High Level tidbiting

[Hawkingcolorado]

My new Aplomado was terrified of the hood because I had to hood her and crop tube her with meds. I had no time to try and introduce the hood properly....Two days of doing the HLT and I can get the hood on her for a second..amazing!....I'm talking about "total freak out" if she even saw a hood from 5 feet away.....
Highly recommend trying it if you have trouble hooding.. I am a clumsy "hooder" and if I can do it...Tim

[kurtp]

Still early on, but I have had similar incredibly good results with the HLT technique with my G/P tiercel.

[Tim Jessell]

My new Aplomado was terrified of the hood because I had to hood her and crop tube her with meds. I had no time to try and introduce the hood properly....Two days of doing the HLT and I can get the hood on her for a second..amazing!....I'm talking about "total freak out" if she even saw a hood from 5 feet away.....
Highly recommend trying it if you have trouble hooding.. I am a clumsy "hooder" and if I can do it...Tim

Was watching your HLT thread, Tim, as it came up in my search, hoping for more info... thank goodness for google.

No work today (but did HLT Blue once, after I took his hood off, cue, after weighing him this morning). The two birds are getting reminded how great food is after being fed well last 3 daily kite sessions - weight creeping. They can still put on weight pretty quick as their body fat to muscle ratio is not close to where it needs to be. When Blue is there, his furnace runs extremely hot. G/P hybrids will kick that gyr snake like metabolism when needed.

[katzenjammer360]

Does HLT work as well with Red-Tails or other birds that are footy for food? Or does it promote footing at your hands for the food? That's the only worry I and a friend of mine have.

[mcogar88]

I'm with katzenjammer360. I would love to try HLT but my bird is quick to associate my hand with food. Has anyone tried this on a bird that is like that.

[Tim Jessell]

You come in high(they look up to feed), not low, as falconers are used to on glove, and w/ a redtail, you have a firm grip on jesses(and length)!

[katzenjammer360]

The issue I'm worried about is eventual association of my hand as food. So provoking grabbing at my free hand when I'm messing with jesses, etc. Not necessarily being worried about getting footed while I'm trying to do the high level tidbitting. I'm more concerned with down the road after using this technique. I've only seen information about it being applied with falcons, never buteos.

[Tim Jessell]

Ya got me there...? Others may have experience.
Right now my falcon seems to wake up in a new world everyday. Really testing me and himself... and now maybe even health issues possibly as he's just not acting like he should (yes I said that w/a straight face ;)) in certain situations?

[Breeze]

The issue I'm worried about is eventual association of my hand as food. So provoking grabbing at my free hand when I'm messing with jesses, etc. Not necessarily being worried about getting footed while I'm trying to do the high level tidbitting. I'm more concerned with down the road after using this technique. I've only seen information about it being applied with falcons, never buteos.

My experience with this is extremely limited - just one red-tail - but I've done high level tidbitting a great deal with Breeze, with good success and nothing I consider to be a problem. Have control of his jesses, so he can't foot during the HLT sessions. Naturally he now knows, that at least sometimes, food comes from the right hand. On occasion, I see him studying my right hand with great interest. When he does I simply show him both sides of the hand, fingers spread - so he is aware nothing is there. He immediately loses interest in the hand and we go on with whatever it is that we were doing.

On THIS bird, SO FAR, we have had no overlapping issues due to using the HLT techniques. Results for other folks might be entirely different.

[goshawkr]

"High Level Tidbitting" is not a training technique. Its a method of delivering tidbits used in more generic positive reinforcement training methods. Jim Nelson who coined the term and claimed ownership of the idea and championed it was using it with Operant Conditioning.

Jim wasn't the first with the idea - many others have come up with it on their own (myself included) but he was the one to discuss it in depth and coin a term for it.

Many have asked will it work on "footy prone birds?" Yes it will. Actually, the redtails that have been pointed at as being "nasty footers" are sweethearts compared to imprint accipiters. At least every redtail I had was a sweetheart compared to most of the imprint accipiters I have had.

The magic behind brining the tidbit in from above is that it triggers the very passive food begging behaviors that young raptors express towards their parents who are passing a bite of food in to them in their beak. These food begging behaviors remain active throughout the life of a hawk, even though they are not normally used beyond dispersing from their parents.

While they are in this passive mode, they will not fight for food, but they may bit at it aggressively. There is also the possibility that they will reach for the food before it gets over their head. This is where its important to keep control of the jesses.

One key thing to bear in mind, even with HLT as a delivery method for tidbits is that it is important to train for manners. If your hawk is behaving well, give it the tidbit. If its being impatient or otherwise being a #@$%@#$%, wait it out and give the tidbit when it is showing some appropriate manners.

