is ten years old. I bought him last year as a proven donor from John Brennan. The female is from Steve Kauffer's project and I imprinted her 5 years ago. She flies jacks at 920 grams, and hunts bunnies and ducks up to 1000 grams. Although I never flew the tiercel I do trust the breeder whom I purchased him from. The male I held back this year is now flying at 690 grams and is doing great. I suspect his weight will increase as his confidence grows. Kirk Bernard also has one of my tiercels and he reports his bird is currently at 775 grams but hasn't started cutting yet. His bird is from a different female. In your experience concerning weights...do babies tend to get their size from the male or the female? I'm guessing your answer will be from the male....hence your question.

It seems like a gender based trait with females flying at around what the mother did and males what the father did. But they are all individuals and get genetics from both parents, so there is a bit of variation.

[Ally]

728g --
I started my rat breeding project today...as much as I love to support those retailers, my pocketbook can't handle it :D

I also scored 2 new hunting spots, courtesy of a friend of the family. One property has hungarian partridge on it, and the other has pheasants AND huns, both within about a 30 minutes drive. I am QUITE excited :D Also got a plea to come out and shoot as many gophers as I possibly can. As long as I shoot them and inspect them myself to make sure the bullets are either passed clean through or removed, I feel safe feeding them.

Since Jack refused his dinner last night, he was hungry this morning. He got a smaller meal than usual early this morning on the long lure call I mentioned earlier, and tonight was RP's until he stopped returning to the fist of his own accord and went to his perch, and gave more tidbits with hooding drills (still have not struck the braces, will be doing so by the end of the week) and then the rest of his meal on the lure with me handing him tidbits with the scary monster right hand. His attitude was MUCH better with the hunger drive up and his mind focused on working for his food rather than screwing off. Still a little brat :P

[Ally]

8/5/2012
708g

Jack is in full dispersal mode, and his weight still needs to come down. I am more a fan of Increase exercise to increase hunger, but if he's not hungry enough to make the effort to get the food, he's going to have to come down before he can be built back up.

He had a baggie again yesterday and came to it much faster, but mantled for a minute and danced around with it and then went to playing with it...wasn't focused on eating, and he had been 24 hours without food. With all the pieces he tore off and played with and dropped, he probably only had half of it.

He's definitely got the "bipolar goshawk" thing going on, where one minute he'll be his sweet self and then he'll be a lunatic. He calls at me when he sees me if he's at home in the mew and when I go up to him, but as with Brian and Blue, once I get him on the fist and work with him, he quiets down. If we're somewhere OTHER than home, he's very quiet all around. I'm trying to use this to my advantage as he learns to deal with hunger--I'm taking him other places to feed him and work with him.

He's completely hard penned now and we've been doing some hooding work. I can get it on him and leave it on him for a few seconds but he doesn't like it. However, he doesn't really dodge it either--he gets clicked and jackpotted each time it comes off. My goal is to get to striking the braces by the end of the week, on a night where he is very tired and I can leave him hooded over night.

Still no aggression towards me. Just weathering the storm :D

[BestBeagler]

Ally,

Hows it going? You weathering out the storm with Blackjack?

[Ally]

Oh we're getting there. Sorry for the lack of updates--not much exciting to report. I'm slowly lowering Jack's weight and as it comes off he's willing to work harder for his food, which is getting some of his pent-up energy released. Playing a lot of OC games to direct that energy away from me and make the wheels turn so he has something to focus on.

He does do some screaming now, when we're at the house, but if we're elsewhere he quiets down. I am hoping it goes away as he starts hunting and killing on his own.

Struck the braces on the hood for the first time Friday night and he threw a fit about it...did about 8 RP's intermixed with jump ups before doing it in 90 degree heat to tire his feathered butt out. He got a CR and a whole quail when removing it in the morning.

Hooded him again last night after doing a bunch of launcher leash jump ups and tidbit hunts and he leaned back from it a little bit but didn't dodge or snake his head. Was upset briefly again when the braces closed but calmed down a lot faster and I caught him with his foot up. He's currently sitting in the kitchen with a foot up and fluffed out. He has a whole DOC waiting for him on the lure when it comes off.

Just working through his nasty attitude and noise levels, waiting for the weather to cool off and him to get tuned into hunting. So good luck to everyone else whose going through the same thing :D

Right after the hood went on for the first time....not a happy camper.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/2012-08-10_20-30-36_657.jpg

The second night, a few hours later.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/2012-08-11_22-17-05_312.jpg

[Ally]

8/12/2012
690g

Tonight I had Jack freelofting in the house to keep his mind busy while I ate some dinner...but I learned my lesson.

I was sitting on the couch with a salad (read: green, orange carrots, NOTHING that looks remotely like meat) when I hear the wings, and Blackjack swooped in, snatched a talonful of salad out of my bowl, and was gone before I could even react. He took it to the back of the couch, looked at it, and then proceeded to flick every piece in a different direction, disgusted with his prize. I couldn't decide whether to swear at him or laugh at him. crazyy

So after that, we got down to business for his evening workout. His hunger drive has been getting a lot better, and after he comes down about another 10-15g I may be willing to take him out again and try to get him some slips, depending on his attitude.

