Question on feeding

[Nimure]

This is just me being curious (as I haven't even had a bird yet).

My CHC study guide makes a big deal about feeding and imprints. They recommend that an imprint never associate the falconer with food, and even suggest going to lengths like having another person take the bird out of the room while you put food in the bird's current living space.

However, I've noticed on here that some folks will hand feed eyasses. Is this just personal preference? Does it depend on the species? Or is it based on the individual personality of the bird? If so, how do you judge whether or not you can hand feed an eyass?

I'm just confused as to how folks can very plainly feed eyasses from their fingers and not end up with a screamer, when everything I've read has suggested that is exactly what will happen.

[FredFogg]

Read this thread, it probably will answer a lot of your questions!

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=17890

[Nimure]

Thanks Fred. That sort of helped, but I'm still confused. :)

I'm also not really familiar with what most people imprint. Obviously accipiters, and some falcons. Do folks imprint Harris hawks?

Obviously individual personalities play a big role, but what about species? Is one more likely to hand feed an accipiter than a falcon? Why?

It seems like sometimes it works okay, and sometimes it doesn't. What is the difference in hand feeding that makes one bird great and another a screamer?

[colelkhunter]

[QUOTE=Nimure;305702

It seems like sometimes it works okay, and sometimes it doesn't. What is the difference in hand feeding that makes one bird great and another a screamer?[/QUOTE]


Concentrate on what you need now. If you are an apprentice you will not have an imprint as the birds you will be working with will be passage and way past the point of imprinting.

To answer you question, kind of, no one KNOWS for sure what does or does not produce a good imprint. Some, including myself, have had good imprints and horrible ones. A falconer can use the same methods to imprint two birds and have two completely different outcomes. Imprinting is as much luck and experience as it is skill or longevity. It is also a huge undertaking to explain it with no frame of reference. There are tons of threads here on imprinting, read all of them. By that time you will know what we all know, not much.

[Nimure]

Okay. That essentially answers my questions. :) I wasn't sure if it was luck, guessing, or some little known trade secret. Lol.

It seems like a lot of folks hand feed accipiters? Are they less likely to have problems than other birds? Or is this just a randomly preferred bird to imprint?

And yeah, as someone who just took the test and doesn't have a sponsor I don't -need- to know any of this stuff. That doesn't mean I'm not going to ask questions because I'm not there yet though. I like to learn, and as someone who graduated with a degree in animal behavior, the imprint process fascinates me.

I'm not wanting to learn this stuff because I intend to put it to use any time soon. I'm simply curious. And I don't see that there is any harm in asking questions and learning now. Just because it isn't critical to my current stage in life doesn't mean I should ignore it all and remain ignorant until it does matter.

Again, I like to learn and am simply fascinated by the imprint process. I don't see any harm in that as long as I stick with my current level limitations (apprentice) when practicing falconry.

[goshawkr]

It seems like a lot of folks hand feed accipiters? Are they less likely to have problems than other birds? Or is this just a randomly preferred bird to imprint?

About 20+ years ago a guy pushed forward a theory that food association was the root of all evil in accipiters. This notion has caught on extremely strongly, to the point of being considered accepted doctrine by some. He didn't just pull his ideas out of thin air, there were many in his circle who had advocated these methods of avoiding food association. One of the main reasons these ideas were so well accepted was because he wrote up a step by step approach using his ideas and many who had no prior experience with accipiters had good success with them. Those who had failures with his methods were quietly swept under the carpet or written off as not having been true followers.

There are a few people who hand feed imprint accipiters, but we are largely regarded as heretics. I don't know what the numbers really are, but in my personal experience those of us that hand feed are about 15% compared to those who totally or largely try to avoid food association.

[colelkhunter]

Lindsay,

I wasn't trying to discourage you from learning about imprinting raptors. Just trying to parlay that there are several entire schools of thought on the subject. It really can't be described in a post here but people have tried.:D

Imprinting any raptor takes knowledge and honestly the only way to get it is to imprint a bird. Read all that you can, talk to as many folks as you can who have done it successfully and be prepared to modify your methods nearly daily. Most who go down this road ruin a couple birds before you learn what not to do unfortunately. These are just the facts. Small mistakes in the rearing process with young birds become profound defects in the bird in short order if not corrected. Experience comes into play here to notice a problem and correct it before it becomes an issue later. I wish I could say there was a definitive method but there just isn't.

[hcmcelroy]

Almost no one imprints the Harris's. If imprinted their complex social inclinations lead to problems. Recently a local falconer had aggression problems (attacking other HHs while hunting) with a domestically raised HH that had been kept with sibling over 20 weeks.

Harry.

[Nimure]

I wasn't trying to discourage you from learning about imprinting raptors. Just trying to parlay that there are several entire schools of thought on the subject. It really can't be described in a post here but people have tried.