I have been handing tidbits to all my hawks with my bare hands for my entire 19 year falconry career. This has included 4 passage redtails, a Harris, and many imprint goshawks. I wont say its simple to do, but if someone as bungling as I am can pull it off, you can too.

Or you can deliver tidbits another way, like toss them on the floor and have the hawk go down and get them.

[JRedig]

"High Level Tidbitting" is not a training technique. Its a method of delivering tidbits used in more generic positive reinforcement training methods. Jim Nelson who coined the term and claimed ownership of the idea and championed it was using it with Operant Conditioning.

Jim wasn't the first with the idea - many others have come up with it on their own (myself included) but he was the one to discuss it in depth and coin a term for it.

Many have asked will it work on "footy prone birds?" Yes it will. Actually, the redtails that have been pointed at as being "nasty footers" are sweethearts compared to imprint accipiters. At least every redtail I had was a sweetheart compared to most of the imprint accipiters I have had.

The magic behind brining the tidbit in from above is that it triggers the very passive food begging behaviors that young raptors express towards their parents who are passing a bite of food in to them in their beak. These food begging behaviors remain active throughout the life of a hawk, even though they are not normally used beyond dispersing from their parents.

While they are in this passive mode, they will not fight for food, but they may bit at it aggressively. There is also the possibility that they will reach for the food before it gets over their head. This is where its important to keep control of the jesses.

One key thing to bear in mind, even with HLT as a delivery method for tidbits is that it is important to train for manners. If your hawk is behaving well, give it the tidbit. If its being impatient or otherwise being a #@$%@#$%, wait it out and give the tidbit when it is showing some appropriate manners.

I have been handing tidbits to all my hawks with my bare hands for my entire 19 year falconry career. This has included 4 passage redtails, a Harris, and many imprint goshawks. I wont say its simple to do, but if someone as bungling as I am can pull it off, you can too.

Or you can deliver tidbits another way, like toss them on the floor and have the hawk go down and get them.

I have been waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiting for you to find this thread Geoff...lol! This is what, the 3rd or 4th time you've given a response like this? You should really just save it so you can copy and paste!:D

[goshawkr]

The issue I'm worried about is eventual association of my hand as food. So provoking grabbing at my free hand when I'm messing with jesses, etc. Not necessarily being worried about getting footed while I'm trying to do the high level tidbitting. I'm more concerned with down the road after using this technique. I've only seen information about it being applied with falcons, never buteos.

I have never had a case of a hawk that I have hand fed associate my hand with food except when it had an expectation of being handed food, such as when I give the Conditioned Reinforcer.

Its not like the hawk suddenly thinks that your hand is food because you hand it tidbits. Although I have had some hawks, including the imprint female goshawk I am working with now, who didn't bother to discern between when the tidbit in fingers ended and my finger began. But even in these cases, I never need to worry about them just going for my hand.

[goshawkr]

I have been waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiting for you to find this thread Geoff...lol! This is what, the 3rd or 4th time you've given a response like this? You should really just save it so you can copy and paste!:D


You know Jeff, that's why it took me so long to respond. I kept thinkin - do I really need to go through this again?!?

Copy paste - what a grand idea!! You'd think a pro-fissional computer guy could come up with a way to do that, wouldn't you?

[Mandragen]

I was waiting for someone to say it, thanks Geoff. If you are uncomfortable with an individual, then you will make the whole thing uncomfortable. If you think you have a footy bird and don't know how to control that, just use some other method of delivering the food. place it on a surface or use tongs, just make sure you can deliver it quickly and effectively.

[goshawkr]

I was waiting for someone to say it, thanks Geoff. If you are uncomfortable with an individual, then you will make the whole thing uncomfortable. If you think you have a footy bird and don't know how to control that, just use some other method of delivering the food. place it on a surface or use tongs, just make sure you can deliver it quickly and effectively.

That's funny... I was waiting for someone else to say it.

[hcmcelroy]

Geoff,

Good coverage of the system. Nelson has demonstrated the system to me several times during visits and every time he repeats, "Control the jesses"

No question it is a good system whoever came up with it...

Harry.

[goshawkr]

Good coverage of the system. Nelson has demonstrated the system to me several times during visits and every time he repeats, "Control the jesses"


Harry,

That part just cant be repeated enough.

Even if the other behavioral elements were not going on, simply holding onto the jesses and bringing the food in from above will prevent footing while handing tidbits.

There is a thousand ways to skin a cat, as the saying goes though. While Jim's trick is a good one, its just one among many for giving tidbits. Its my usual one, but sometimes I get lazy or impatient and use others.