A few questions about first gos

[JChavez]

Hello I don't post much, but I do read a lot. I would like to post more but I'm not very good at getting my tboughts written down lol
A bit about my self, I've been a falconer for 15 yrs, I've flown multiple red tails, Harris Hawks one passage coopers, peregrine tiercel, currently I have had the same cast of Harris Hawks for several years they kill lots of rabbits and I always have a great time with them, I have killed rabbits from a soar with them so high I couldn't see them. They killed just shy of 200 rabbits this last season. Total kills with stuff I don't count was closer to 250(birds,lizards, snakes,ground squirrel) HOWWEVER, I want a change or would it be I want a headache lol
Since I started my falconry career at age 15 there has always been two things I wanted to accomplish, one was fly a cast of Harris Hawks and be successful, two a goshawk!! The gos was always put on hold because I'm just too busy, well I've come to realize that my life will get no less busy than the current time so next year 2016 I'm planning on getting one. I'm hoping to find a local person to help me out with this process.
I have a few questions that I hope can be answered and either encourage me or stop this idea before it gets to big in my head.
One concern I have is that as a fireman I work 24 hours straight so would not be around every other day, if I know when I'll be pulling the bird I can take days off to be around to get through feeding. My wife would also be willing to help feed a small bird and my plan is to do the imprint tank thing so the bird would be exposed to the wife the dog and can have some stimulation while I'm goner them on my day off I would take it out to see the world. At what age could I leave food for the day with it and it be able to feed itself?
And this is my big question what affects would me being gone for 24 hrs have on this bird? I only work 10 days a month so it's not like I'm never home.
Any other challenges anyone can see with my schedule beingba problem?
Ill be able to put plenty of game in front of this bird and I try to fly my birds everyday I'm off which is about 20 days a month. Also anyone in nevada that would be willing to help me get a bird your help would be appreciated
If not I'll be out there anyway finding a nest and getting a bird unless someone talks me out of it
Any help is appreciated
Have a great day jimmy Chavez

[BestBeagler]

What about a chamber raised Finnish goshawk?

[JChavez]

Well I haven't much looked into them because of the price, which I believe to be around 2000-3000 is that correct??
But I'm guessing it would be a much easier route for me? If this is the easier route I can look into it and start saving. How do you treat these as far as training goes??

[colelkhunter]

Couple thoughts:

If you are wanting an imprint on your schedule you have a couple choices. Take the bird to work with you or if that is not possible you will most certainly need someone to help you. Leaving the bird alone for that much time, even after it is able to feed itself, it is a HUGE no no. Eyass birds have a way of sometimes ignoring food that is right in front of them, even when hungry. They will sit there in the nest bowl with an empty crop and a bowl full of food. You walk over and offer a tidbit from the bowl and they go to eating like gangbusters from the bowl. Combine that with the fact that they just do stupid things sometimes. No setup is completely safe for an eyass and it will require constant monitoring. Plus the interjection of another person as a constant around the bird is never a bad thing. Just make sure that both parties are on the same age when it comes to etiquette and feeding. Should be no problem at all.

[Goshawkin]

I agree with Brian. I bought my last gos from Dave Dixon and he would regularly take eyases to the fire station, in fact, I picked my bird up from the station. Further, I think having the young bird with me at my store was really helpful in manning. Plus every time I make my wife do anything with the birds it comes back to haunt me.

[Goshawkin]

you going to get rid of the Harris cast if you get a gos? If so, hit me up. I'll take them off your hands and fly them with my FHH. I'm close to you.

[JChavez]

Thank you for your thoughts, I don't want an imprint necessarily I want a gos lol
One day I might be able to take them to work but for not it's not possible, I'm the new guy so have other responsibilities and my station is on the Las Vegas strip we are so busy it would be near impossible to have a bird at work.
Also my wife would help but even then I think he bird would be left alone for too many hours during the day while she is gone
So the imprint thing is out of the question untip I can figure something out, this is very sad news but it's ok I'll figure something else out. I can make the Finnish bird work but will just take more time to save up that kind of money
Now who can recommend some good breeders out here on the west coast? Would prefer to not ship it if possible. im going to do some searches on them now
But if you have some info to add about a Finnish let me hear it!!
Also not sure what I'll do with my Harris Hawks they have a special place in my heart. But if you ever want to get together and let your bird flu with them your welcome too! My big female is a jack killing machine!!