He's been mantling pretty hard over the lure and trying to go hide with it, so I've been coming up with a plan to improve his attitude. It seems like all I've been doing is coming up with new plans, modifying old ones, and either heading off or fixing problems...ugh, goshawks!

So the evening started with launcher leash jump-ups. When he began to fail to reach the glove or refuse to jump to it at a certain height, we transitioned to restrained pursuits to tidbits on the ground and un-weighted jump-ups back to the glove. When his launch off the glove begins to get slow, we transitioned to my new game.

I toss out the lure and let him attack it unhindered (no restraint). I CR'ed the attack of the lure to reinforce, and then fed him a jackpot reward of tidbits while he stood on the lure. I controlled the way he accessed the food, so mantling was doing him no good--he had to reach up above his head and be patient to receive his reward. Then I tossed one tidbit away with my flushing cue, he chases it, CR, and gets the tidbit. Then the lure recall cue, he comes back to the lure and foots it, CR and small jackpot reward from my fingers (3-4 tidbits). Repeat for 5-10 repetitions.

Finally, he remains on the lure, and sees the tidbits obvious and available in my fingers. He has to look down at the lure and foot it to earn his reward. It worked extremely well....in hindsight I should have been doing this more vigorously a *lot* sooner, but better late than never.

Once his behavior says he's ready to go, we'll go out and try some actual hunting again. Getting close...

[Ally]

At 83 days old today...not everything is going as planned.
His noise level has increased to a level I can hardly tolerate. I hate screaming, and I am hoping and praying it goes away. I hate posting it because I don't like that things aren't going the way I want them to but...there you are.

Jack didn't want to work very hard for dinner tonight, so he didn't get much to eat. He did about 10 launcher leash jump ups and then quit. So he got a couple of hooding drills with jackpot rewards--first time he dodged a little, but after the jackpot the second and third times he nearly stuffed his face into it.

After I struck the braces he still threw a fit for about 5 minutes before he settled down...and he scratches at the hood more than I'm used to. I've checked for fit on the gape and made sure there were no wet spots on the eye panels when I take it off--and had a friend of mine who's a great hoodmaker look at it and she agreed the fit was fine...so I'm not sure why he scratches as much as he does. Maybe his eyelashes are brushing the edges but it's not touching his actual eye? confusedd

I hope I can get him out this week some time on some game. Hopefully that will refocus him.

[wingnut]

Wow Ally, I've got to say you've got a very complicated plan going there. Launcher leash jump ups, restrained pursuits, tidbits to the ground, clicker training, still free lofting in your house with an 80 day old gos that snatches your salad out of your bowl. I haven't read your whole thread but have you taken him out in the woods or wherever you plan to fly him and let him fly around? Call him to the glove, call him to the lure. Provide some good baggies etc. etc. He sounds really frustrated to me. Not trying to be negative but I've got a imprint about the same age and ya, he's got issues, but we keep it REALLY simple. Cuz goshawks like it simple and they like routine. I leave him in the mews all day. He squawks in the am till about 8:00 and then is quiet unless he sees me in the yard. I go out and pick him up late afternoon. I put him on the scale, put him in the box, and either take him out in the country and fly around the woods or in a meadow for a baggie quail. He chases anything the jrt flushes, even caught a few mice. When we don't go out we play hide the lure and I always have the jrt near buy. It is so simple it is crazy. Imprint goshawks don't have a lot going on in their head so I like to keep it simple.

[Ally]

To clarify...

I don't freeloft him in the house on a regular basis, he's too old for that...just happened to have him loose that time. Thought it was a funny story, not really open for discussion.

The last time I had him out in the field he refused the glove, the lure, and almost refused the baggie. If I wouldn't have had the baggie I might not have gotten him back for a while. He's also in dispersal mode...if I don't have at least a little field control, there's a possibility I could watch him migrate over the horizon. You can understand where a large monetary investment possibly flying away could be a concern...

The jump ups, RP's, etc. are for muscle building and to wear him out so he has an outlet for that energy--it's not overly complicated, just working to get food. All things that he knows how to do. He'll be out in the field again by this weekend. They've got more going on in their heads than most people think they do...but I agree, an established routine can help. Remember, I am using OC to shape behaviors and reduce aggression--which in that, at least, I have succeeded...he doesn't demonstrate aggression towards me at all. He's taking the hood well.

Just trying to post the bad with the good for others to learn from should they care to try the Steve Layman/OC route. I haven't done perfectly, so I'm trying to illustrate where and what is happening. At this time, I'm not open to switching my training style. Thanks though, will keep your words in mind.

[wingnut]

Ally, I admire your willingness to try the oc training route and also your willingness to share the journey. I have to check myself every now and then when I display the old man behaviors like "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" syndrome. It drives my wife nuts. I'm sure there are better ways to skin the cat so to speak and I really need to be more open to those methods.

