Imprints and the molt...

[Lee Slikkers]

Morning Gang,

I was curious what most of you do with your imprints (accips) during the molt. How much daily contact do you strive for? Do you keep yours in the house during the molt? Do you free loft them or leave them tethered in the mew?

As I mentioned in an earlier thread I am now the proud owner of a 2007 imprint Gos. I currently have her free-lofted in the mews and have been stopping in 2-3 times during the day (on the weekend) to sit and just hang out with her. I obviously want to make the smoothest transition possible for her and I want to build a good bond with her as well…any help, thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[Saluqi]

Hey Lee,

I tether my birds during the season and freeloft for the molt. Both of them remain pretty tame, especially while in breeding mode, I visit them regularly. I never weigh them during the molt but regulate their food intake based on their behavior.

[Lee Slikkers]

Thanks Paul, that is pretty much how I am doing it...guess I will continue like I am.

[FredFogg]

Hey Lee,

I tether my birds during the season and freeloft for the molt. Both of them remain pretty tame, especially while in breeding mode, I visit them regularly. I never weigh them during the molt but regulate their food intake based on their behavior.

Paul, can you explain further by what you look for in their behavior and how it corrolates to the regulation of their food. With my prior coops and now this gos, I also freeloft but just feed pretty much a whole quail each day. But the gos flys at the bars when I get near but flys away from me if I go inside. His aggression seems to be territorial but not to the extent that he would actually attack me, it is all show.

[Lee Slikkers]

His aggression seems to be territorial but not to the extent that he would actually attack me, it is all show.

Is territorial aggression something I should be on the look out for if I bring her food into to her and place it on her plucking board? Would I be better off with a food chute in the long run?

I've always just brought my food into all my previous birds, RT, HH, falcons, etc and haven't ever had any issues with this...interesting point Fred.

[PeteJ]

I keep mine tied pretty much year round except during the breeding season. I have tried free lofting them and it's 'okay' but I don't like them thrashing around. Many of them, if their weight gets high enough, they become intolerant to many things and particularly sounds. Any of these things will set them off and can result in injury as they often engage in this fear response with blind panic. If they are going to panic I want them to be somewhere where they won't or can't get hurt. I will admit that it is more of a drag on me to have them tied as I often have to check on them. But, this is a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' scenario, either way you can have difficulties with a particular individual.
As for weight management? I have found that they actually eat more the hotter it gets because they burn energy to cool themselves off. By their behavior (if bating a lot and all of it away from you) then they are just too high and probably need to be backed off on the rations a bit. Again, the higher they are the less tolerant they are. Two important things to remember when trying to engage in a long term relationship with a Goshawk...high weight creates stress and stress kills. The actual biggest threat to her life will come each fall when you bring her weight down. It should be a slow process and many people try to make it fast process. The stress created by taking their weight down and trying to forcibly make them mold to your hurried ways will cause stress and usually that is when asper will kick in. I've known many falconers that have done this to their goshawks resulting in a premature death at the end of the molt. It can happen in any year, not just the first year. So plan in advance to begin taking them down over a month long period and ease them back into the handling thing (if you haven't been handling them all summer).

[Saluqi]

Paul, can you explain further by what you look for in their behavior and how it corrolates to the regulation of their food. With my prior coops and now this gos, I also freeloft but just feed pretty much a whole quail each day. But the gos flys at the bars when I get near but flys away from me if I go inside. His aggression seems to be territorial but not to the extent that he would actually attack me, it is all show.

Fred what you are describing are the behavior cues that the bird is too fat. If I walk into the mews and the bird is jumpy/nervous, then it's too fat. Lots of folks make the bird jump to them for food throughout the molt, I don't necessarily strive for that level of control, but rather work at a slightly higher weight range where the bird is calm and very tolerant of my presence to the point where I can be within a few feet of it without the bird flying away.

As for food amounts, I vary it depending the bird's behavior and how hot it is, I routinely skip a day of feeding as well.

[Saluqi]

...The actual biggest threat to her life will come each fall when you bring her weight down. It should be a slow process and many people try to make it fast process. The stress created by taking their weight down and trying to forcibly make them mold to your hurried ways will cause stress and usually that is when asper will kick in. I've known many falconers that have done this to their goshawks resulting in a premature death at the end of the molt. It can happen in any year, not just the first year. So plan in advance to begin taking them down over a month long period and ease them back into the handling thing (if you haven't been handling them all summer).

I agree 100% with this statement. It usually takes me at least a month of slow reduction to get bird back on the wing. I use vertical jumps in the mews while the bird is freelofted to reclaim them in the fall. The advantage, as I see it, is that the birds metabolism increases with the physical activity and they self regulate their food intake, when they quit doing vertical jumps they quit getting fed for the day, and the next day they are hungrier than the day before. The other big advantage is that I'm spending active quality time with the bird, I think 5 minutes of active quality time is equal to 5 hours of passive time sitting on a perch in the house getting "manned", in my opinion manning an imprint gos is kind of a ridiculous notion.

