Ringing flights through O/C

[Gerkin]

I use shaping and chaining techniques for all my falconry training. I used to think that the Kings, Queens, and Emperors flights were the hardest to train. By using these techniques any falcon can be taught to mount or ring its quarry (houbara, crane, heron, crow, seagull, and skylark) with simple backyard training!

I, and indeed others would appreciate your starting a thread on this.

All of my ringing flights have very much been dictated by fitness, geography, point of slip and most important... limited quarry!
obviously made possible with some basic target recognition training,
I would love to hear more about what your comment alluded too.

[barbedraptor]

Let me organize my thoughts and post details tomorrow. Tonight I just want to set the stage. How to Teach Animals by Skinner in the 1951 December Scientific America and The Art of Falconry by Fredrick II tell most of the story. I simply teach the falcon to put quarry to ground. Merlins will loss their quarry in prairie dog holes or cover most of the time. But of course they are rewarded for ringing high beside their quarry and forcing it to stoop to cover. More about training technique tomorrow. Jim Fustos

[barbedraptor]

Ringing Flights-- Falcons can physically easily out fly all the traditionally pursued quarry such as houbara, crane, heron, crow, rook, seagull and skylark. It is the falconer's job to completely WED the falcon to the quarry and HABITUATE the desired flight. When chaining behaviors together remember to train and shape the last behavior first. Training Sequence: 1. Thoroughly wed falcon to quarry. Merlin plucks and eats about 10 dead English sparrows. 2. Whistle(CR) means fly back to fist. Train falcon to come to fist for food. 3. Habituate mini flights "to ground" in the backyard. Emperor Fredrick II used shaping and chaining techniques 750 years ago. Many teaching methods have hidden built-in CR's present in them. But now we know to make them obvious and instant. You can probably think of better backyard "to ground" methods then I have. Here are 3 of mine. 3 Mini Training Flights: I. Merlin-- Tie dead English sparrow lure to a circular string that runs through a 2 inch diameter PVC pipe. Stand about 10 feet away from the lure, unhood merlin, twitch lure, merlin catches lure, transfer to fist meal and feed up. Fast Forward: the next day merlin chases lure as you pull it into the pipe "to ground" and loses it. After each "to ground" whistle(CR), falcon flies to fist, pull lure out of pipe and she chases it again. Do 3 to 5 "to ground" each day for about 20 days. That is over 60 "to grounds". I will finish post tomorrow.

[barbedraptor]

II. Crow Hawking(mini): Using a dead frozen crow lure, suspend it about 10 feet off the ground. From about 100 feet away unhood the falcon and let her fly and bind to the frozen lure. Whistle(CR) and lower the falcon and lure to the ground. The falcon gives up the frozen lure and flies to the fist for food. Hood her and do it again. Do 3 to 5 "to ground" for 10 days. That is over 30 "to ground". III. Continue Backyard Training: Have an assistant twirl the frozen crow lure as you unhood the falcon from about 300 feet away. The assistant stoops the falcon once to the lure and then hides it under her coat. Whistle(CR) and have the falcon fly back to the fist for a tidbit. Hood and do again 3 to 5 times per session/day for about 10 days. Now the crow falcon has experienced over a total of 60 "to ground" trials. 4. Exercise: The merlin is trained in the morning and stooped to lure or jump-ups in the evening. Every third training day the crow falcon is stooped to the tennis ball lure up to 100 times or 100 to 200 jump-ups. 5. Crow falcon--Fly progressively able bagged game for about 6 more days with only 1 catch per day. Merlin--Is it E.B. Michell's hawking book or Mavrogato's or Lascelles' that says to first hunt molting adults because they don't ring and just fly to thicker cover? Whistle(CR) each put in "to ground" and feed up. After about 10 "to ground" go fly the ringing singing young of the year with your clumsy unhacked merlin. Using the CR is key. Jim Fustos

[Mandragen]

Jim, I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread, please continue. It gives me some great new ideas for training. I do find the posts a bit difficult to follow in some spots, I'm assuming you are jumping back and forth between two birds here, so it seems?

Are these birds you are currently working on, or is everything past tense?

[barbedraptor]

Sorry about the back and forth. The hiding the dead lure in the PVC pipe works so easily for the merlins that I wanted to show how that is done. I used the mini backyard frozen lure stuff for bigger quarry. Seagulls and crows training during pest bird abatement. I could call off (CR whistle) the falcons after one or two or three stoops after they had ringed the seagull keeping them from killing or binding and bringing them to ground so they wouldn't get killed by the local bald eagles or resident redtails. The training sequence just explains how to shape each stage of the entering to the ringing flight. Habituating the falcons to chasing their quarry to ground is what I wanted to explain. It is quit simple. Jim Fustos

[Mandragen]

That makes sense, thanks~!

[barbedraptor]

The beauty of the CR allows you to train a behavior that is not usually common in the wild. Merlins don't ring quarry in the wild because the quarry just gets away in the bushes most of the time. So to be able to CR and reward rare behavior enables you to practice that particular style flight. Example: I remember the article of the passage ferruginous hawk that quit flying jack rabbits after several days of coming up empty. All you would of needed to do is CR the misses until the hawk started to catch them regularly. The CR and reward would have encouraged those long beauty flights until the hawk learned how to finish them.

[Mandragen]

Correct, you are just reinforcing approximations at that point. If the individual cannot perform the entire behavior, you have to reward the approximations to the end result.

[Gerkin]

The beauty of the CR allows you to train a behavior that is not usually common in the wild. Merlins don't ring quarry in the wild because the quarry just gets away in the bushes most of the time. So to be able to CR and reward rare behavior enables you to practice that particular style flight. Example: I remember the article of the passage ferruginous hawk that quit flying jack rabbits after several days of coming up empty. All you would of needed to do is CR the misses until the hawk started to catch them regularly. The CR and reward would have encouraged those long beauty flights until the hawk learned how to finish them.