Here's what I've leaned about goshawks and aggression. As we all know they are very aggressive by nature. Agreed?? My first imprint female that I pulled from a nest in 91 taught me what aggression was all about. Shortly after penning I started to cut her weight, went out to the mews one day were I had her tethered and picked her up on a leather glove (not a gauntlet) She bound one foot to the glove and the other on my bare wrist. Scared the hell out of me. I called my sponsor and he said, "get a welding glove, and get her killing stuff". Agression towards me went away and she was one of the best game hawks I've flown. I learned that if their natural aggression can be directed at a very young age to game they won't be aggressive to the handler. It's a very direct approach that worked very well on the next two imprints I flew and also on the current imprint.
As far as the dispersal mode, I'm sure it exists but I've never had to worry about it. When growing up if they are not killing baggies they are fed on the lure and jumped to the glove for feeding and eventually directly to the glove. I can honestly say I've never had an issue with field control during the dispersal stage. Granted I have had situations of reluctance but always felt like I had control. He is around 90 days now and shows that reckless abandon towards quarry that we all love about goshawks. He's caught two mice (whooo-hoo), chased several bunnies, and caught pretty much every baggie quail in everyway imaginable including penetrating some very think cover for them. He hasn't had a break away yet but he looks for me to finish the kill and transfers to the glove willingly.

I am very fortunate to have access to meadows, grassy fields, and woodlots all within 15 minutes so I haven't had to do those things like jump ups and rp's to muscle up the bird. Which is a good thing as I am probably not smart enough to do anything that complicated. But I admire anyone who will go to those lengths to condition a bird if other more natural sources are not available.
Sorry, went on a rant there. :eek:

[BestBeagler]

Ally, I admire your willingness to try the oc training route and also your willingness to share the journey. I have to check myself every now and then when I display the old man behaviors like "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" syndrome. It drives my wife nuts. I'm sure there are better ways to skin the cat so to speak and I really need to be more open to those methods.

Here's what I've leaned about goshawks and aggression. As we all know they are very aggressive by nature. Agreed?? My first imprint female that I pulled from a nest in 91 taught me what aggression was all about. Shortly after penning I started to cut her weight, went out to the mews one day were I had her tethered and picked her up on a leather glove (not a gauntlet) She bound one foot to the glove and the other on my bare wrist. Scared the hell out of me. I called my sponsor and he said, "get a welding glove, and get her killing stuff". Agression towards me went away and she was one of the best game hawks I've flown. I learned that if their natural aggression can be directed at a very young age to game they won't be aggressive to the handler. It's a very direct approach that worked very well on the next two imprints I flew and also on the current imprint.
As far as the dispersal mode, I'm sure it exists but I've never had to worry about it. When growing up if they are not killing baggies they are fed on the lure and jumped to the glove for feeding and eventually directly to the glove. I can honestly say I've never had an issue with field control during the dispersal stage. Granted I have had situations of reluctance but always felt like I had control. He is around 90 days now and shows that reckless abandon towards quarry that we all love about goshawks. He's caught two mice (whooo-hoo), chased several bunnies, and caught pretty much every baggie quail in everyway imaginable including penetrating some very think cover for them. He hasn't had a break away yet but he looks for me to finish the kill and transfers to the glove willingly.

I am very fortunate to have access to meadows, grassy fields, and woodlots all within 15 minutes so I haven't had to do those things like jump ups and rp's to muscle up the bird. Which is a good thing as I am probably not smart enough to do anything that complicated. But I admire anyone who will go to those lengths to condition a bird if other more natural sources are not available.
Sorry, went on a rant there. :eek:

Doug,

I'm listening to what you have to say to. How much did you have to drop your bird to get him to respond to game? I'm just wondering how much non tame hacked birds usually loose before showing interest in chasing stuff.

[wingnut]

Doug,

I'm listening to what you have to say to. How much did you have to drop your bird to get him to respond to game? I'm just wondering how much non tame hacked birds usually loose before showing interest in chasing stuff.

I took his first weight when he was 50 days old. He was 760g. He would kill baggie sparrows at that weight. At 60 days when I started flying him free he was 730g and he would come short distances to the glove and from any distance for the lure and he chased a baggie quail with vigor and caught it in the air. I took him as low as 720g but his keel was a little too sharp but he was very responsive. I got him back to 760g and he still was hot for baggies but lacked some response to the glove. Back down to 730 and got the quick response to the glove again. I kept him at that weight for about another week and then over the course of the last five days got him up to 765. My weight control has been more concentrated on field control and not game pursuit as he seems to do that at any weight. I don't think it is any particular technique I'm using because as I've discribed I like to keep it simple. It's just the way he is. My sponsor had a fair amount of experience with goshawks and he's the one that got me started feeding them only on the lure as a young bird and then calling to the glove as they get older and using the lure as a back up. He warned me that hand feeding can come back and bite you but that was a long time ago and many people have hand fed their goshawks with success. I just never had the nerve to try it. I think the best thing you can do with a gos is get them in the field asap and to do that you need field control early on. Then you can get them focused on game in whatever means you have available. Hope that helps.

[Ally]

Hey guys, thanks for the discussion. I really do appreciate all the thought everyone puts into their posts. There are so many different ways to do things, and it's been my experience that many of those ways work, but it's when you start mixing methods that things seem to fall apart. I'm going to see this method through and see how it works. Tweak things and learn things for next time.

Keep in mind this is my first imprint, and only my second accipiter that I've done any real work with.

