1st imprint...1st time hack???

[Lee Slikkers]

Ok, so here is another question that is a bit out on a tangent…

For the 1st time imprinter working with a Gos’…is it worth the risk to do a short hack period?

I live on 20 acres (3 are mine, 17 my ol’ man’s) and am surrounded pretty much by state land (no hunting state land) on a fair amount of the borders. None of my neighbors shoot (and if I was in question I can easily knock on doors and “prep” them for the possibility of them seeing an unusually tame hawk hanging around) Gos’ aren’t cheap and if this one was lost it would have a significant impact on my season but from all I read there are no doubts as to the benefits to the young birds mental state during those formative days.

Thoughts?

[Saluqi]

Go for it. Assuming you're picking him very young by the time he's ready to branch he'll be so tame and dependent on you that he won't go too far too soon. Put a bell and transmitter on him and you'll be all set. I was just telling my wife yesterday that the next gos I get will be a tiercel that will stay out at hack for a long time. My female was out for 27 days and was just really starting to benefit from it, then she killed a neighbors chicken and I had to put an end to the hack. My female learned how to fly and land and kill while out, she came in every evening and was tethered to a pole perch in the house. We went right into "hunting" from the hack, more like outings with lots of chasing and very little catching.

[John]

I hope Barry will weigh in on this. I've never done it but from what I've read on here about goshawks and other places about coops, I'd do it if I were in your position. Sounds like you have a perfect spot for it. If I get a coops in the next couple weeks, I may try it here so I'd love to see what everyone suggests before trying it.

[goshawks00]

If you have good neighbors ( or live out in the sticks) hacking a hawk is really a fun endeavor... Having done 5 goshawks now along with a spar and a half attempted sharpie I can tell you as Paul has said they will come in leaps and bounds ahead of the hawk that has to weight until hard penning... Don't start to late, I think, as they will develop flight paths and preferences as to where they like to hang out and feel secure.

John I think of all the accips a bit of hackinbg will bebefit the coop the most. Not having to deal with pent up energy and some independence, may make the imprint coop a fun hawk to fly.( I've never gotten over the over the shoulder Dragon stare they give you). Be careful though while it takes a while for a gos to become a killer ... a coop and for me it was my sharpie, takes very little time to figure it out. Also with a sharpie they will quickly become independent if you aren't careful.
BTW I would skip the bell , and view it as a dinner bell to every predator in the 'hood, that's why you put the wire on them.02
Barry

[Falcon Boy]

Perhaps i am completely wrong in my train of thought on this, but personally i don't see a reason to imprint a bird than hack it. The main advantage i see with imprints is you mold them to hunt HOW YOU want and WHAT YOU want, not how they previously have learned from being wild. A hack, in my inexperienced opinion, completely erases this because they use the time to learn how to hunt on their own. Lets say you want to hunt jacks and she clips into a jack, gets her ass kicked, and never chases a jack with you in the field. Had you been there, perhaps you would have gotten there in time to help her out.

I've never hacked a bird and doubt i will for the above reasons. In my mind it makes a bird more like a passage, and if you're doing an imprint, i see no reason why you would want that?

[goshawks00]

Noah , you have part of the equation correct... Some reasons for hack... learning how to fly in cover /winds/landings etc. they get a bit of independence, they are quiet when brought in,almost to what you would call passage yet there is no fear as in a passage. They start to develop a hunting and eventually killing attitude.... They learn about not being able to kill little birds that will buzz them, that bugs don't taste good, and many other things that a hawk tied to a perch or left in a mews until hunting season doesn't know. Falcons I can't say what a tame hack does for them as I don't dabble in them but it is a great way to raise a hawk. The liklihood of them getting ruined by a run in with game is slight, though possible. The greatest of fears are these... predation, accidents, lost if telemetry quits, and to much independence once they learn they can effectively kill game from a perch.
Having lost my best gos ever for a month during the molt one late summer, she came back with a new understanding of how to survive, and would completely refuse to hunt from the fist , and never did really ever get over that urge to take a perch . As I said it's not for everyone, but for me, it's a great training tool to develop my hawk during it's natural training period.