Wild Merlins of all races do ring quarry until the energy efficient & survival learning curve kicks in..

Motivation is offset by more efficient survival techniques.

Ringing flights are only possible for as long as the bird over flows with confidence, fitness and easier opportunities are not present.

What you describe is quite similar to how I train game falcons to be in a position of dominance, and is not how I would shape the necessary mind set for ringing pursuit.

A ringing flight is a very natural behaviour, as is the willingness for the bird to continue to do it..

The longevity of this style of hawking is down to the falconer and his skills in preventing the natural progression to more efficient techniques as seen in wild birds.. (hence your suggestion that wild birds DONT ring) they probably did, but learnt that such a high level of input both draws attention and is less effective than sneak attacks at low level

In the case of the Passage Ferru, I would suggest that additional disheartening factors took the bird away from its natural confidence and ceased the desired behaviour.. to maintain the positive motivation of ALMOST all other elements must be in place.

I've had birds try incredibly hard all season to catch things they have never caught or eaten before..
For this you need to work birds in a mind category that does not pressure them in to coming up with a solution fast to better their situation.
Effectively the bird is suspended in a serious play mode..


The natural learning of birds is simple, but is based on multiple aspects..
its influenced by confidence, fitness and recognition of suitable opportunities.

[barbedraptor]

I can't overstate the fact of the dead lure and PVC pipe with 60 "to ground" trials accomplishes the exact mindset for the merlin that you describe. Besides ringing flights my unhacked eyass merlins easily force small flocks (5 to 20) of English Sparrows, starlings or wild pigeons out of the air and into the ground. The setups are very similar to the classic rook hawking into the wind. The pigeon flights are just setup at their roosting and nesting sites at bridges or buildings. Pigeons aren't very afraid of a young merlin until about the third shallow stoop at the high circling flock and then a young bird will be picked out and forced out of the air into the ground. Beware that gyrfalcons, prairie falcons, redtails and great horned owls like to kill and eat the merlin on quarry. Jim Fustos

[falcon56]

I'm more than a little confused here Jim, maybe it's just me. How does training a bird to go from your fist to the dead sparrow lure on the ground /into the PVC pipe, transition to a bird that will energetically pursue ringing flights? The two behaviors aren't similar at all.

[Gerkin]

The two behaviors aren't similar at all.

I wonder if it might boil down to the personal interpretation of what a ringing flight actually is.. and what is required to maintain that behaviour?

I have to admit to reading his post & often skipping a lot of it as indigestible binary code.
Maybe its just me but the approach seems both over complicated without much explanation.. and certainly not much runs parallel to natural behaviour shaping
And I would consider myself one of the more complicated types & still didn't take much of it in.

[falcon56]

Marcus,
My interpretation of a ringing flight is a merlin pursuing quarry, whether starlings, horned larks, pigeons or whatever, up high in an attempt to get in a superior position above the quarry, then either stooping to the ground on the tail of the prey, slashing thru the flock to separate a "weaker hearted" individual and binding to it, or just following the prey up and snagging it out of the air.

[Hunner]

thumbsuppthumbsuppthumbsuppthumbsuppthumbsupp
Marcus,
My interpretation of a ringing flight is a merlin pursuing quarry, whether starlings, horned larks, pigeons or whatever, up high in an attempt to get in a superior position above the quarry, then either stooping to the ground on the tail of the prey, slashing thru the flock to separate a "weaker hearted" individual and binding to it, or just following the prey up and snagging it out of the air.

Whew!! I was hoping things hadn't changed! Ringing is ringing is ringing! With the edge going to the larks. clapp

[Tanner]

In America, haggard merlins do ring quarry as part of their repertoire. Furthermore, as Ray points out- many catches are made in the air during ringing flights, either at a high pitch or on the way down as both are stooping back to the ground. That is true for wild merlins as well as falconry birds.

My experiences with eyas merlins and high ringing flights in open country do not jive with what Jim is saying. Young merlins pursuing that quarry will engage in high ringing flights within a few attempts, naturally, without any "training". The young merlins have to be flying hard and learning how to foot that quarry very early in the year - and if they are going to be successful, they have to develop in lock-step with the quarry as it becomes tougher by the day in early fall (youngsters maturing and adults becoming full-summed in their flight feathers). Taking that much time (any time for that matter) away from actually flying at quarry at that time of year will put the young merlin behind, developmentally, and the game will be up. That's my experience anyway. Of course I am talking about house sparrows out in the open desert grasslands.

But who knows, I'm not much of a bird trainer in any respect.

[Tanner]

To Audry's original post - Audry if you find your kestrel hood shy, you can try putting a small piece of meat on the tip of your pinky finger. Put that through the beak opening of the hood so your finger tip and the meat are inside the hood. When she reaches forward and takes the meat, slip the hood on. That makes a no-brainer out of a dodgy small bird that isn't too enthusiastic about the hood.

[Gerkin]

Marcus,
My interpretation of a ringing flight

Is the same as mine

The question was directed at Jim to see if we are all following the same picture.

[barbedraptor]

I found after years of failures and a few successes I needed to put the ringing flight into a teaching model. It turned out shaping the "to ground" behavior to a high repeatable rate was all that was required of what I thought was complicated behaviors. The merlin easily and lazily will ring quarry up into the sky out of sight of the naked eye. It doesn't get any easier than that.

[Tanner]

Alrighty then.

