Imprinting on Another Species

[NWFlorida]

New here, so sorry if any of my questions sound stupid.

I understand that generally the term "imprint" refers to birds that have been imprinted on humans. Has anyone ever tried imprinting a bird to another species of bird in order to achieve specific behaviors (example: imprinting a goshawk to a Harris hawk to make it more sociable, share food, etc)? For example, by adding a goshawk egg to a Harris clutch so the bird doesn't know it's not its own offspring?

I ask because Apprentices can't have hawks that have been imprinted on humans, but I wonder if it would be possible to make a bird that friendly through other methods.

It works on other intelligent species, such as pigs and dogs, because many of their behaviors are learned rather than instinctual. And some other bird species do hide their eggs in other birds' nests so the other birds will raise their chicks for them. I think it could work with hawks as well, but I'm not an expert, obviously.

[kitana]

It's been done, but not for the reasons you mention. Mainly for creating hybrids of two different species down the line.

Sadly many apprentices and beginners mistake "imprint" as being friendly birds. It's absolutely not the case. Imprints simply don't fear humans, they are or aren't "friendly" depending on their individual inclinations, but imprinting them doesn't make them friendly. It can even make them extremely aggressive toward humans, as they are not inhibited by fear anymore. Hence the reason why apprentices shouldn't have access to imprinted birds early on...

[sharptail]

Is your question about cross imprinting inspired because you want to circumvent the law as it pertains to apprentices in your state? If any potential apprentice approched me with such a plan and wanted me to sponsor them, I would not be so inclined. What is not to your liking about the choices for raptors and their age limitations, for beginners where you live? Do you believe that no imprints for apprentices does not serve good purpose?

I personally see a lot of merit in apprentices trapping a passager for their first bird, and I know that many others agree.

[RT-Angel Fire]

Hey bud, I like this thread. I think it's an interesting concept but I agree with Jeff 100%. You wont regret trapping your first bird.

[Tom Smith]

Is your question about cross imprinting inspired because you want to circumvent the law as it pertains to apprentices in your state? If any potential apprentice approched me with such a plan and wanted me to sponsor them, I would not be so inclined. What is not to your liking about the choices for raptors and their age limitations, for beginners where you live? Do you believe that no imprints for apprentices does not serve good purpose?

I personally see a lot of merit in apprentices trapping a passager for their first bird, and I know that many others agree.

I agree

[NWFlorida]

It's been done, but not for the reasons you mention. Mainly for creating hybrids of two different species down the line.

Sadly many apprentices and beginners mistake "imprint" as being friendly birds. It's absolutely not the case. Imprints simply don't fear humans, they are or aren't "friendly" depending on their individual inclinations, but imprinting them doesn't make them friendly. It can even make them extremely aggressive toward humans, as they are not inhibited by fear anymore. Hence the reason why apprentices shouldn't have access to imprinted birds early on...

I see. So in that case it would be sexual imprinting. I understand many people like the novelty of hybrid animals but to me that just seems like a waste. From what I understand, the offspring are generally infertile?

As far as the lack of fear part, I think I understand a lot better. I also had the misimpression that it made the bird friendly. Thanks for clearing that up!


Is your question about cross imprinting inspired because you want to circumvent the law as it pertains to apprentices in your state? If any potential apprentice approched me with such a plan and wanted me to sponsor them, I would not be so inclined. What is not to your liking about the choices for raptors and their age limitations, for beginners where you live? Do you believe that no imprints for apprentices does not serve good purpose?

I personally see a lot of merit in apprentices trapping a passager for their first bird, and I know that many others agree.
I have no interest in circumventing any laws. I simply want to have a bird that's as manageable as possible. Both the Harris and the Gos are interesting to me because the Harris is highly social and the Goshawk has a really wide range of prey items. I just wanted to see if I could get both out of one bird.

[colelkhunter]

I have no interest in circumventing any laws. I simply want to have a bird that's as manageable as possible. Both the Harris and the Gos are interesting to me because the Harris is highly social and the Goshawk has a really wide range of prey items. I just wanted to see if I could get both out of one bird.

Not trying to be disrespectful here, I think this is inexperience talking. You can take a wide range of prey items with a regular old redtail hawk. Take the time and effort and they are capable of taking anything you can think of.

[FredFogg]

Both the Harris and the Gos are interesting to me because the Harris is highly social and the Goshawk has a really wide range of prey items. I just wanted to see if I could get both out of one bird.

The Harris has just a wide range of prey items as the goshawk. Living in Florida and with the prey base you have there and being that it would be your first bird, you would be better off with a red-tail or a Harris, not a goshawk. You have the rest of your life to fly any other type of bird. Learn a little and get some experience and then try different birds if you like.

[NWFlorida]

The Harris has just a wide range of prey items as the goshawk. Living in Florida and with the prey base you have there and being that it would be your first bird, you would be better off with a red-tail or a Harris, not a goshawk. You have the rest of your life to fly any other type of bird. Learn a little and get some experience and then try different birds if you like.

Yeah, the more I research the more I like the Harris. I don't know if it would be kinda mean to fly it by itself though. Seems kind of like hunting a wolf without its pack. Are they okay hunting by themselves? I mean I assume I won't be doing absolutely every hunt with my sponsor right? Or will I be expected to?