Well, BJ got to come on a road trip with me this weekend and we are in bunny paradise...wish my redtail was down to weight because we busted some whitetailed jacks that I would have LOVED to get her on.

Jack is hovering around 690g and that number is going to climb. The lightbulb seems to have gone off for him. He's still noisy but it's gotten much better since we've been away from the home environment, and out in the field I am REALLY pleased.

Day 1 (Saturday) -
The CT hunting is very reminiscent of Vernal from last year...juniper and sage on small rolling hills with little draws. Jack rode the fist for a while but was pretty eager to stretch his wings so he flew around. Busted a jack first thing and he just looked at it (which I'm ok with, I wasn't expecting that). Couple of little tweety birds moved and he looked but wasn't overly interested. His response to the whistle and the glove was much better than it's ever been--he started to come look for me if he wasn't on the fist. Then we flushed the first cottontail, and he was off! Off the fist after it but lost it in the sage pretty quickly. We had a couple more run (or the same one multiple times) and he chased them but was having more fun than being serious. He did start to come back to the glove after a missed slip. After about two hours he started to wander a little bit, so we called it a morning with 5 or 6 chases on CT's and seeing 2 Whitetail Jacks.

Day 2 -
Lightbulb is getting brighter. Still some noise but I loved everything about his attitude--very upright on the glove, slicked down and looking for anything that moved. Really started to come looking for me if I went out of line of sight. First thing we saw again was a whitetailed jack, and this time he put in a chase on it! I don't really think I want him binding to one though...
We didn't find as many CT's this morning (I think 3 or 4) but his attitude and the amount of purpose and power in his flights made him look like he was out for blood. :) He was crashing bushes and weaving through little gaps in the trees and it was SO MUCH FUN to watch him. His last chase took him a lot further from the car than I wanted (we were working our way back) so I got him in a line of sight and called him to the lure from about 1/4 mile away. He made a beeline to it and transferred to the fist for his reward.

We didn't connect but we had a great time! Can't wait to get back home and get him on some pine squirrels...think they'll be awesome flights. Just killing time til upland bird season opens :D

[Ally]

Here's a few pictures from last weekend:

First evening after a long ride in the GH:
https://photos-6.dropbox.com/thumb/AADPq2gn_XONjGIyuUFU8EKRExmnvWjxaWCqnND9d7TrWA/10292445/jpeg/32x32/2/1345755600/0/2/IMG_1020.JPG/t70WR9_6EsU2-ovbOB8GJf_GnqEIves-FHvnL8PDZKc?size=1024x768

Morning 1, looking for bunnies
https://photos-4.dropbox.com/thumb/AADVuUjlLx_GQJd2IW0oZs9f7WldZg9DLl7-CZpocxKD2Q/10292445/jpeg/32x32/2/1345755600/0/2/IMG_1034.JPG/TTUlmQ1nWSi0eF8I3qE6GKI5j2TVb_uOOoy9vdAl_bQ%2CaP_g xEIcJxFaFha0TqiMuFQ_60o05rijWQF0dgAPlJw?size=1024x 768

Finding it a little hard to land on these silly junipers
https://photos-1.dropbox.com/thumb/AAAKefPuvTgzcZWn6_GYfsLAdUcvWD4O1kMEW2klNPh3ew/10292445/jpeg/32x32/2/1345755600/0/2/IMG_1042.JPG/R4u9NEt5lYCps7bHuUFPXSkIDaMn_TfoPAF2C9c7E70?size=1 024x768

https://photos-6.dropbox.com/thumb/AABWloJUWZBqRGTvOjyfcjXTmRq5AxBLic2hktDgh8SG6A/10292445/jpeg/32x32/2/1345755600/0/2/IMG_1074.JPG/5CFe8MyosJrj5d1VtaofeZmFNPNhOUDphQ-g_5-Qujo%2CKyTzRu-F9fRs0BU4Kw9w6JXy62Gy6YrpNT4d38ifnEg?size=1024x768

Pissed off after a missed bunny flight
https://photos-6.dropbox.com/thumb/AADmJfG1zas4djZSOsng1Ad4s3zgZTMp7-Ee8ThZOx5mqw/10292445/jpeg/32x32/2/1345755600/0/2/IMG_1080.JPG/fViLOcYNuudtGQDtb8VXyr5b_oCWh62gVvyuihzhNvM%2CMTkr RXM-WZSAosYFR1yoH7ngbu9NXi_1Y06EGy8QgVQ?size=1024x768

https://photos-3.dropbox.com/thumb/AACFQ7iwa-awNssOpU8cpLRUL6piB3pNygU3iAVZ7V0a7A/10292445/jpeg/32x32/2/1345755600/0/2/IMG_1081.JPG/PCW9fBEhhbLOo0p22iDqn8NOyaQQP9-0TK80rE9pDEs%2CsD7IRIeli4i6VxfA0aqVhmfdw5oNYX0ZiIe qr4lc9ws?size=1024x768