[passagejack]

My brain now hurts..... not sure if it's the complicated dialog or the margaritas I'm drinking lol! I have found that if a merlin is reluctant to ring up with said quarry then teaching it to wait on is the answer. I have had a nice jack reluctant to ring up said quarry from the fist. I backed up a bit and over the course of 5 day had him waiting around d 500 feet. When said quarry was flushed he completely dominated them at this point. His throw ups were epic and the quarry lost its mind due to his complete dominance of the flight. I will be trying this again with a couple of new jacks this next season. It's natural for merlins to ring however they know when they are out matched physically. The advantage of height from a waiting on post on gives them all the confidence they need to ring up and dominant their quarry.

[JRedig]

I found after years of failures and a few successes I needed to put the ringing flight into a teaching model. It turned out shaping the "to ground" behavior to a high repeatable rate was all that was required of what I thought was complicated behaviors. The merlin easily and lazily will ring quarry up into the sky out of sight of the naked eye. It doesn't get any easier than that.

confusedd uh?

[falcon56]

Double "uh".

[falcon56]

I found after years of failures and a few successes I needed to put the ringing flight into a teaching model. It turned out shaping the "to ground" behavior to a high repeatable rate was all that was required of what I thought was complicated behaviors. The merlin easily and lazily will ring quarry up into the sky out of sight of the naked eye. It doesn't get any easier than that.

I don't know what you've experienced with ringing flights, but there is nothing easy or lazy when it comes to a focused merlin ringing quarry up out of sight, if the merlin was lazy, it would be left in the dust and never be successful.

[falcon56]

thumbsuppthumbsuppthumbsuppthumbsuppthumbsupp

Whew!! I was hoping things hadn't changed! Ringing is ringing is ringing! With the edge going to the larks. clapp

Glad you chimed in here Al. Just to set the record straight, explain to us how easy and lazy the ringing flights you and Szabo and Snider were having with those eyass merlins back in the 70's. Maybe things have changed!

[Saluqi]

I remember Jim Fustos had posted this to the Hawk-l list server and I had copied
and saved it on my hard drive, it had a date of May 1999. Maybe this sheds a little
more light on his method. Sorry it's not formatted better.


How to Teach an Unhacked Eyas Merlin To Ring Birds
by Jimmy Fustos

It has long been assumed that to teach merlins to ring birds out of
sight took exceptional falcons and careful entering. The falcons had to be
hacked for up to three weeks to become strong flyers and exceptional
footers. They had to be carefully entered and trained in a precise gradual
manner with no mistakes, and even then many didn't make the grade because
they started to bag-off their quarry. That was one way. I will describe another
way that will enliven an unhacked clumsy eyas to easily ring birds out of sight
using shaping and chaining techniques.

After flying merlins for over six years with some successes, some
failures and always confusion, I started applying shaping techniques. While
analyzing ringing flights I heard an offhand comment from an English
falconer and it all became clear. The English falconer reminded me of an
overlooked important point: That eyas merlins rarely catch their quarry in
the air, it usually is caught on the ground. It was that step in the
chaining process that I needed to focus on. All I needed was to shape my
merlins to put quarry to ground. It didn't take incredible stamina, extreme
confidence or haggard style footing to force ringing quarry to the ground.
A young eyas with little flying experience can mount up as fast
as the smaller quarry because of their weight and wing-loading
differences. Once the naive eyas learns that all she needs to do is force
the quarry to ground she rings rather lazily as if she can take the time to
manicure her talons on the way up. The rudiments of forcing quarry to
ground is what I can teach her in the backyard before she is even
hard-pinned.
The backyard training apparatus consists of two one foot long,
two inch diameter plastic pipes laid on the ground about six feet apart.
Secure the pipes so they won't move because they act as a safe refuge for
the sparrows. A nylon string is put through the two pipes and the two ends
are tied together. On the string between the two pipes I attach an English
sparrow with a string harness attached to its wings. I can stand about ten
feet away from the pipes and move the sparrow between them by pulling the
string either way. Block off one end of both pipes, so it is dark inside the
pipes and the sparrow can't be accidentally pulled out of the back end.
To condition the eyas there are three main behaviors I need to
shape to specific objectives. First, she needs to learn to put the same
bird repeatedly into cover during several reflushes. Secondly, she needs to
learn to stay on "point" (stay near the put in and hiding quarry) for three
minutes until I call her to the fist for a reflush. Three minutes is just
an estimated appropriate length of time based on my field experience. Later
in the field she may put quarry in several hundred feet away and she needs
to "point" the quarry until I am able to run up there. It she would leave
the place before I am close enough to identify the exact hiding place, we
may lose the quarry. Landmarks are hard to pick out on the monotonous
prairie. Thirdly, she needs to learn to ride the fist for five minutes
waiting for a flush. Later in the field she may be shaped to ride on the
fist for a much longer time before a flush.
In chaining behaviors together, start teaching the last thing that
happens in the flight first, working backwards.
Teaching sequence:
A. Merlin eats sparrow.
B. Merlin launched from fist and captures sparrow.
C. Merlin comes to fist only on command.
D. Merlin launches from fist and forces quarry to cover(pipe).
E. Repeat C and D three times.
F. Merlin comes to fist only on command.
G. Merlin "points" to hiding place for three minutes.
H. Merlin launches from the fist and puts quarry into pipe the first
time.
I. Merlin rides on fist for five minutes before first flush(being pulled
out of a pipe).
J. Take off hood.
K. Beginning
I did two training sessions a day, one in the morning and one in
the evening. Chain the behaviors together by adding each new behavior after
the previous one is mastered. Reaching the goal behaviors will take less
than a week, but don't rush it, the merlin needs several dozen put ins on
the harnessed sparrow to reinforce that behavior.
A. Before backyard training begins she has eaten several whole
sparrows. I condition her with anti-carrying strategies used for Accipiters
(McElroy,1977). I walk up and around the feeding eyas. At this time I also
condition her to the use of the quarry stick, a proven several hundred year
old anti-carrying technique. It is a 2 and 1/2 feet long 1/2 inch diameter
dowel with a blunted 3/4 inch nail sticking out of the side of one end. I
secure a freshly caught quarry by rolling the nail into the body of the dead
bird from a "safe" distance of about three feet away.
A&B Easy.
AB&C Don't tidbit the merlin when she comes to the fist. Shape
her to learn she only gets the sparrow flushed when she comes to a signal
(whistle) to ride on the fist.
ABC&D Easy
ABCD&E Easy. The merlin may start coming to the fist before the
come whistle is sounded. This is a bad behavior and should never be
reinforced I make sure I only continue the reflushes when she comes to the
fist only on command.
ABCDE&F Easy, nothing new, go to G&H
ABCDEFGH Shape "pointing" on all put-ins now. Shape the length of
the "point" from, let's say, 15 seconds to three minutes by 30 second
intervals. After each intermediate objective is reached about 50% of the
trials start shaping the next intermediate objective until the goal
objective of three minutes is reached. Once she will "point" the first
put-in for three minutes, the reflushes can be made with very short
"pointing" times.
ABCDEFGHI During the whole teaching sequence I have been
inadvertently shaping riding on the fist for longer periods.
The eyas may be doing five minutes already. If not, shape riding on the
fist at this time. One merlin became so wedded to the fist that once she
did catch a bird in the air she flew back to the fist to eat.
All objectives are met. She will ride on the fist for five
minutes, point the first put-in for 3 minutes and try hard on 3 reflushes.
Let's go
hawking. I hunted my merlins in the cool quiet mornings of August and
September. In the evenings I stooped them to the lure in my backyard.
Fly molting adults or young quarry that can barely fly in places
with good cover to entice the quarry to put-in. I fly the merlin with a
transmitter on one leg and a bell on the other leg to deliberately hinder
her from footing the quarry in the air. I want 2 or 3 reflushes before the
quarry is captured. Often after several reflushes the falcon and quarry
will be found sitting on the ground a couple of feet apart, panting. When
the quarry is forced to ground after the first ringing effort it becomes
intimidated and usually never tries to ring again, but only flies a short
distance looking for better cover. If the quarry escapes for good, such as
down a prairie dog burrow, reward the eyas with a dead sparrow pulled out of
the hole. She will be wedded to her quarry after taking about 7 head in 7
days and can now be taken to open ground to hunt high flying young of the
year.
It is stormy when I release the clumsy eyas on a huge flock of autumn
birds. They all ring up out of sight of 7x binoculars and birds start
raining down on me. The quarry is stooping down to nearby bushes or holes
desperately searching for cover. It sobers me to realize that the
individual organism has only a brief glorious existence.
To understand some of the directions on shaping and chaining
techniques study "How to Teach Animals" by B.F. Skinner from Scientific
America, Dec.1951, pp26-29.