[Goshawkin]

Sounds good. I will reach out to you in a few months and we will get them together.

[lewsouder]

I would stick to the Harris' if I were you. Best choice for your situation. If it ain't broke....!
Hit me up if you want to talk. I should be on Cory Dalton's email chain.

[hcmcelroy]

Jimmy,

I almost hate to say this because common knowledge is that you must eat sleep and drink with imprints for fear of them becoming "unimprinted". This train of thought started in California some decades ago and hawklets were suddenly carried about in a basket all day long to work, etc. The truth is that once imprinted they can be left alone for some time just as they would in the wild by parents. During the 60's we found Cooper's left alone with food tossed to them would withdraw after 3 days).The problem is what is properly called withdrawal. Once imprinted various raptors can be left lone for at least 24 hours. By the time they imprint (gos imprint around 20 days of age) they have long been feeding themselves so you could leave them with food while you are at work for 24 hours. It would be good if your wife fed them and sat with them while they ate at least once during your absence.

Any of the Euro gos are much easier to handle and more tame than the N Am gos so they would be easier as a first gos and chamber raised would not be such a bad idea.

Now that I've dropped this little bomb let me hear your thoughts.

Harry.

[lewsouder]

Any of the Euro gos are much easier to handle and more tame than the N Am gos so they would be easier as a first gos and chamber raised would not be such a bad idea.

Dang Harry...almost all imprint Euros I've seen or flown have been a touch"high strung" compared to my NA's. I must be unlucky or just plain crazyy!

[hcmcelroy]

Lew,

Could Souder be Irish?

Harry.

[JChavez]

Harry,
I really appreciate you posting. It gives me a little bit of hope that I could make this work.
I hope I can plan it just right and take some days off from work to spend time with the bird. Also my wife is willing to spend time with the bird and feed it when she is home and I am at work. My dad has also said he would be willing to swing by after work to feed and spend an hour or so with the bird if needed.
I also talked with the wife and if I want to work extra shifts I can do the Finnish bird but would rather start with a N.A female to start

[goshawkr]

Couple thoughts:

If you are wanting an imprint on your schedule you have a couple choices. Take the bird to work with you or if that is not possible you will most certainly need someone to help you. Leaving the bird alone for that much time, even after it is able to feed itself, it is a HUGE no no. Eyass birds have a way of sometimes ignoring food that is right in front of them, even when hungry. They will sit there in the nest bowl with an empty crop and a bowl full of food. You walk over and offer a tidbit from the bowl and they go to eating like gangbusters from the bowl. Combine that with the fact that they just do stupid things sometimes. No setup is completely safe for an eyass and it will require constant monitoring. Plus the interjection of another person as a constant around the bird is never a bad thing. Just make sure that both parties are on the same age when it comes to etiquette and feeding. Should be no problem at all.

Jimmy already mentioned that his wife is willing to help care for the eyass while he is at work. If the eyass is in the age range when most sane falconers are taking them for imprinting (somewhere in size between a baseball and a softball or a touch later) they are completely capable of feeding themselves once taught (it may take a few lessons). It is absolutely true that baby goshawks are quite good at getting into trouble, but if you keep them contained where the trouble is safely locked away from them, they have a real tough time finding it. A well designed imprint tank can do this nicely until they are old enough to graduate to the mew.

If your life is such that you can be around them all the time, that's great. But for those of us in the drinking class that have to work for a living, we have to get more creative. I have raised 5 goshawks, with one more raising project planned this year, and all have but one was left unsupervised while I was at work from day one.

An eyass taken at the later stages of imprinting can even handle 24 hours between feedings, although I wouldn't do that by choice. But its not going to have serious health or feather problems if it forgets how to feed itself while left alone for that period of time, provided its loaded up well (stuffed crop) before that 24 hour period starts.


I would stick to the Harris' if I were you. Best choice for your situation. If it ain't broke....!
Hit me up if you want to talk. I should be on Cory Dalton's email chain.