Coming back to the car
https://photos-1.dropbox.com/thumb/AABJzpD_dUMZ4ac0Dm5HVZdd73Ueg1gGafX1YE-w_SXX1Q/10292445/jpeg/32x32/2/1345755600/0/2/IMG_1083.JPG/lPlS1K-U4FeNODo3CX_Tqzhp4uQqLIlCI367GNXv5ps%2C_zZ3cMHPb0Q szO5phmouOp7j6xBd9cSulz_0uzalmvE?size=1024x768

https://photos-1.dropbox.com/thumb/AAAWpp0LMfRLiKYpTOZ39cAUjsqgJVAQLQ5iplpF7lDRJg/10292445/jpeg/32x32/2/1345755600/0/2/IMG_1086.JPG/6jGjOZkvgrpB38ONP9jUH-VQxP89MomYlVQedbB0KBs?size=1024x768

https://photos-1.dropbox.com/thumb/AABHY_BW3ejw4lQpNIG5PnKnk-m6ZoxzGNwtkkxzcwEfAw/10292445/jpeg/32x32/2/1345755600/0/2/IMG_1095.JPG/78LJhiC7TQlKuyEPQOr9RGAKhNaEZaOFexkL8zEMQU0?size=1 024x768

My favorite shot :)
https://photos-1.dropbox.com/thumb/AABRRxDLct3Mx9fen4OAN7D3kHVKQN1QMzpUaCsfFrqcbg/10292445/jpeg/32x32/2/1345755600/0/2/Takeoff_1100.jpg/Mt4N5rTA9uf04ed-p-6UGbMdq75XKrBc76xlwTRKZSc%2CwWJI8F__E0OdturaGgQDfo wGA-BMUda2C0zo9SdVjIc?size=1024x768

All photos courtesy of my mother!

[Dirthawking]

Nice! How was BJs noise level while hunting?

How did you manage to go through three different outfits in one hunt though! ?!?!?!? toungeout

[MyAbusa]

Great photos Ally! Thanks for sharing.

[goshawks00]

For some reason I can't see the photos.....

[PeteJ]

I can Barry so you might need to do a diagnostic on your computer....something got turned off.

[BestBeagler]

I saw them first and then they dissapeared on me.

[Ally]

Huh....bizarre. I'll mess with them more when I get home...

Oh and--he still made some noise out in the field but it was better than it is at home.

And I REALLY wish I could say I needed to pack multiple clothes because of all the rabbit blood but *sigh* not the case. 3 different days :P

[JRedig]

I saw them first and then they dissapeared on me.

Same!

[Ally]

Let's try this...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/AtWyomingfirstnight.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/AtWyomingwalkuphill.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/IMG_1042.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/IMG_1074.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/IMG_1080.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/IMG_1083.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/IMG_1086.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/IMG_1093.jpg

And my favorite...
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Takeoff_1100.jpg


Does that work better for everyone?

[goshawks00]

Got it Ally, he looks great that said, my goodness please do something about that transmitter, it's a disaster waiting to happen.............

[Ally]

I've never had a problem with a leg mount. That being said, I am just waiting for my tail clips to get here.

[BestBeagler]

I've never had a problem with a leg mount. That being said, I am just waiting for my tail clips to get here.

Ally, I want to put this delicately so I will try my best. Lots of times it's not if YOU'VE had any problems with a particular aspect with equipment or what have you, it's a matter of WHEN. Many falconers have gone on before and have made mistakes I personally like to learn from them. A few times old timers have told me about potential problems with clips and such, I smiled and nodded and ignored. Eventually what they said came true. Falconry is all about minimizing risk. How far we go in avoiding potential risk is I guess personal thing though.

Oh by the way, a Scout is more than a leg mount it's a "flying saucer" lol :). They are great transimitters but are pretty huge.

[allredone]

Looks like you're having fun and your bird is getting some good time on the wing Ally. I envy you the open country hawking.

Your bird is in good feather and I notice you are taking care to remove jesses before flying? Your pictures and your posts to me suggest that you seem to be a fairly conscientious falconer. I hope you can blow it off when some of us chime in like an older brother telling you which way is up.

Leg mount is probably a bit clunky but thos things work! And better to fly the bird than wait for just the right gear to show up. Besides, you're flying with one bell and no jesses? One can hardly fault you for too much gear.

Keep up the good work and posts.

[Ally]

You see correctly...I usually fly with two bells and a tail mount transmitter, but because the Scout is so big I nixed the bell on the same leg so I wasn't burdening him. I also have a merlin systems tranny that's much smaller, but is currently at merlin systems being repaired, so what can ya do.

I use field jesses with my RTH but there's no real need to have them on this guy...he rides the fist pretty well and he trades from a small piece or ungarnished lure to most of the meal on the fist, so I have lots of time to slip his jesses back in and clip him to the glove while he's eating.

Right now BJ is on a little bit of a vacation with another falconer. We are surrounded by fire up here and the smoke is horrendous...and it's the first week of school, so things are a little crazy.

I wish I had that country up here...that was 9 hours of driving :P I can get to similar country in about 3 hours though. Loved seeing the jacks and all the bunnies. Can't wait to start flying gamebirds though...been seeing huns and pheasants and it's got me itching to go.