[barbedraptor]

That article is from California Hawking, Vol. 21, #3, Dec. 1991. The funny thing is that it took me about 20 years to realize that it worked for all King's flights (heron, crane, rook) also. I want to highlight two important teaching tools. Remember when chaining different parts of the overall behavior together, start by shaping the last behavior in the sequence first. When bridging those behaviors together use distinctly different CR's for shaping each different behavior. Later each CR can be paired with a sign or signal that means that behavior is completed and the next one needs to be done. An instant use of the CR is the magic teaching tool. Many falconry books fail to teach the sequences backward. Now I just take every observed or read about behavior and put it in the operant conditioning model for clarity and ease of replicating the behaviors. My claim to fame is that I can teach a tired crying baby to go to sleep by themselves and I can potty train a 2 year old in half a day( It is a book by two of Skinner's students). Jim Fustos

[Gerkin]

For me the maths don't add up.
Lets examine the learning curve and its partnership with the motivation to happily apply a work load %

Juvenile birds already have the workload set far beyond the fitness level..

Its only when they hit the fitness boundary does the bird recalculate itself.. the onset of the economic learning curve.. natural learning of tactics..

Thus... the need to Teach a bird to ring is redundant.. yet the need to provide sufficient fitness is essential to subdue the onset of learning (combined with suitable slips & an absence of easier targets)

I Personally have rung game off the fist with a captive bred hack penned falcon with little more than a few out the hood exorcises to a dragged lure..
The fitness retained from the hack pen was sufficient enough to back up the target recognition and the bird continued all the while it had power..

The ringing flight is entirely down to the terrain, and if game is caught on the ground or attempting to enter cover you have entirely failed at achieving a traditional ringing flight..


I fail to believe that your ringing flights represent the traditional meaning of the term

[barbedraptor]

The two main obstacles for encouraging a ringing flight are: 1. quarry goes to cover and doesn't get caught. The CR "to ground" solves that problem. 2. Ringing quarry often employ flying at the clumsy merlin and zigzagging around them causing the merlin to stall out as it is trying to grab the quarry. After several of these failed grabs the merlin sets her wings and bags off the flight rejected and tired. After several days of this the merlin doesn't even hunt that species anymore. I site this observation because I don't know why or how my "to ground" trained merlins never get sucked into that tactic, they just ring up as high as it takes for the quarry to get nervous, panic and stoop to the ground.

[barbedraptor]

The classic King's flight is an attack on quarry on passage. So the key to the set up is to release your falcon from down wind of the quarry who is flying to a distant destination over open ground. A classic starling set up: I find a group of about 10 starlings sitting about 60 feet up in a lone tree with farmyard cover about 1000 feet up wind of the tree over a bare field. I drive to a position about 500 feet straight down wind of the tree, get out and unhood the merlin. The starlings recognize the merlin and take off into the light breeze heading toward the farmyard. About 600 feet passed the tree and 100 feet off the ground the merlin catches up to the small group. They panic and split up (each starling for itself) or as they say "9 of them just have to fly a little faster than the 10th one".