Why not Lew? A goshawk can do just fine in his situation. I'd say its "broke" because he wants to fly a goshawk and he has Harris' hawks. Actually, personally, I'd call having Harris' hawks just plain broke, but they don't blow my skirt up at all. I know a lot of people love them, and they are excellent falconry birds if they excite you.


I almost hate to say this because common knowledge is that you must eat sleep and drink with imprints for fear of them becoming "unimprinted". This train of thought started in California some decades ago and hawklets were suddenly carried about in a basket all day long to work, etc. The truth is that once imprinted they can be left alone for some time just as they would in the wild by parents. During the 60's we found Cooper's left alone with food tossed to them would withdraw after 3 days).The problem is what is properly called withdrawal. Once imprinted various raptors can be left lone for at least 24 hours. By the time they imprint (gos imprint around 20 days of age) they have long been feeding themselves so you could leave them with food while you are at work for 24 hours. It would be good if your wife fed them and sat with them while they ate at least once during your absence.

Any of the Euro gos are much easier to handle and more tame than the N Am gos so they would be easier as a first gos and chamber raised would not be such a bad idea.

There are few things that are fundamentally wrong with these modern ideas of total immersion with raising an eyass. Fortunately, when I was young and dumb and bought into these methods hook line and sinker, I wasn't able to follow them because of my work and family life schedule.

The main problem with them is they are based on a erroneous assumption. The basic strategy is to turn a solitary animal into a social one. Accipiters in general, and goshawks in particular are social animals. They are not as social as dogs or people, but they are also far more social than truly solitary animals like praying mantis. Housecats are actually a good model. Like house cats, goshawks enjoy and crave social interactions, but they also need their alone time periodically. They often go a bit nuts if they don't get this. Its a bit like you being around that friend of yours that you genuinely enjoy, but gets under your skin if you are around them too long without a break.

If a euro goshawk is what Jimmy wants and has access to, great - but don't let the great be the enemy of the good. A NA goshawk may be a bit more of a challenge (maybe), but its not that big of a difference.

And going back to the original questions....



At what age could I leave food for the day with it and it be able to feed itself?

By about 14 days old they can be trained to eat out of a dish. This is not normal behavior for them, and it wont be reliable until 5-6 days worth of sessions have happened. Even so, if you show your wife what to do, she can help. By the time they are 25 days old you could absolutely leave them with bowl full of a days worth of food while your gone, although they may spill it or otherwise accidentally hide the food from themselves.



And this is my big question what affects would me being gone for 24 hrs have on this bird? I only work 10 days a month so it's not like I'm never home.

You are going to see a bit of withdrawal happening, and will have to make up for that when get back home. It will be a case of several steps of progress (while you are home) followed by a slide of regression (while you are work). Nothing insurmountable, just something you will need to work around.

I think your going to face an increased likelihood that it will be screamer as well. That's not a bad thing for me (I live in the country, and a screaming hawk dosnt bother my neighbors).

[JChavez]

Geoff,
Thank you so much for the reply! I love reading your posts and I'm very happy you got in on this.
As far as food bowl training what does that involve? is it like feeding from the bowl and slowly moving the food bits down so that the bird is almost grabbing out of the bowl? Like a progression of say jumping to the fist where you slowly start with a reach until it's out of reach and they must jump to get it?
Also is the increased likelihood of a screamer because of it getting hungry while I'm gone or just because I'm gone? I'm not too worried about it, one of my Harris Hawks screams and I can't imagine anything is worse than a screaming Harris lol
Also like I told Harry I appreciate some positive thoughts and encouragement for those of us that as you stated are in it the drinking class.

I have a question for those of you able to take a bird to work, do you all own your own business or just have the coolest supervisors ever? Lol

[goshawkr]

Geoff,
Thank you so much for the reply! I love reading your posts and I'm very happy you got in on this.

very kind of you to say.



As far as food bowl training what does that involve? is it like feeding from the bowl and slowly moving the food bits down so that the bird is almost grabbing out of the bowl? Like a progression of say jumping to the fist where you slowly start with a reach until it's out of reach and they must jump to get it?.