[allredone]

Good for you. Sounds like you're off to a good start. I was just discussing a little vacation possibility for my new female. A friend has more time and game and might give her a good show while I take care of some business. Imprints are a handful. It may be a while before I make another. Right now the new Wire Jack puppy is more of a joy. It may be late season or early next year before they look much like a team. For now I'm just happy that the bird tolerates the puppy and other terriers.

Sorry to hear about the fires. Some of that this way too. Good luck rolling back into school.

[bobpayne]

For some reason I can't see the photos.....
interested in what you suggest? Tailmount neckmount backpack?

[goshawkr]

interested in what you suggest? Tailmount neckmount backpack?


WEll - you werent asking me, but my suggestion is in this order:
Backpack
Tailmount (mounted on a plectrum anchored to two feathers)
Tailmount (mounted on single feather)
neckmount (I have no experience with this though, and they freak me out)
.
.
leg mount
Notice how little I think of a leg mount. :D

The very last time I flew with bells mounted on the legs I put brand new bells on my redtail, and when I got home from an hours hunt I discovered both had been rendered non functional by big dents that were caused by impacts with the hawk's toes - presumably while pounding one or more of the bunnies we caught that day. That cured me of mounting anything but ID Bands and jesses on the feet.

Although, as Aaron pointed out, it is much better to have the bird in the air than sitting on its duff at home, and if the only thing keeping the bird in the air is a "less than your personal ideal way of mounting a transmitter", put the transmitter on and go hawking. Good for you Alley that your are out hawking, even if you have to use a bewit mounted transmitter to do it. :D

And of course, this is just my opinion. There are a thousand ways to skin a duck, and others may have other preferences.

[goshawks00]

Single deck feather tailmount w/ small transmitter. -0- failures in over 20 years. I have found one of the biggest mistakes those using tail feather mounts comes down to the installer not mounting them high enough on the shaft of the feather. They should right up next to where the feather meets the base of the tail

[Dirthawking]

Single deck feather tailmount w/ small transmitter. -0- failures in over 20 years. I have found one of the biggest mistakes those using tail feather mounts comes down to the installer not mounting them high enough on the shaft of the feather. They should right up next to where the feather meets the base of the tail

Or closing them to tight to the point of cracking the feather shaft.

[goshawks00]

I suppose that could happen...noidea. I did forgot to mention a drop of cyanoacrylate glue on a un-oiled deck.
The more i think about it, there are two issues to a pulled deck. One the transmitter sits to far down the shaft, which can cause a whipping action that loosens the socket. The other is a transmitter that sits to high due to a to high ferrule ( usually because of the dual deck/plenum arrangement), and a to big transmitter. The trans should fit high enough that it is protected and covered by the upper tail coverts. If you can see the trans when mounted, you got it right.
.02

[Ally]

I am personally a fan of the tail clip/tail mount transmitter on one deck. I only just started using one last year and it worked really well. Leg-mounted bells are something I've always used except on micros and I like being able to hear where my bird is without having to turn to get a visual--especially if we're on game and I need to be focused on working...just a personal preference of mine.

Neck mounts also freak me out a little...see lots of people using them with great success but they just make me uncomfortable.

Grouse season opens this Sunday and I've got a place to get on 'em where it's fairly open and you can sneak up so close on them you could kill them with a rock...also not as fast as huns. I think it will be a good intro for Jack on big game birds...might try the RT on them too just for fun. :P

[bobpayne]

Thanks Geoff, as always I'm interested in your thoughts concerning things about shortwings. Yes I was interested in Barry's insight, Answers all based on many years of personal experiences I'm sure. I flew a hen gos,(1993) using a tailmount, and was hunting mostly eastern cottontails. I had small issues with the tailmount, had the transmitter fall or torn off during tussles with rabbits a couple times, finally lost a deck to a fence, then cracked a deck while remounting it, switched to a leg mount. A couple of friends and I have used them on shrtwings without problem.

I have tried to use the neck mounted transmitter with a couple hawks and seem to have issues with rubberbands rotting off and the hawks lack of trust issue with my installing and removing it quickly and smoothly.

I currently have several hawks using backpacks but had planned to continue to use the leg mount with the goshawk. He is used to me installing it. I wonder about installing a backpack and switching out the transmitters batteries, being an imprint that I do not hood regularly, I worry every time I cast him.confusedd confusedd

Thanks all good stuff to think over!

Ally, beautiful hawk, enjoy the hunt!




WEll - you werent asking me, but my suggestion is in this order:
Backpack
Tailmount (mounted on a plectrum anchored to two feathers)
Tailmount (mounted on single feather)
neckmount (I have no experience with this though, and they freak me out)
.
.
leg mount
Notice how little I think of a leg mount. :D

The very last time I flew with bells mounted on the legs I put brand new bells on my redtail, and when I got home from an hours hunt I discovered both had been rendered non functional by big dents that were caused by impacts with the hawk's toes - presumably while pounding one or more of the bunnies we caught that day. That cured me of mounting anything but ID Bands and jesses on the feet.

Although, as Aaron pointed out, it is much better to have the bird in the air than sitting on its duff at home, and if the only thing keeping the bird in the air is a "less than your personal ideal way of mounting a transmitter", put the transmitter on and go hawking. Good for you Alley that your are out hawking, even if you have to use a bewit mounted transmitter to do it. :D

And of course, this is just my opinion. There are a thousand ways to skin a duck, and others may have other preferences.