[Tony James]

Ringing Flights-- Falcons can physically easily out fly all the traditionally pursued quarry such as houbara, crane, heron, crow, rook, seagull and skylark. It is the falconer's job to completely WED the falcon to the quarry and HABITUATE the desired flight. When chaining behaviors together remember to train and shape the last behavior first. Training Sequence: 1. Thoroughly wed falcon to quarry. Merlin plucks and eats about 10 dead English sparrows. 2. Whistle(CR) means fly back to fist. Train falcon to come to fist for food. 3. Habituate mini flights "to ground" in the backyard. Emperor Fredrick II used shaping and chaining techniques 750 years ago. Many teaching methods have hidden built-in CR's present in them. But now we know to make them obvious and instant. You can probably think of better backyard "to ground" methods then I have. Here are 3 of mine. 3 Mini Training Flights: I. Merlin-- Tie dead English sparrow lure to a circular string that runs through a 2 inch diameter PVC pipe. Stand about 10 feet away from the lure, unhood merlin, twitch lure, merlin catches lure, transfer to fist meal and feed up. Fast Forward: the next day merlin chases lure as you pull it into the pipe "to ground" and loses it. After each "to ground" whistle(CR), falcon flies to fist, pull lure out of pipe and she chases it again. Do 3 to 5 "to ground" each day for about 20 days. That is over 60 "to grounds". I will finish post tomorrow.


Dear Jim,

it's always fascinating to see different ideas put forward, as it is with yours, but I'm perhaps a little old fashioned and I don't really understand what some of the modern terms mean, even though I might well be doing some of what they're describing, and I often find myself wondering about the thinking behind them.
One thing that seems common to many new 'training methods', is that they take an awful lot longer than more traditional methods, and rarely produce as good a hawk.
The 20 days devoted to 'to ground' training, in my experience, is more than enough time to enter a merlin, and achieve the most spectacular ringing flights.
There's nothing especially clever or complicated about it (assuming the falconer manages his hawk well), but it requires an appropriate quarry, and suitably open ground.

For any falcon to show good ringing flights at a well matched quarry, nothing is more important than confidence.
With the right mental attitude, borne of good management and success at increasingly difficult slips, the best flights are possible. If that attitude is missing, and the hawk doubts her abilities, the spiral is more likely to be downwards rather than upwards.

I wish you well in your quest,

Tony.

[Hunner]

Well stated Tony!

[Mandragen]

I think what Tony said was right as well, as there are many ways to train. They always say the only things two trainers can agree on, is what the third is doing wrong.

As Tony stated, with his methods there are a lot of what seem to be, requirements. Appropriate quarry, suitable open ground, confidence, mental attitude, born of good management, success at difficult slips, and so on, are all necessary for a individual to certain things on it's own accord, and do it well. I think the reasoning behind some of the new methods is trying to take any individual and do the same thing, even if it is lacking some or all of those things.

[Gerkin]

I think the reasoning behind some of the new methods is trying to take any individual and do the same thing, even if it is lacking some or all of those things.

The problem with theses so termed "new methods" is that they are not new, but they are suggested by people who might be "new" to falconry or at least do not have a grasp of its many different styles.

Thus the interpretation of the relevance is lost to those who are already great falconers, and will quickly see through the science & write the whole lot off as garbage.

The fault is not in the modern approach, but in the connection between it and those that can apply it species specifically..

I think a lot of these dead ends come from the geeks trying to apply the science in a broad spectrum fashion.. in some cases to try & fit in to groups when they lack any real hands on.

[Mandragen]

I only called them new because that's what was being said, I understand fully there is nothing new here. I believe Jim was even saying that he got all this from history anyway, or something of that nature. I'm not actually disagreeing with anyone, or taking sides here, just trying to fill in the gaps.

[Gerkin]

I only called them new because that's what was being said, I understand fully there is nothing new here.

I should have been more clear in using the term "new language"
I would agree that they are mostly old ideas, but I would also suggest that many of the applications could in many ways be classed as entirely "new"

I do think there is quite a difference in the ways we deal, shape & motivate captive bred birds today, compared to the passage birds noted in text from the past.

I'm the first to admit that I'm not particularly well read when it comes too old or recent books on the subject of falconry.
I started by way of the classic apprenticeship way before the internet forums & affordable publications on the subject.

I took a great deal of inspiration some 10 years after my being an active falconer when working with Parrots & marine mammals.

And much of my falconry today is based on the specific species & objective application of OC.

I have simply embraced the concept and made it more relevant by the way in which its implemented.. be it the timing & method of reward delivery or other.

[Gerkin]

Appropriate quarry, suitable open ground, confidence, mental attitude, born of good management, success at difficult slips, and so on, are all necessary for a individual to certain things on it's own accord, and do it well. I think the reasoning behind some of the new methods is trying to take any individual and do the same thing, even if it is lacking some or all of those things.

Just to be clear, having re-read this:

Your suggesting that a ringing flight can be achieved through conditioning even if

"Appropriate quarry, suitable open ground, confidence, mental attitude"

are absent?

In my experience Ringing flights are dictated by these, not only due to the oppotunity, but the strength of the learning curve

Does your comment suggest that Jim F's conditioning can out weight the power of the natural learning curve on this hunting style?

Its one thing to condition a bird to ignor check in a busy field, but in my personal experience of traditional ringing flights the Power in sustaining this style and the motivation for it is entirely in the setup.. and unless all the necessary elements are either permitted of eliminated you are far better off going down another route (waiting on) since that follows the natural learning curves orientation.. ie dont fight it.. embrace it

[Mandragen]

I'll be the first to admit, I have minimal falconry experience compared to others. I'm not even sure I fully understand ringing flights, other than what has been discussed and derived from this thread. I'm much more visual when it comes to learning, so if someone could show me a video of these flights, that would be great.