Barry

[goshawks00]

BY the way Noah ... so you take it hawking after hack or not, doesn't matter, and she grabs a jack say a couple hundred yards away gets the crap taken out of her... now what ... you didn't get to her and so are you saying she won't take jacks because of that? Am I'm missing something here.
Barry

[Falcon Boy]

I will not deny the fact that she may have the same thing happen as soon as you start hawking, i'm just saying if i'm trying to make a bird to a particular quarry i'd rather at least be able to go "damnit i needed to run faster...thats my bad" rather than "i shouldn't have hacked her, i can't even get her to look at this"

Your points are well taken though, thanks for typing it out. I guess it would become a what ever makes you sleep at night better. personally i'd rather be able to blame myself for being slow.

[Saluqi]

The thing you have to consider Noah is that with a gos, or other shortwings, (and maybe hacked longwings for that matter) the birds are hog fat and not likely to really put in much effort in tackling game. They might follow a fleeing jack and try to tag it, but they are not going all out trying to catch it, they are just not hungry enough. This behavior continues into the fall when you fly them, they are out there chasing but not comitting. It's just like when they fledge from the nest and parent birds are still providing food for them, they'll chase things but hunting isn't part of their repitoire yet.

One of the huge advantages of day hacking an accip is that the post-fledge period is really critical to their mental and physical development, so as long as they have room to fly around and plenty of things to keep their minds occupied they are far better off than being tied to perch watching TV all day while you are at work. When I hacked Frieda last summer she spent the majority of the 27 days within 50 yds of my house. I'd get home from work and look for her, get all freaked out and pull out the receiver just to find the signal coming the garage where she'd be asleep on top of some paint cans or something. She also chased my homers around and always got smoked by them, until one day she pushed through the bobs and killed a squeaker

[BestBeagler]

Lee,
This thread is kind of like my “what should I do” thread. The difference is its your money were talking about here. I would say go for it. If I get a coops it is going to be hacked as soon as it can handle the cold nights without a warming device. I am going to try to spend every waking minute with it until then. I don’t think I will bring him in for the night either. I will try to get it to roost in his hack box (we will see how that works out). He will be fed on the lure as soon as he can eat by himself and I will use what they call a “cat mate.” It has two trays with a lids over them. There is a timer that pops the lid open. I will incorporate baggies in the picture as well as soon as he can kill them. Then I will set up mock hunts. These mock hunts will consist of a baggie tied somewhere in the yard or field. I will set up the baggie before hand and then walk up on it with the eyas. I want the eyas to find it himself. I other words I don’t want to be seen as a baggie provider merely a spectator. Weight reduction will happen around hard penning as usual but only very slowly. I think McD said that response in the field should not be great but just manageable at around hard penning. Then if problems start to arise indicating that the weight is to high I will drop him slowly. I just read Lee’s eyas sharp shinned thread from last year. I sounds as if he did everything right. His thread is a good refresher and model to follow. Didn’t mean to hijack your thread. Just though I would let you know what my plan was. From everything that I have read it seems that you get some of the best results if you follow the steps that would happen in the wild. I am not sure exactly how to put it but a wild eyas grows up perfect without any behavioral issues in the wild. We as falconers create issues, we screw the birds up. If we can follow a time table that is similar to mother natures time table and just be there with the eyas so that it learns that we are nothing to fear then we have become successful imprinters. Off course we want to mold them a bit at hard penning time so that they learn to be successful when hunting with humans and so they can adapt to the way we want them to hunt, but this is no big deal because they would be doing the exact same thing in the wild. The only difference is that in the wild they might find that sitting in a tree with heavy foliage waiting for a bird to get to close is the best way to success. Through our intervention at hard penning time we can teach them to be successful from the fist in different situations. Sorry, once I get going I can’t stop :) Isaac

[goshawks00]

Issac, I fear you may be doing irreversable harm to your hawk as far as temps go..and leaving out over night, not to mention possible fear issues.
Also there is more to it than manipulating them at penning... in fact much of the killing business will probably much past penning... at least it was for my goshawks.
Not so with the spar and sharpie, the coops will be some where in the middle I would suppose.
Barry

[BestBeagler]