You have the right idea, but not the right way to go about it.

Self feeding is not natural for a goshawk eyass until they are about 30 days old or even older than that. About the age when their muscles have developed to the extent that they can pull and tear for themselves. So the concept of looking around for something to eat is something you will have to teach them.

The method I learned, and it works quite well, is to prepare a bowl of bite sized morsels of food and put it in the nest with them. Then take a large chunck and hold it up in about the position that moma would, and when they go to take it, use it to drag their nose down to the bowl. If they let go before it gets there, start over. When their nose is in front of the bowl, let them have it. Repeat. A lot. Eventually they will notice that there are more bites of food in the bowl.

It takes a few repetitions of this before they get the idea that they can just feed themselves from the bowl and look there for food. And the younger they are, the slower this idea catches on.



Also is the increased likelihood of a screamer because of it getting hungry while I'm gone or just because I'm gone? I'm not too worried about it, one of my Harris Hawks screams and I can't imagine anything is worse than a screaming Harris lol

Both of those, and an increased chance that it will form a direct association with you and food. I cant give you any advice on how to avoid screaming. I have never managed to do that, and I don't even try anymore.

You lack imagination if you think it cant be worse than a screaming Harris. :D Goshawk screams are about 4 times as loud as a Harris. I find the cadence a little more tolerable, because Harris' will just scream once per breath when they are really bad. Goshawks will give 3,5, or 7 screams followed by a pause which will vary depending on how strong the urge is, which is usually tied to how hungry they are. The pause may be 15 seconds or several minutes.

I like the sound of a screaming goshawk as long as its not right next to my ear. But its quite noisy. Not anywhere near as bad as a screaming falcon though.

Here is an example of what it sounds like: www.myrthwood.com/goshawks/files/GoshawkWail02.mp3 (http://www.myrthwood.com/goshawks/files/GoshawkWail02.mp3)

[hcmcelroy]

Jimmy,

I've had a few gos along the way but I've concentrated on the Cooper's mostly.

A NA female gos would make a good start. Several breeders suggest the male is often problematical and that has ben my experience.

I assume you will raise the hawklet in the home until it starts to jump around and leave the "nest". I use a giant imprinting box 1 yard square made of coroplast. It captures the mutes and allows for a large container for drinking and the bath.

It is positioned at a window where the hawk can see various birds and rabbits, etc. My feeling is that they should see normal outdoors activities along with the family and your dog.

Geoff's remarks about the gos being social reminds me of visiting a Cooper's research area. There were Cooper's all over the place in a park mostly high in the trees and I asked the researcher if they didn't crab with one another. "No, he replied these hawks are a lot more social than we think but whatever you do don't quote me on that I don't want to be tossed out of my PhD program".

Geoff states the gos begins to feed itself at 14 days when trained. That is in keeping with the Cooper's at 12 days.

In terms of screaming ... a difficult question and I'm far from knowing how to prevent it but I do have a plan. I keep all raptors being imprinted on a diet slightly higher in quality than they would have in the wild so that translates to plenty of birds. My other trick is to absolutely never allow them to become hungry when in the growth stage. Watch the crop carefully and get a feeling for when they want to eat. Avoid rushing into entering and give them time to develop. Reduce weight slowly to promote hunting. 99% will fly to you and likely follow the first few days when flown free when they are actually above the hunting weight.

Returning to withdrawal...my guess is your wife will return home after work so the hawk will not be alone for 24 hours, right?

Harry.

[JChavez]

Geoff thanx for the info regarding the food bowl, I will keep that in mind when I get a bird and will continue to read everything I can until next year

Harry
Thank you for al of the info as well, I have always enjoyed reading your posts. And I really appreciate the positive thought and encouragement.
You are correct that my wife will be home in the afternoon . My dad is also very helpful and has said he would stop by after work and feed the bird for me. That makes only about 6 hours it would be totally alone. From when my wife leaves and he stops by then my wife could feed again at night if needed before bed. And I'll be back for the morning feeding
I'm lucky that I have a family that is supportive and willing to help me.