With that said, I'm a full believer that by shaping behaviors and properly reinforcing approximations, anything is possible, within physical boundaries. I'm not saying you can teach a dog to fly. It is my understanding that that was the topic of discussion, properly shaping the desired behavior.

From most of what I have read, and have been taught, falconry is all about getting the bird to do what comes natural to the individual you are working with, as long as the end result is taking the game desired with the help of the falconer. Many of the same concepts are used, such as whistling when it comes time to feed. Falconers are creating the bridge from the moment the bird is off the trap and food is introduced. Positive reinforcement and timing are all being used as well, the bird follows, you whistle (Bridge), the bird returns for R1 (food). Everything else that takes place, as far as hunting style is concerned, is up to the bird to determine based on outside factors.

Now, if you are desiring a certain hunting style with a bird that might not figure it out on it's own, you shape it, as was posted above. Can this same style be found in certain circumstances, naturally; yes. Was it the intention, maybe, maybe not.

If you break those factors down, quarry means nothing, it's just the intended mark. Right now I've got a falcon we are trying to teach to target a fake banana. I will change the intended target later, but for right now, a banana is the most unique thing we came up with. In one session, the bird has already recognized that to get it's food, it has to touch the banana.

Suitable open ground is going to be a bit vague. You can fly in the woods, you can fly in a building, small field, large field, desert, as long as it was compatible with what you were trying to accomplish.

Confidence can be trained, we do it all the time. Some birds get it on their own accord, and some need baggies. You could also reinforce the effort, even if the end result wasn't the intended outcome. Let's say the bird put in a great flight but came up short; bridge the behavior at the appropriate approximation and reinforce manually. Confidence can be lost as well, but can be regained, maybe not as easily.

Mental attitude is going to be the biggest factor, sometimes it can't be overcome. However, to mark it off as a lost cause immediately, may be foolish. Some individuals have different motivators. You take an individual that isn't food motivated, you could say it has a poor mental attitude as it doesn't want your reinforcement. The problem was that you weren't reinforcing at all.

I think shaping can surely out way natural learning, as that's only another method of shaping. However, it's going to take some work on the trainer's behalf, and how much work do you want to put in? You're last statement is dead on, why fight it, if you don't have to.

As far as my subject targeting fake bananas, it's as nuts as it sounds. I've already decided how much work I want to put into this behavior, and if it doesn't pan out, I'll turn it in great falconry bird. It's all about how much work do you want to invest.

[Tony James]

The problem with theses so termed "new methods" is that they are not new, but they are suggested by people who might be "new" to falconry or at least do not have a grasp of its many different styles.

Thus the interpretation of the relevance is lost to those who are already great falconers, and will quickly see through the science & write the whole lot off as garbage.

The fault is not in the modern approach, but in the connection between it and those that can apply it species specifically..

I think a lot of these dead ends come from the geeks trying to apply the science in a broad spectrum fashion.. in some cases to try & fit in to groups when they lack any real hands on.


Hi Marcus,

I believe, ever more so, that falconry is an art rather than a science, and would always encourage anyone who likes to take a scientific approach to keep it as fluid as possible.
Attempting to lay down an ABCDEFG, step-by-step, formulaic description of how to achieve anything in falconry, as attractive as it may be, fails to grasp the fundamental 'art', and whilst there may be occasions when a hawk overcomes all of the obstacles created by the falconer and becomes successful, that success is inevitably and perversely attributed to one or more of the obstacles, as the falconer, so focussed on the formula, fails to recognise that it came about in spite of, rather than because of his pet project.

Ringing flights are simply a variation on direct pursuit, that come about by the quarry's climbing efforts to avoid capture, and the hawk's utter confidence in its ability to get the better of it. They vary according to the ability of the quarry and the hawk/s pursuing it, the terrain, and the weather (and of course to the type of hawk and its physical capabilities and preferences).

I've often commented that physical fitness in a hawk, despite being a requirement for the best flights, is of little consequence if a hawk lacks confidence or mental fortitude. To some degree this can be overcome, perhaps with the use of a make-hawk, but in my opinion the best hawks enjoy a progressive development without serious interruption.

I'm sure you're very well aware of all this, but as I say, it's very easy to be sidetracked by prescriptive formulas, as I've seen all too often.
I hear things like "I need to stoop my merlin 100 times for the next week, to get it fit enough for these larks". No I think, you needed to take easy, then progressively more difficult larks, to instil the notion in the merlins mind that no lark is beyond its powers, but now, I'm afraid, you've missed the boat.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tony James]

Well stated Tony!

Thanks Allen,

although I must say I'm feeling slightly embarrassed at sounding like an old grump!

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Dillon]

Just a couple of notes here on Jimmy's post.

First, I think when he refers to "habituating" and "habituation," he mean "conditioning." Habituation is a classical conditioning phenomenon that occurs, not an operant, learned behavior.

Second, While I've on occasion reinforced (with a CR and/ or tidbit) missed attempts at game in order to reinforce the chase, science tells us that using conditioned, contrived, or extrinsic reinforcers to reinforce intrinsic behavior will actually reduce the discretionary effort expended on the behavior (in other words, reinforcing unsuccessful attempts at quarry will actually reduce effort over time instead of increase it.) The reasons behind this are multi-faceted and complex, too much so to go into here, but if anyone is interested in it you can find a ton of info with a simple google search. Hunting hawks that are in shape will be reinforced for chasing quarry because it is intrinsically reinforcing, and variable ratio schedules are what naturally encourage raptors to persist chasing prey even when success ratios can be relatively low.

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in here, as I make a professional living using applied behavior analysis with animals.