Issac, I fear you may be doing irreversable harm to your hawk as far as temps go..and leaving out over night, not to mention possible fear issues.
Also there is more to it than manipulating them at penning... in fact much of the killing business will probably much past penning... at least it was for my goshawks.
Not so with the spar and sharpie, the coops will be some where in the middle I would suppose.
Barry

Barry,
Thanks for the advice. So I guess I will be bringing it in for the night. Isaac

[FredFogg]

My experience with one coops tells me that dropping their weight slowly after hard penning is where issues get created. The next imprint I do I won't drop the weight slowly, I will drop it quickly and get the bird killing on its own as soon as possible. I dropped my coops a few grams a day and had her chasing at 400 g, I thought I was there. She chased and chased and chased, but wasn't catching. I blamed it on lack of good slips and it turned out she was just too heavy. Had to take her down to 365 g and then she was killing and then raised her up to 370 g and ended the season at 375 g. But the damage was done. Once they are hard penned, drop that weight, don't screw around. If you read McDermott's second book, over 90 percent of all problems is due to weight. Just what I have observed from raising one imprint. I have a whole new way I am going to do it that is different from the recipe, I will let you all know how it turns out, that is, if I can find a sharpie's nest! LOL

[goshawks00]

Fred be careful after reading the thread about imprint goshawks, I would suggest you be careful using the same techniques on a sharpie.
.02
Barry

[FredFogg]

Fred be careful after reading the thread about imprint goshawks, I would suggest you be careful using the same techniques on a sharpie.
.02
Barry

Not sure what you are talking about Barry? confusedd Didn't mention anything about using the same techniques on a sharpie that those on the imprint goshawk thread would use? I guess I should have quoted Isaac's post where he says to take the weight down slowly. I don't think it matters if it is a gos, coops, or sharpie, I think taking the weight down slowly after hard penning creates problems.

[goshawks00]

Thought this was you...
Barry

""Thanks Jim, I like what I see and if I pull a sharpie this spring, I am going to try your method. So I may be back to bug you later in the year! Sorry! ""LOL
__________________
Fred
Fly, Catch, Eat!

[FredFogg]

Thought this was you...
Barry

""Thanks Jim, I like what I see and if I pull a sharpie this spring, I am going to try your method. So I may be back to bug you later in the year! Sorry! ""LOL
__________________
Fred
Fly, Catch, Eat!

Yeah, that is me! But like everything here on the internet, you have to learn to read between the lines. I know enough that training a gos is going to be different than training a sharpie. I just like a lot of what he says and plan to apply it to if I imprint a sharpie, but accordingly, if you know what I mean. One big thing is he puts the gos out in the mew at 7 weeks, a sharpie is going to stay in my house on a bow perch when I am hunting it, it will then go into the mew to be free lofted during the molt. So that is just one thing that I would change, there are others.

[Tim Laycock]

Lee,
Going agains the tide here (Whats new <g>)
I see no point to hacking Goshawks.
An imprint goshawk at hack is going to do little else but sit in a tree and come down to a lure (Not exactly colouring its canvas with learning there eh?)
Wil not get much in the way of fitness either.

I think this time is better spent upping the socialisation and taking steps towards getting the bird ready to be entered as soon as possible.

Some would say that tame hack gives a Goshawk time to grow up mentaly.
I would say it gives them time to figure thay like sitting in trees as it affords a better view <g>
To me, At hacking age the only perches a Goshawk should know is a bow, my fist and a fresh carcase. all great places to sit :D

[Lee Slikkers]

well dang, now if those replies don't give me enough to chew on for a few hours I don't know what will! :D

Lots of opinions, perspectives and experience chiming in here...and I really appreciate it. Obviously I haven't made my mind up yet or set anything in stone so we'll see where this takes me as I get close to that age with the tiercel.

[wesleyc6]

I just figure you will be a "hack" at raising onetoungeout

[Lee Slikkers]

I just figure you will be a "hack" at raising onetoungeout

LOL, thanks for the vote of confidence Wes! Btw, thanks for the phone call yesterday...it was much needed and appreciated, more than you know.

[wesleyc6]

LOL, thanks for the vote of confidence Wes! Btw, thanks for the phone call yesterday...it was much needed and appreciated, more than you know.