[goshawks00]

Bob those are all common issues with folks that tail mount. Many years ago Luksander and I had a long conversation about this... The common fault was 1) trans fall off because of the spring tension on the transmitter spring clip is not strong enough... Remedy is to bend them out a bit to increase the pressure.2) feathers pulled out is "usually" the result of the trans clip mounted to far down the shaft. Remedy mount as high as possible directly to the feather shaft, right up next to the flesh (thumb) of the tail. In a previous post I meant to say if you can see the transmitter it is TO LOW/HIGH. (side note those mounting to tail feathers via a 'guitar pick' type platform are the most vulnerable to pull outs as they stick way up above the 'flow' of the back to tail transition) 3) cracked shafts while mounting... that's a 'duh' thing , we'll call it operator error:D.
As far as backpacks go the trans it attached to the backpack the same way as a tail mount. It comes off, you change the battery and reinstall again onto the backpack. At least I think that's how they work, never used one.
Sorry Ally for the rabbit trail....

[Ally]

Hey no worries guys, there won't be much for updates until I pick Jack back up in a week or two. The smoke is starting to clear up as they're getting fires under control but when you see a blood-red sun and moon you know it's nasty...

[goshawkr]

... The smoke is starting to clear up as they're getting fires under control but when you see a blood-red sun and moon you know it's nasty...

Yes, but the sunrises and sunsets are AMAZING.

[goshawkr]

As far as backpacks go the trans it attached to the backpack the same way as a tail mount. It comes off, you change the battery and reinstall again onto the backpack. At least I think that's how they work, never used one.


There are a few differnt types of backpack transmitters, but the ones commonly used for falconry work just like a tail mount. The tranmitter is actually just like a tail mount - with a spring clip that snaps into place.

To change batteries you just remove the transmitter while the hawk is on a perch or on the glove. Its not quite as easy as a tail mount, but close.

[BestBeagler]

Hows the gos doing any updates?

[Richard]

Thanks Geoff, as always I'm interested in your thoughts concerning things about shortwings. Yes I was interested in Barry's insight, Answers all based on many years of personal experiences I'm sure. I flew a hen gos,(1993) using a tailmount, and was hunting mostly eastern cottontails. I had small issues with the tailmount, had the transmitter fall or torn off during tussles with rabbits a couple times, finally lost a deck to a fence, then cracked a deck while remounting it, switched to a leg mount. A couple of friends and I have used them on shrtwings without problem.

I have tried to use the neck mounted transmitter with a couple hawks and seem to have issues with rubberbands rotting off and the hawks lack of trust issue with my installing and removing it quickly and smoothly.

I currently have several hawks using backpacks but had planned to continue to use the leg mount with the goshawk. He is used to me installing it. I wonder about installing a backpack and switching out the transmitters batteries, being an imprint that I do not hood regularly, I worry every time I cast him.confusedd confusedd

Thanks all good stuff to think over! Ally, beautiful hawk, enjoy the hunt!

Baby just lost a deck feather to a fence. While I hate losing the feather, I really wonder what would have happened had she been wearing the backpack... If she hit hard enough to rip out the feather, what would that kind of force do to something mounted as strongly as the backpack? Anybody had a bird with backpack mount do this?

[hcmcelroy]

Richard,

I have used the BP when Mark Williams started developing it before Marshall got into it and have not had this problem.
But I have pulled decks using the tail mount.

Harry.

[Ally]

Hey all,
Sorry for the long lack of updates, let me fill you all in on what's happened to the rotten little demon in the last month and a half or so...

I think, in my first post on this thread, I mentioned that things could very possibly go to hell in a handbasket...well, they kinda did.

He started to scream incessantly, he acted absolutely terrified of me and people in general, and would barely sit on the glove, and he mantled horribly. To me it seemed like he had gone off the deep end. I know accipiters all have a little bit of a screw loose, but this was more than I was prepared for.

I think I pushed him too hard and too fast, and dropped his weight too quickly in my eagerness to get him out and get him hunting. I should have gone much, much more slowly.

I've heard that sometimes the best thing to do if behavioral problems arise is to get them the heck out of the environment that's causing them. So, a friend of mine agreed to take him and keep him at his house for a while to see what happened.

That seemed to be the right remedy. Over the past weeks he has settled back down...he acts more like a passage bird than an imprint now, but he's quiet and focused on game. His recall to the lure is pretty good and he trades off of it quickly and easily. He's been served a few tossed birds and flies them down without a problem and is super snappy off the glove. He goes right to plucking and pretty eagerly trades off for an opened up quail. I'm down in Wyoming at the moment due to a very ill family member, but when I get back I'm going to get him on some upland birds and try some duck slips.

690g seems to be the right weight for him. I think as the temps keep dropping that will bump back up, but we've got ducks and upland game aplenty to get to work on. I gave him a few weeks to settle down before I started working with him, but once I started handling him again he was calm and comfortable with me. I'm very much looking forward to the season ahead!