[Smeagol]

Ringing skylarks with merlins comes naturally to merlins in the Uk. Skylarks are the wild merlins most common prey item after meadow pipits ( another classical flight). Most trained merlins will ring larks very well. Some stick to it longer than others and the very best continue ringing fully moulted larks into October and beyond. The wild merlins catch dining larks very readily all year round but of course are blessed with so much more speed and stamina than our captive bred birds.
Passage birds would inevitably provide a greater chance of prolonged ringing flights into the late autumn and winter.
Although we have a fixation on the ringing flight, the best merlins learn to climb in oblique straight lines off to the side of the lark to gain height.
My self and a couple of friends with 30 merlins worth of experience between us noted that the best merlins were two that employed the latter tactic. They both killed larks into late October and one right through the winter in a style that almost approached the style of a wild merlin.

Skylarks by their very nature create ringing flights. The meadow pipit created ringing/ lateral mounting blights that are just as stylish in a different way.

Sadly without access to passage merlins we are unable to realistically pursue larks all winter as they become too strong for the vast majority of captive bred merlins.

Nick

[Gerkin]

Hunting hawks that are in shape will be reinforced for chasing quarry because it is intrinsically reinforcing, and variable ratio schedules are what naturally encourage raptors to persist chasing prey even when success ratios can be relatively low.

I have hunted falcons on almost impossible quarry (and would take your statement even further to suggest that its possible for a bird to be conditioned as to be mentally invincible that it will continually attempt to succeed without any need for a confidence booster (catching said quarry)
The better the quarry match the stronger this can be.

I have also flown small accipiter species which are prone to problems (fist/lure bound) catching very little due to the quarry being such a challenge and have never lost that top end enthusiasm for the next slip

As tony states, this is really when it becomes a bit of an "art" although i might claim less credit by calling this a method since I'm not much of an artist.


whilst there may be occasions when a hawk overcomes all of the obstacles created by the falconer and becomes successful, that success is inevitably and perversely attributed to one or more of the obstacles, as the falconer, so focussed on the formula, fails to recognise that it came about in spite of, rather than because of his pet project.

I would suggest that this "method" is one more common than we appreciate and regularly takes people away from bettering their understanding of what is really happening..
Some times nature finds a way to navigate the handicap.


As far as my subject targeting fake bananas, it's as nuts as it sounds. .

You shouldn't find this task too difficult, the concept is similar to many aspects of Falconry in terms of a bridge.

I've used all sorts of heavy aerodynamic non grip-able objects as a target/bridge when freefalling falcons.

[Gerkin]

Sadly without access to passage merlins we are unable to realistically pursue larks all winter as they become too strong for the vast majority of captive bred merlins.

Can I ask how much of a significance is the learning curve in sustaining the Merlins willingness to ring.

I have flown a number of passage Merlins & found them very much fixed in employing technique rather than a use of full power much the same as passage accipiters using sneak attacks & refusing more challenging slips.

Are these Merlins you speak of really lacking in power, or are they just wising up to the survival learning curve?

[Tony James]

Can I ask how much of a significance is the learning curve in sustaining the Merlins willingness to ring.

I have flown a number of passage Merlins & found them very much fixed in employing technique rather than a use of full power much the same as passage accipiters using sneak attacks & refusing more challenging slips.

Are these Merlins you speak of really lacking in power, or are they just wising up to the survival learning curve?

I have friends who have flown passage merlins at skylarks, and as history bears out, they are not necessarily to be preferred to eyasses, hacked or unhacked, for the very reason you hint at.
In a similar vein, few intermewed merlins have as much potential for the ringing flights at skylarks, not for any physical reason, but because of their changed mentality.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Smeagol]

Can I ask how much of a significance is the learning curve in sustaining the Merlins willingness to ring.

Marcus,

I have flown a number of passage Merlins & found them very much fixed in employing technique rather than a use of full power much the same as passage accipiters using sneak attacks & refusing more challenging slips.

Are these Merlins you speak of really lacking in power, or are they just wising up to the survival learning curve?


I think to a certain extent its a bit of both.

Let me preface this by giving some background.
I've lived all my life in merlin country in the UK. We have breeding merlins in the uplands nearby where they prey almost exclusively on skylarks and meadow pipits. In the winter they follow the larks and pipits down onto the coastal areas in a local migration.
The UK merlin is tied to larks and pipits. Without those tow species we wouldn't have a resident merlin population.

In over 25 years of watching wild merlins chasing larks and pipits, and flying captive bred merlins at the same, one can formulate some pretty viable views as to their capabilities, and the main physical differences between wild and captive bred.

Generally larks escape captive bred merlins by taking to the sky, and beating them in the air, most commonly by ringing up.

Generally larks escape wild merlins by taking to cover as they cannot use the same tactics against an opponent that has greater speed and endurance and climbing power than they do. Often they don't get a chance as particularly on the coastal areas they get ambushed often by a merlin streaking along at low level. They often don't try and take to the sky but if they do or are caught out on passage, I have rarely seen a lark outfly a wild merlin that looked like it meant it. I've seen plenty escape, but hardly ever in the sky, much more often it has been a dive into cover after escaping suffocating pressure that the merlin has exerted.

As an example, one year I had a very good female merlin that was taking on and bringing down strong ringing larks into early October. From then on our flights followed the usual pattern at that time of year of an increasing number of ringing larks being 'chucked' as the merlin quickly determined which ones were beyond her capabilities. Anyway one such lark spiralled up, and after a couple of hundred feet the merlin gave best and came back. the lark continued up bouncing up into the sky like they do in the and giving its familiar victory chirp chirp chirp call (different from their noted song). I called the merlin down to the lure and cast my eyes back to the lark now a small dot in the sky. I noticed a small rapidly moving exocet climbing on a long out run many hundreds of feet below the lark. It was the local haggard jack (ID'ed later with binos) that had been joining flights regularly through the season.