Okay. XD I mainly wanted to stress that just because I'm asking, doesn't mean I'm planning to run out and illegally imprint an eyass. I'm just really curious about the imprint process as it's something that's intrigued me since before I know of falconry.

However, I was super tired last night, so I can't claim my post was straightforward. :)

So it's all kinda sheer dumb luck then? Sometimes it works okay, and sometimes it doesn't? What happens to birds that come out wrong and/or aggressive? Do they get shuffled off somewhere? Released?

No one imprints Harris hawks? I would have figured with their social structure, it would work out better than with more comptetative, solitary birds.

What about peregrines? Can you imprint them?

[colelkhunter]

Technically you can imprint any raptor if taken at a young age. Most who imprint birds do so with accipiters and falcons. Imprinting accipiters is more oriented towards getting a bird that is not as skittish around humans,trains,noises and pretty much everything else. With an imprint, you get to control what the bird is exposed to and if you do your job correctly there is little that the bird will be afraid of or react poorly to. Birds are also imprinted for breeding purposes so that they see humans as breeding partners. This is a whole other can of beans.

Hawks are generally not imprinted. HH's in particular are super social. They also are very adaptive and require little more than being exposed to something to become accustomed to it. No real reason to imprint one other than breeding some sort of hybrid with them.

Falcons are the same. Captive bred falcons are sometimes imprinted because the federal law states that if a captive bred falcon in a hybrid of two or more falcons it must be imprinted or sterilized. Imprinting is just easier. Some prefer imprint falcons for the same reason mentioned earlier with accipiters. It makes for a falcon that isn't scard or bothered by much. Keep in mind that with any imprint there is always the possibility of a bad imprint. Thus becoming a screaming idiot or worse.

What do people do when they ruin a bird? Hopefully they try to fix them. Incrementally it is possible to resolve the issues created with a bad imprint, most of the time. Some take the time, some do not. Imprinting is a quadruple edged sword that can cut you without you even knowing it.

[hcmcelroy]

If the Harris's is imprinted to man and not properly imprinted to its kin it is normally aggressive to other HHs in the field. It may also attack dogs, cats, pigs, other falconers, children, etc. If flown alone it may be ok for years but as it ages many also become increasingly aggressive to people.

But like falconry in general there are all sorts of exceptions. Recently a fellow called to tell me he specialized in imprinted HHs and did not mind the aggression. Of course these hawks live some 30-35 years so caution is in order.

Harry.

[Nimure]

Okay. Cool. Thank you guys for the answers. :)

I'm glad to know that imprints can be fixed. As a pre-apprentice or whatever the term is, I don't know much about the imprinting process, so I wasn't sure how many of the be supra could really be modified.

I want to write some more in response, but I'm out of town and staying with guests. But you all certainly gave me a lot to think on and I feel I at least know more than I did. ^^

[Ally]

Lindsay it's great to be curious :) Right on.
Everyone else has pretty much summed it up.

[Richard]

Concentrate on what you need now. If you are an apprentice you will not have an imprint as the birds you will be working with will be passage and way past the point of imprinting.

Actually, with the new regs an apprentice in many states can now start out with an imprint captive bred bird. It's best not to, but it is available...

Red tails and Harris hawks are not good birds to imprint. Even some really early trapped "passage" RTs become very aggressive and dangerous. Harris hawks are best kept with parents and siblings for up to 16 weeks to have the used to the social life. If trapping a wild HH, it is best to go for older birds rather than the real young ones for the same reason.

I've imprinted many accipiters over the past 35-40 years and just about all of them turned out great. The few with problems required some corrective training and turned into great birds also. To read about my current challenge, go to "Imprint ID" subject line below.

[goshawkr]

Actually, with the new regs an apprentice in many states can now start out with an imprint captive bred bird. It's best not to, but it is available...

If that is the case, then somethin slipped through the cracks. In the section of the federal language on apprentice falconers is this:


50 CFR 21.29 (c) (2) (i) (I) You may not possess a bird that is imprinted on humans.

That's something I would like to see changed because its vague and silly, but its in there. I don't think its generally a good idea for a green apprentice to raise an imprint, but I suppose with the right guidance it would not be a big deal. It also wouldn't be a big deal in the case of the apprentice with several years under their belt - like a kid that started at 12 and still wasn't old enough to be a general.

Where I think this is really silly is in the case of a many times intermewed adult bird. The authorities wont be able to tell whether its an imprint or not, so how can this be enforced? Behaviorally, a mature polished game hawk is not going to be a problem to give to an apprentice, so why prevent it?

The same goes for the regulation preventing an apprentice from possessing a hawk taken from the wild as a nestling. Its not something I would argue against early in that hawks career, but when they are a polished game hawk, why not let an apprentice have it. In this case, its pretty easy to determine and enforce because there would be, in theory, a 3-186a paperwork trail determining when the bird was first taken.