[hcmcelroy]

Jimmy,

If anything your hawk will be over exposed. A person sitting with an accipiter during 1/2 of one meal will maintain imprinting forever. During the molt I've done this for Cooper's over the decades and they have not withdrawn. The gos doesn't withdraw as easily as the smaller accipiters. By the way the peregrine is an example of a falcon that tends to retain imprinting and/or its behaviors. In England the accipiter called sparowhawk tends to drop imprinting when weight is raised and it is fed away from the austringer. They have bred these hawks naturally for decades.

Good to have a wife and father who supports your interests.

Just east of Willcox there were some hills where I hawked only once or twice per year because they were covered with small rocks that are really hard on a horse. Because I was running late one day I decided to go up in a light rain and at the top my aplomado caught a small quail. She refused the approach and the rain increased just as she carried it to the ridge on the top. If she carried again she could have flown down the far side, the light was fading and I was already wet and cold in the stiff breeze. My wife called and insisted on riding up to give me a sandwitch and better rain gear. I told her she would never find me and it was dangerous all considered. We debated for some time when the hawk carried the quail to my fist!

Harry.

[BestBeagler]

Raising an eyas is the most easy part! You don't need to spend as much time around them as we have been led to believe. The owner of NAFEX imprinted a goshawk and he didn't spend very much time with it turned out to be a great bird there's a thread about it on here somewhere and it was discussed as well. The hard part is when they are "teenagers" if you don't have the time then you will have problems and your wife and family might not be so supportive when the bird turn aggressive or spooky.

I find personally that it's easier to pretty much do as little as you can when they are eyases and enjoy it as much as you can because if you put so much effort in the begging you tend to burn out faster and slack off when you need to be putting in the most effort.

I watched a live nest cam of goshawks in Scotland the parents left them a lone most of the time.

[hcmcelroy]

Isaac,

Well said! We need to spend time and effort during and after hard penning. That is when mistakes are made that cost us dearly.

Harry.

[JChavez]

Isaac
Thanx for the info. I did some reading on other threads and Looks like I would be better taking time off at this stage and working with the bird and getting it out in the field and spending time with it.
Also I can not find the thread on Chris L bird
I searched and even went through his posts. Anyone know the name of the thread, I would love to read it

Also any reading that anyone can recommend?
I read a lot about hacking. I can not hack where I live, but could I take the bird out and just let it fly around for a few hours in the morning out in the desert? Could even go up to the mountains and let it fly around. Would this do any good or just be a waist of time?
Thanx for the help on this thread and everything people have posted over the years on raising goshawks. I have been readingike crazy and there is so much info to take in.

[BestBeagler]

Isaac
Thanx for the info. I did some reading on other threads and Looks like I would be better taking time off at this stage and working with the bird and getting it out in the field and spending time with it.
Also I can not find the thread on Chris L bird
I searched and even went through his posts. Anyone know the name of the thread, I would love to read it

Also any reading that anyone can recommend?
I read a lot about hacking. I can not hack where I live, but could I take the bird out and just let it fly around for a few hours in the morning out in the desert? Could even go up to the mountains and let it fly around. Would this do any good or just be a waist of time?
Thanx for the help on this thread and everything people have posted over the years on raising goshawks. I have been readingike crazy and there is so much info to take in.

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=17890

[BestBeagler]

One thing that I would like to point out is that hunger is a huge motivator in an imprints behavior it's not all about weight.

Next imprint goshawk I get. I switch to using day old chicks (low quality food) when it's safe to do so and transition to once a day FULL feeding when I can. In the past I have done small multiple feedings of high quality foods through out the day.

[hcmcelroy]

Jimmy,

After the hawk is hard penned many of us fly it about daily for an hour or more. Some call this tame hacking and I do so with all imprints. Depending upon the individual this can be a rather wild experience because some fly off and refuse the lure until sunset. One imprinted female gos I had many years ago followed me about like an imprinted duck but the gyraplo of last year gave me a run for the money and did better from the horse. Normally I bring their weight down very slowly if control problems but this practice gets the hawk in condition and ready for the quail season to open. In general it is best to fly them in the same place each day.