AH man, I enjoyed it as usual! I really figure you will do fine with your imprint:D

[Lee Slikkers]

AH man, I enjoyed it as usual! I really figure you will do fine with your imprint:D

Back atcha Wes...110%

[BestBeagler]

My experience with one coops tells me that dropping their weight slowly after hard penning is where issues get created. The next imprint I do I won't drop the weight slowly, I will drop it quickly and get the bird killing on its own as soon as possible. I dropped my coops a few grams a day and had her chasing at 400 g, I thought I was there. She chased and chased and chased, but wasn't catching. I blamed it on lack of good slips and it turned out she was just too heavy. Had to take her down to 365 g and then she was killing and then raised her up to 370 g and ended the season at 375 g. But the damage was done. Once they are hard penned, drop that weight, don't screw around. If you read McDermott's second book, over 90 percent of all problems is due to weight. Just what I have observed from raising one imprint. I have a whole new way I am going to do it that is different from the recipe, I will let you all know how it turns out, that is, if I can find a sharpie's nest! LOL

Fred,
McDermott also says in his last book to stay away from what he calls the "hot zone" There has to be a balance I guess. This is were the imprinter has to learn to read the eyas. Isaac

[Lee Slikkers]

Like I've mentioned before, I've read (and am still reading for who knows how many times) all the McD stuff again in his books.

One of the quiestions I have is why are there so many POSITIVE references to the hawks action of mantling on a kill. I know it is a normal thing but imho, it's one of the ugliest habits, one I try to form right out of any of my birds. Is there a reason to be excited when the hawk mantles and a reason to encourage this on these imprint accipiters?

I know folks in the UK who imprint Gos' as well and they strive for a completely non-mantling bird from day one (something I would also sign up for)

Just curious if some of the folks who have tried or attempted to follow the McD method to the letter would mind sharing.

Thanks,

[Tim Laycock]

Lee,
If you make a recipe imprint and its not mantling on a kill it will either be carrying it or leaving it to dance all over your face.

Forget the scales! Mantling, the degree and attitude of the mantling is the best barometer to your imprints state of mind and how close you are with your conditioning.

If a recipe imprint isnt mantling over a kill its obviously not too hyped up about the fact that its been caught.

I dont know anyone in the UK with a recipe imprint that does not mantle.
Thats a lie, I do.
His female trys to carry every mortal thing she catches because she is not to bothered about eating her catch.
The bird has a full Harris tail by the end of october...every year.

The train of a mantling goshawk can be managed with a sheath but when its dragging the kill away you can do nothing except watch the train collapse.

More feathers get broken on overweight imprints screwing around on early kills than from a full season of venomous mantling.

[Lee Slikkers]

Lee,
If you make a recipe imprint and its not mantling on a kill it will either be carrying it or leaving it to dance all over your face.

Forget the scales! Mantling, the degree and attitude of the mantling is the best barometer to your imprints state of mind and how close you are with your conditioning.

If a recipe imprint isnt mantling over a kill its obviously not too hyped up about the fact that its been caught.

I dont know anyone in the UK with a recipe imprint that does not mantle.
Thats a lie, I do.
His female trys to carry every mortal thing she catches because she is not to bothered about eating her catch.
The bird has a full Harris tail by the end of october...every year.

The train of a mantling goshawk can be managed with a sheath but when its dragging the kill away you can do nothing except watch the train collapse.

More feathers get broken on overweight imprints screwing around on early kills than from a full season of venomous mantling.

Tim, thank you very much for that...I have put those variables together, not sure why it didn't make sense to me this morning as I was thinking about this issue. I guess I like a well manned hawk, BUT if that is the designed outcome of a 1st year imprint than it is something I can live with...I appreaciate the input and honesty.

[FredFogg]

Like I've mentioned before, I've read (and am still reading for who knows how many times) all the McD stuff again in his books.

One of the quiestions I have is why are there so many POSITIVE references to the hawks action of mantling on a kill. I know it is a normal thing but imho, it's one of the ugliest habits, one I try to form right out of any of my birds. Is there a reason to be excited when the hawk mantles and a reason to encourage this on these imprint accipiters?

I know folks in the UK who imprint Gos' as well and they strive for a completely non-mantling bird from day one (something I would also sign up for)

Just curious if some of the folks who have tried or attempted to follow the McD method to the letter would mind sharing.