[FredFogg]

Yeah, the more I research the more I like the Harris. I don't know if it would be kinda mean to fly it by itself though. Seems kind of like hunting a wolf without its pack. Are they okay hunting by themselves? I mean I assume I won't be doing absolutely every hunt with my sponsor right? Or will I be expected to?

Ahhh grasshopper, you have lots to learn! LOL Just keep reading all the threads on here and many of your questions will be answered before you even ask.

And yes, they hunt fine by themselves. Shortly before the earth cooled, when I was an apprentice, I only hunted with my sponsor a few times my first year, so no, you won't be hunting with your sponsor all the time. Of course, that is totally up to your sponsor, so you never know.

[sharptail]

Hi Coral,
Sorry if I was offensive. There is a difference in the ways that a lot of younger falconers than myself and I believe in doing things. I believe that raptors should teach new falconers about the ways of nature.

Another popular idea in this modern age is that you can build a hawk from the ground up and add features that you like, similar to ordering extras on a new car. In some cases this has worked well, but in my opinion it should not be for apprentices. I think that they should start from the baseline that nature is, and at least know what they are deviating from, before trying to improve on it.

In any case it is not up to me. You and your sponsor will be the ones making those decisions. It is great to see renewed interest in this ancient sport and I wish you all of the best in it.

[hcmcelroy]

Coral,
Are you asking about a domestically bred or passage HH? Socalizing the two is quite different.
Good to have you on here and the fact that you are concerned about socializing...

Harry.

[NWFlorida]

Coral,
Are you asking about a domestically bred or passage HH? Socalizing the two is quite different.
Good to have you on here and the fact that you are concerned about socializing...

Harry.

Sorry for the delayed response, guys. I was counciling 3rd and 4th graders this week at camp.

I was thinking domestically bred. So far everything I've read about falconry points to it being beneficial even for wild birds (when you take nestlings, the other chicks have better survival rates, when you catch adults, the bird lives longer, etc) but I'm still more comfortable with a bred animal. Plus, it would be really hard to get a wild Harris in Florida!

Btw, do you still call them "passage" birds even though they don't migrate?

My concern about socializing stems from my first real pet (as in, my mom didn't take care of it for me), an ill-behaved green iguana. I don't know why it was so aggressive, because where I live in the panhandle it gets too cold for it to have been wild-caught. But anyway, it was super-mean and the pet store didn't know what to do with it, so of course my mom got it for me. XD I dunno why she thought that was good idea since I was so young. Anyway, being a small child (I wanted to name it "Jurassic Park") it only took one whip from that tail to not want to get hit again, but I was still enthusiastic about the lizard so my solution was to go put on a winter jacket! It was so thick the lizard could whip and whip and it wouldn't matter. Everyone was really impressed at my resourcefulness. :) But yeah, that experience taught me that the first thing you want to do is get it to like you. It didn't take me very long as a kid to tame that thing when I was forcing it to let me hold it every day.

[Joan Marie]

Ahhh grasshopper, you have lots to learn! LOL Just keep reading all the threads on here and many of your questions will be answered before you even ask.

And yes, they hunt fine by themselves. Shortly before the earth cooled, when I was an apprentice, I only hunted with my sponsor a few times my first year, so no, you won't be hunting with your sponsor all the time. Of course, that is totally up to your sponsor, so you never know.

You're cracking me up over here Fred...shortly before the earth cooled....

OMG IT'S THE BLIMMEY TRUTH! Coral! I'm walkin' hand in hand wit ya kid!! Ain't it great??? Keep up the head of steam, it's all here, er, most of it anyway. Biggest problem and frustration I have these days is my dang questions timeout the message board search engine. frus)

[bobpayne]

Great questions, a Harris is a great choice fora hunting partner, Ive had mine for eight seaons through Coulsons they make outstanding hawks. What otters posted I agree I lovepassage hawks. and after getting to know Fred you will know why his sponsor only invited him Hawking occasionally sorry Fred Fred if I
Let the cat from the bag,

[FredFogg]

and after getting to know Fred you will know why his sponsor only invited him Hawking occasionally sorry Fred Fred if I
Let the cat from the bag,

Wow, was that the reason! Gee and I thought he liked me! LOL toungeout :D

[MomoHawk]

Why are you more comfortable with a captive bred bird? confusedd

[NWFlorida]

Why are you more comfortable with a captive bred bird? confusedd

It's an illogical emotional reaction. *shrug* I'd feel a little bad for taking anything out of the wild where it "belongs". I'd get over it, though. I know it's not bad for them the way it would be bad to take some other species out of the wild. I was just saying.

Also, if anyone is interested, these folks did something similar to what I mentioned, training Gyrfalcons with Harrises:

http://www.falconscanada.com/site/Falcon_and_Harris_Hawk.html

[FredFogg]

It's an illogical emotional reaction. *shrug* I'd feel a little bad for taking anything out of the wild where it "belongs". I'd get over it, though. I know it's not bad for them the way it would be bad to take some other species out of the wild. I was just saying.