He busted a couple of tailfeathers on a tossed pigeon but otherwise he's still in nice shape. As soon as I get back and we get back in the saddle I'll start a thread in the Short Wings forum to chronicle our hunting adventures. He doesn't seem afraid of chasing any sort of game...feather or fur he goes right after without hesitation. I think he's got the potential to be a great little gamehawk, no thanks to my fumbles and mess-ups. On the plus side, if I were to raise another (which I hope not to have to do for a very long time) I have a much better idea of what works and what doesn't. There's hope for us yet :)

[Ally]

Blackjack and I had our first official hunt today since everything went to hell.

Couldn't have been more proud of him. He rode the fist rock-steady, very upright, snaking his head and looking at everything that moved. His recall was flawless, to glove and lure, and he was silent in the field. The only thing that bothered him was when we were too close to a road, and he hates cars.

Our first duck slip wasn't ideal, on a fairly sizeable pond and a longish flight...he'd never seen a duck before. As soon as we came up over the bank he was off like a shot and had singled out a hen mallard, and was almost on her when she bailed back into the water. I thought he was going to go in after her. He buzzed another mallard on the water that also dove, and landed on the bank. Called him back with the lure, transferred him to a tidbit on the glove and went to the next spot.

Next spot was too close to the road...he bated away from the cars and missed the ducks, but we ran into a big covey of quail that we got a slip at. He charged into the brush after one, missed it, and was walking along the edge trying to get at them. He came right back out of it to the glove and we moved on.

Next spot, he tried to catch a muskrat and missed, and had a jogger come by that botched our duck flush.

Final spot, getting right to dark, and we were walking a ditch at a dairy, and with about 30 yards of ditch left, a lone hen mallard busts and climbs straight up. Blackjack shot off the fist, outclimbed her, tackled her and brought her to the ground. He got drug back into the ditch and I had to run over and fish him and the duck out. But he had a solid grip on it, and scored his first kill :)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/BJonduck1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/bjandallyduck2.jpg


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/AllyC2007/Blackjack%202012-2013/bjandallyduck.jpg


So proud of my little guy! We are ready to rock and roll now. :)

[Tasha55403]

clapppeacee Nice job! :)

[lewsouder]

Good job Ally! Now the fun begins...let the bodies hit the floor...

[colelkhunter]

You are living my dream Ally, but I am gaining on you quickly.

[hcmcelroy]

Ally,

His reactions to sitting the fist and coming to lure and fist are much more important than the 1st kill but what a thrill. He sounds like a rare one fast and eager!

Harry.

[Ally]

Blackjack scored his second duck, drake mallard, earlier this week!

He has also, to date, on his own initiative chased canadian geese more than once, and a blue heron.

Found a few ducks yesterday, the first one busted way ahead of us and Jack was after it like a shot, but it had too much of a head start. Had to walk out into the field a ways but he came rocketing back to the lure.

The next ditch I think I'm going to just have to give up on...it's in a park, and there are always ducks in it, but you can't get them off the water for anything, they're too used to people walking the path. Jack tried his best but right when he'd get ready to tag one they'd plow back into the water.

A friend pointed out to me yesterday that I live right next to the interstate, and that that might have contributed to Jack's intense dislike of motor vehicles. He might be on to something there...but as long as we're not next to a road, this bird is dynamite :)

Still fantastic field manners...super happy about that. Hopefully we'll come home with duck#3 today. peacee

[PeteJ]

Congrats on the ducks. As for the interstate being part of your birds' dislike of vehicles? Nah, not that likely. Many NA Goshawks are not thrilled by various things mechanical...even things they have never seen before (but may have heard). I had one female that absolutely freaked out over the sound of a diesel engine (that odd clickity clack sound they make), but also chain saws, hot air balloons, all kinds of things that are either scary looking or scary sounding. I swear she could see a school bus or a road grater on the horizon and it would freak her out (they were both the same color yellow/orange you see?). For a while, after I moved south, she would freak out when she saw a jet trail in the sky because where she had grown up, there just wasn't a lot of that going overhead, whereas here we're sort of along a major corridor for airports. My point is, sometimes its not what they've seen, its just as likely what they haven't seen.

[goshawkr]

Blackjack scored his second duck, drake mallard, earlier this week!

He has also, to date, on his own initiative chased canadian geese more than once, and a blue heron.

Found a few ducks yesterday, the first one busted way ahead of us and Jack was after it like a shot, but it had too much of a head start. Had to walk out into the field a ways but he came rocketing back to the lure.

The next ditch I think I'm going to just have to give up on...it's in a park, and there are always ducks in it, but you can't get them off the water for anything, they're too used to people walking the path. Jack tried his best but right when he'd get ready to tag one they'd plow back into the water.

A friend pointed out to me yesterday that I live right next to the interstate, and that that might have contributed to Jack's intense dislike of motor vehicles. He might be on to something there...but as long as we're not next to a road, this bird is dynamite :)

Still fantastic field manners...super happy about that. Hopefully we'll come home with duck#3 today. peacee

Congratulaitons.

Careful about the canadian geese - if his interest gets serious enough that he grabs one it could quickly turn fatal for him. Especially if comes to ground in the midst of a flock. They are very active flock defenders when on the ground, and he will have to fight off the entire bunch till you get there to help.

[skooky20]

how is blackjack doing