Accipiters are usually easy to handle and falcons can range from cooperative to frightening. I normally toss hand sparrows for them and learn a lot about the individual. Aplomados range far and wide and once they are beyond the area where normally flown they will not come to the lure. They also display a variety of surprising behaviors demonstrating that the aplo is no simple imprint to handle.

Harry.

[JChavez]

Isaac thanx for that link! Great read ry made me think.
I'm not sure I understand the lower quality food post. Is this so that you can keep the bird stuffed but still Lower its weight slowly

Harry
I have some areas that are full of rabbits and not to far from home, but away from the city
If I take some vacation during this time of development I can spend everyday letting it fly and hopefully start to catch

[hcmcelroy]

Jimmy,

Or if it is legal rabbits can be hand released during development/exercise?

Harry.

[goshawkr]

Isaac
Thanx for the info. I did some reading on other threads and Looks like I would be better taking time off at this stage and working with the bird and getting it out in the field and spending time with it.
Also I can not find the thread on Chris L bird
I searched and even went through his posts. Anyone know the name of the thread, I would love to read it

Also any reading that anyone can recommend?
I read a lot about hacking. I can not hack where I live, but could I take the bird out and just let it fly around for a few hours in the morning out in the desert? Could even go up to the mountains and let it fly around. Would this do any good or just be a waist of time?
Thanx for the help on this thread and everything people have posted over the years on raising goshawks. I have been readingike crazy and there is so much info to take in.

Hacking is great if you can do it, but its by no means a nessicity. What you will gain if you can do it is a bird that has already figured out how to fly when you start hunting and is not doing stupid stuff like crashing into trees looking for a perch and falling to the ground, or walking around on the ground like a duck looking for hand outs. Well, let me back that up. If you hack, you will still see a bit of this, but not nearly as much.

The real key is that you need to keep your expectations very low when you first start hitting the field with your goshawk, whether that is in a hack/play situation or a "lets go catch stuff" situation. It takes quite a bit of time for them to learn the subtle nuances of flying and you will just make yourself frustrated if you don't accommodate that.

I am lucky to have a place where I can hack in my backyard - no dangerous power poles for almost 3/4 of a mile, no neighbors nearby with chickens or pigeons, and I live in a forest. This was actually high on the list of amenities when I bought the place. But if I did not have that right in my back yard, I don't think I would bother hacking at all. I'd just hit the field with very low expectations as soon as game season was open and the bird had hard penned.

Also, Isaac is right - the time to really focus on devoting time to your young goshawk is the "teen years". In goshawks this is the period of time from ~early Sept to early Nov. This is when the kitten or the demon will reveal itself. It takes a lot of work to keep the kitten around, but if you slip and the demon shows up it will take a lot more work to get it to go away. So much work that most people give up. My current goshawk was a terrible demon during this period, but I did manage to get that spackled over and now she is my favorite hawk of all time, with only occaisional reminders of her dark evil side. At the moment, she preens my fingers when I go visit her on her fertile eggs. During this window of the teen years, the very most critical portion is probably late Sept to mid Oct. That's the where you really need to be on your toes, although if things go sour here its often from small mistakes made much early. The seeds planted in June/July that will blossom here. I don't say that to scare you - but to give you fair warning to stay vigiliant. And most importantly, be adaptive and agile.

However, even at that, during this period of time between Sept and Nov you can handle taking 10 24 hour periods in a month without contact if you are very cautious about renewing things when you come back. Spend a lot of positive non-food and non-hunting time around your hawk during this period, and be very careful that the time you do spend related to food you are not letting your hawk think it got away with bullying you for the food.

When I start young hawks, my game season opens Aug 1 which is usually within 1 week of when the hawks hard pen. For the first 6 weeks, we hunt every day. After that, I start to ween the hawk and myself down to a sane level that meshes with my work and family obligations. This is usually a 4 days a week hunting routine, and quite often that will slow down to weekends only during the Nov-Feb time frame when I have a tough time hitting the field before dark. Off days are usually spent either playing games for tidbits or if its just one day off I will give them a big enough crop that it takes them ~two days to come back to weight. However, even during that early period when I am hitting the field daily, my family life will not always take a back seat and I sometimes need to skip a day. I have never seen that affect the outcome in any measurable way, I would expect your schedule will mesh into this just fine.