Thanks,

Lee, all these threads where you see gos's standing on a kill and not mantling and all this talk about the bird never mantling is bull! I would be willing to bet that all those photo's are taken after the bird has settled down. Most accipiters that I have seen fly, when they catch something, they are jacked up and mantle over their catch. The ones that are at the right weight will start plucking and will eventually stop mantling and will tuck their wings in while they are plucking, that is when the photo's are taken. But they still mantle some. To expect a bird that never mantles, well, I would like to see it in person.

[Lee Slikkers]

Lee, all these threads where you see gos's standing on a kill and not mantling and all this talk about the bird never mantling is bull! I would be willing to bet that all those photo's are taken after the bird has settled down. Most accipiters that I have seen fly, when they catch something, they are jacked up and mantle over their catch. The ones that are at the right weight will start plucking and will eventually stop mantling and will tuck their wings in while they are plucking, that is when the photo's are taken. But they still mantle some. To expect a bird that never mantles, well, I would like to see it in person.

Thanks FRed, more than likely that is the case...

The mantling thing is just mental baggage for me. I've always seen a mantling bird as a bird that has horrible manners or one that has been robbed so horribly that it trusts no one (although I have flown a male HH that did the mantling gig no matter what, sharp, fat, all from day one but he was taken from the chamber at 9 weeks which I think had a lot to do with his "issues.")

[Bryant Tarr]

Well Lee...look at my Avatar and you see a jacked-up Emily mantling over a bunny, but she is a great imprint and tame as dirt. It's just a natural part of their behavior that we have to deal with.

[Lee Slikkers]

thanks Bryant...I'm ok with it now :D As long as it is a "normal" and accepted behavior than I have no axe to grind with it. Thanks for putting my mind at ease.

[goshawks00]

Lee having read the thread in IFF it may be possible to create an imprint NA gos that doesn't mantle... Jack M. said he did it with a gos he got from me two years ago. With the plan laid out in the post in IFF, examine it closely , try to figure out why each piece of "that recipe" has anything to do with not mantling, be objective, then if you think it is worth a try go for it.... I will be on the sidelines if I can help any...
Barry

BTW the second chick just hatched ... I let the granddaughter handle the whole thing ( under supervision). Take out chick,clean navel.. remove egg shell and contents of egg and put up to dry before DNA shipping, put this one in with other chick, clean hatcher... and general set-up for next egg... did great...!!!!!!!
more to come....
thumbsupp

[Lee Slikkers]

Lee having read the thread in IFF it may be possible to create an imprint NA gos that doesn't mantle... Jack M. said he did it with a gos he got from me two years ago. With the plan laid out in the post in IFF, examine it closely , try to figure out why each piece of "that recipe" has anything to do with not mantling, be objective, then if you think it is worth a try go for it.... I will be on the sidelines if I can help any...

Barry, I've read that same thread a number of times...it seems very do-able to me but without having done an imprint or a McD imprint I'm sure I don't see the same pitfalls that you might using this other method. I personally think that without being able to use baggies and by not carcass feeding at an early age and waiting until the eyas is older may get him closer to having a nonmantling, possibly more silent imprint, but that is just a guess on my part.

I think possibly trying that method and adding in the tame hack could possibly produce a very well balanced imprint.

BTW the second chick just hatched ... I let the granddaughter handle the whole thing ( under supervision). Take out chick,clean navel.. remove egg shell and contents of egg and put up to dry before DNA shipping, put this one in with other chick, clean hatcher... and general set-up for next egg... did great...!!!!!!!
more to come....
thumbsupp

Barry

Now THAT is cool...you might just be the coolest Grandpa out there and you KNOW all her kid memeories of you and her will be legend!!! clappclapp Great stuff Barry.

I hatched out 4 guinea's last night, does that count as something cool or interesting?? LOL

[BestBeagler]

Barry.

I hatched out 4 guinea's last night, does that count as something cool or interesting?? LOL

Lee, only if you hatched them under your armpit :). Isaac

[Lee Slikkers]

Lee, only if you hatched them under your armpit :). Isaac

guess I'm outta luck then...