You do realize that falconers are only allowed to take first year birds out of the wild and that 70 percent and higher of first year birds don't make it in the wild. So the likely hood of you trapping a bird that wouldn't have made it, getting it to kill regularly and eventually releasing it into the wild again gives it a better chance of survival than if you hadn't taken it from the wild.

[NWFlorida]

You do realize that falconers are only allowed to take first year birds out of the wild and that 70 percent and higher of first year birds don't make it in the wild. So the likely hood of you trapping a bird that wouldn't have made it, getting it to kill regularly and eventually releasing it into the wild again gives it a better chance of survival than if you hadn't taken it from the wild.

Yeah, I know. That's why I specified that the reaction is illogical. All the data I have suggests that falconry is good for the birds. Like I said, illogical-emotional. At the end of the day, I wouldn't feel too bad about it.

[Tom Smith]

Yeah, I know. That's why I specified that the reaction is illogical. All the data I have suggests that falconry is good for the birds. Like I said, illogical-emotional. At the end of the day, I wouldn't feel too bad about it.

Assuming you actually want the raptor for hunting which the base core defintion of falconry and in the new federal regulations actually hunting with your raptor is required as part of your conditions to fulfill the apprenticeship process. With your seeming reluctance to take things out of the wild, do you also feel removing animals that are your quarry would be an emotional strain on you as well.

Perhaps you should give up the idea of becoming a falconer and get into some other raptor oriented activity like rehabbing.

Many falconers that want to feel a real connection with the wild world don't think in terms of removing things from the wild, they think in terms entering the wild world to become part of it and understand it for what it is.

[anasari]

amennn
Assuming you actually want the raptor for hunting which the base core defintion of falconry and in the new federal regulations actually hunting with your raptor is required as part of your conditions to fulfill the apprenticeship process. With your seeming reluctance to take things out of the wild, do you also feel removing animals that are your quarry would be an emotional strain on you as well.

Perhaps you should give up the idea of becoming a falconer and get into some other raptor oriented activity like rehabbing.

Many falconers that want to feel a real connection with the wild world don't think in terms of removing things from the wild, they think in terms entering the wild world to become part of it and understand it for what it is.

[Dirthawking]

Assuming you actually want the raptor for hunting which the base core defintion of falconry and in the new federal regulations actually hunting with your raptor is required as part of your conditions to fulfill the apprenticeship process. With your seeming reluctance to take things out of the wild, do you also feel removing animals that are your quarry would be an emotional strain on you as well.

Perhaps you should give up the idea of becoming a falconer and get into some other raptor oriented activity like rehabbing.

Many falconers that want to feel a real connection with the wild world don't think in terms of removing things from the wild, they think in terms entering the wild world to become part of it and understand it for what it is.
peacee

[anasari]

I did'nt put what I was thinking as I posted the quote by Tom, But ,,, since I've been Learning Falconry,,, and before starting My personal "Hands on training"Apprenticeship , I met a few guys who said they were Falconers BUT their birds had'nt caught any game, I stated that I thought Falconry was Hunting with a trained Raptor getting quarry that we humans can eat, one of them commented to me that they just like watching the bird fly & even if it just caught a mouse (does'nt that sound Yummy!confusedd) or flys to the fist for a tidbit it's alright with them. I asked a question Do you think the Hawk needs you to catch a mouse, & have you ever ate a mouse ? And calling a Hawk to the fist constantly while in the field" Hunting", teaches the bird to hunt your glove instead of game. And over the years while Hanging out with Falconers whose Hawks/Falcons consistently catch game, I've learned that some people ARE Falconers & some people are pet keepers which that's not Falconry.

[FredFogg]

Assuming you actually want the raptor for hunting which the base core defintion of falconry and in the new federal regulations actually hunting with your raptor is required as part of your conditions to fulfill the apprenticeship process. With your seeming reluctance to take things out of the wild, do you also feel removing animals that are your quarry would be an emotional strain on you as well.

Perhaps you should give up the idea of becoming a falconer and get into some other raptor oriented activity like rehabbing.

Many falconers that want to feel a real connection with the wild world don't think in terms of removing things from the wild, they think in terms entering the wild world to become part of it and understand it for what it is.

Worded much better than I could ever come up with!!!! clappclappclapp

[hcmcelroy]

Coral,

Good to see you are still with us but may I ask if you are interested in taking game with a hawk? As far as we can tell that is their mission on this earth.
We don't trap adults because they are said to be the breeding stock. But Harris's that are on the wing are called passage even thou they don't migrate because we're probably not smart enough to figure another label for them. On the other hand they do float about into uncharted territory and some researchers wonder if they are migrating. Or is that like the so called partial albino?
Good show in taming your iguana. Do you still have it?
Socializing the domestically raised Harris's requires some time and effort...I'll spare you the details for now.

Harry.

[coopershawk]

Birds of prey like to hunt and kill. I imagine many behavioral problems can be solved with this simple thought in mind. A redtail can be as tame as a dog, provided you hunt with it at every given opportunity. They will develop a deep relationship, and one easily forged, if you let them do what they need to do: population control. Get your hands red. That is essentially what it's about.