After three or four frenetic out runs he caught up with the lark high in the sky and deftly footed it at the second or third pass.

Most larks taken with trained captive bred merlins are caught on the ground, most larks taken by wild merlins are taken in the air. Often when a wild merlin brings down a lark in winter on the low ground the lark is intent on making the cover in the form of hedges, bushes etc. Commonly the merlin will get underneath the lark and cut it off from the ground and push it back up into the sky where it can be footed. The ringing flight with a captive merlin nearly always results in the lark going to ground if the merlin has managed to bring it down out of the sky. Wild merlins usually stoop faster and hook underneath the lark and force it back up. You feel for the lark sometimes, it can't escape up or down.

When you see haggard jack after a pipit in a flight so fast and frenetic it is almost as if the merlin is tied to the pipit with elastic. You'd be forgiven for thinking it's a completely different species to the ones we are are permitted to fly.

The two ends of the spectrum are extreme in physical power, speed, stamina and footing ability. Why would they not be.

We haven't and have never had access to passage merlins and never will but I'd imagine the passage bird, if skillfully managed to retain at least some of its former horsepower, might fall between the two stalls but then like any other captive merlin it would be presented with a range of choices and management styles that didn't allow it to display anywhere near its potential.

Ive seen a few passage merlins fly in person and on film and they have a different wing beat and speed than most captive bred versions but then again you would expect them too. It is easy to imagine them being easily turned off ringing larks given the limitations being in captivity places on them.

Sorry if this is teaching Grandma to suck eggs (I don't your experience with merlins) and it has nothing to do with operant conditioning. I m not even sure what that it is?

My self and my friends followed roughly the same regime in preparing merlins. Get them flying loose and onto quarry quickly, hardly any stooping to the lure, flown hard, fed hard on the best of small bird diets and allow the quarry to shape the falcon. Like most, we have all had a variety of different abilities in our merlins (or maybe just intelligence). Most were good, the odd one was poor, and the odd one was special. Most known training regimes will result in the same spread of outcomes.

I'm all for innovation of any training technique with merlins. The wild merlins are such a different beast in every aspect that anything that allows us to scratch more of the potential out of our trained birds would be great.

Opinions on the capabilities of larks and merlins are largely borne out of lark hawking experience at a certain time of year for a limited period. The struggle goes n all year round and produces amazing predators and prey.

Having seen one merlin flown right through the winter on larks and I would be very keen to see that again, if a new approach facilitated it.

That is a huge challenge for anyone and sadly a sight I am likely to see only by getting by bino's out and going down to the coast, But......


Nick

[Gerkin]

The two ends of the spectrum are extreme in physical power, speed, stamina and footing ability. Why would they not be.

Great post thanks for that,

I wonder if you have had the same conversation with Greg L regarding tame hacked Merlins :) ?

[Tony James]

We haven't and have never had access to passage merlins and never will but I'd imagine the passage bird, if skillfully managed to retain at least some of its former horsepower, might fall between the two stalls but then like any other captive merlin it would be presented with a range of choices and management styles that didn't allow it to display anywhere near its potential.

Nick

Hi Nick,

that's simply not the case, and yet demand for passage merlins for lark hawking didn't exist.
At a time when passage peregrines were in great demand for out of the hood and waiting on flights, merlins, which were cheaply available from the same source, were being obtained as eyasses, and were normally hacked before being trained.
I believe there was good reason for that being so.

Tony.

[Tony James]

Hi Nick,

that's simply not the case, and yet demand for passage merlins for lark hawking didn't exist.
At a time when passage peregrines were in great demand for out of the hood and waiting on flights, merlins, which were cheaply available from the same source, were being obtained as eyasses, and were normally hacked before being trained.
I believe there was good reason for that being so.

Tony.

Sorry, it was too late to edit by the time I realised I'd missed out a couple of crucial words, and have now inserted 'passage' and 'elsewhere', where they had been left out.


Hi Nick,

that's simply not the case, and yet demand for passage merlins for lark hawking didn't exist.
At a time when passage peregrines were in great demand for out of the hood and waiting on flights, passage merlins, which were cheaply available from the same source, were being obtained elsewhere as eyasses, and were normally hacked before being trained.
I believe there was good reason for that being so.

Tony.

[Falconer54]

Marcus, great reading. Great you have seen and personally know the great difference between flying wild Merlins, and our eyass trained ones, even hacked ones. Your observation about the wild ones catching them in the air, and our trained ones catching them on the ground is the biggest difference between Falconry birds and wild birds. Same can go for other Falcons as well. For instance, large falcons on dove, pigeons, starlings. I would also say on a positive note for our trained eyass birds, we can develop them into great gamehawks, and they are a bit more flexible in some areas. I am an old Falconer, with old ways. I haven't been big on OC, especially with Peregrines who don't always like to be trained so much, but seem to adapt and grow just flying on game, just my opinion and what I have experienced. I also believe these days, we seem as a whole, to overtrain our birds. This can have an affect of less enthusiasm, possibly aggression, through boredom. Birds are a lot like us, doing the same thing over and over again, can help the mind to go idle. New challenges excite and stimulate the bird, and just like us, they want to do more. I have been hit in the head lure stooping Peregrines by 4 different Peregrines, non of them imprints. 2 were passage. I had my reasons for stooping them, but they sure didn't see it that way. They let me know what they thought of being TRAINED. Been asked if it was just miscalculating or a mistake, yea right. They knew exactly what they were doing, and the point they were trying to get across. Maybe some of the newer OC, is great, just haven't had much use to try most of it. The old saying, don't fix it, if it ain't broke, comes to mind. Things have changed, how many people use traditional jesses, old leather leashes. I do believe in the newer equipment we have available, and technology. Anyway, not sure how much of my jibber was related to this thread.