[PeteJ]

I agree with Paul on the notion of manning an imprint. They're already tame, but sometimes their weight gets in the way of them showing it. I also will routinely skip a day of feeding during the molt just to sort of re-calibrate their system. If they seem to be getting a bit twitchy then they don't eat that day.

[Lee Slikkers]

Pete & Paul...excellent information, this is exactly the type of info and details that I was hoping hear. I love this forum and the folks who freely share their experiences.

One a side note, having a gos jump to the glove for food in the chambers is considered an ok practice?

[PeteJ]

Pete & Paul...excellent information, this is exactly the type of info and details that I was hoping hear. I love this forum and the folks who freely share their experiences.

One a side note, having a gos jump to the glove for food in the chambers is considered an ok practice?
Well, if they are tied it isn't a problem. If they are free-lofted that is a different story as they will begin to launch at you as you enter the room (if they are hungry of course).

[Saluqi]

Pete & Paul...excellent information, this is exactly the type of info and details that I was hoping hear. I love this forum and the folks who freely share their experiences.

One a side note, having a gos jump to the glove for food in the chambers is considered an ok practice?

I've never had a problem with it.

[Lee Slikkers]

excellent

[Rage]

As of Yesterday my bird started bouncing around the Mew. Not to get away from me but just generally up at the top of the window to land on the perch. From what I get out of this thread so far that may be a sign that she is too high. Would that be a safe idea?

[Saluqi]

As of Yesterday my bird started bouncing around the Mew. Not to get away from me but just generally up at the top of the window to land on the perch. From what I get out of this thread so far that may be a sign that she is too high. Would that be a safe idea?

It's hard to say without knowing the bird, but it may be a weight issue. Last summer was my female gosses 1st molt and she was more active in the mews than my tiercel ever was, and more so when her weight crept up too high. In general, by now, their weight is pretty high and missing a meal or two days of eating small portions won't hurt them at all.

[frootdog]

Lee,

I think I answered this question on a different thread but here's what I'm doing with my 2 imprint accips. First let me say I make a plan for mine on a case by case basis.

Dexter the Gos

Dexter was a bit of a basket case to start with so he is one I'm doing things a bit different with. He is perched (block) in the living room during the evenings and nights. In the morning I weigh him and move him to the weathering yard, tethered to a bow. If he is acting spooky/fearfull he does not eat that day. When I do feed him I make him at the very least come to me for the food. About 1/2 the time though I will chop up the food very fine so he can eat it really fast and sit there with him while he eats.

Turbo Dog the Coop

I raised Turbo and know all her quirks well at this point in the game. She stays on a block in the office year round. I do not do anything special with her other than if she does not eat as soon as I toss her her food then I pick it back up and feed her the next day. I do not weigh her during the molt.

[Lee Slikkers]

Thanks Krys...I think I replied back on that other thread as well, I hope I can keep her tame enough in the mews as it would keep my wifes house a bit cleaner but if it comes down to it I'll move her inside.

[FredFogg]

Fred what you are describing are the behavior cues that the bird is too fat. If I walk into the mews and the bird is jumpy/nervous, then it's too fat. Lots of folks make the bird jump to them for food throughout the molt, I don't necessarily strive for that level of control, but rather work at a slightly higher weight range where the bird is calm and very tolerant of my presence to the point where I can be within a few feet of it without the bird flying away.

As for food amounts, I vary it depending the bird's behavior and how hot it is, I routinely skip a day of feeding as well.

Paul, Thanks! If his flying weight was 27 oz., what would you say should be his top weight during the molt? I am sure I have him to high and am going to start cutting back his rations.

[frootdog]

Paul, Thanks! If his flying weight was 27 oz., what would you say should be his top weight during the molt? I am sure I have him to high and am going to start cutting back his rations.

Hey Fred. The advice McDermott gave me when I asked him that same question was don't overthink it. Base your feeding based on the birds behavior. He even said don't bother weighing the bird, but I can't help myself. The funny thing is I DO weigh Dexter every day and sometimes his fearful behavior rears it's head at the same weight he was the day before and acting perfectly fine so I just don't feed him those days. Sorry to butt in Paul.

[goshawks00]

Krys that is about right... as far as how I also feed during the molt...To me- response to me is what I strive for. 10/15% above hunting weight is a baseline, BUT, they can/will get in a groove and it doesn't matter what their weight is then. It's like hawking, once they are dialed in, many goshawks can be flown at rediculous weights.

I use a very simple idea, if they won't come to the fist they don't get fed.. Now I didn't say I fed on the fist but rather called to the fist... Then it's either we do some exercises for weight fed or they get their food thrown for them to 'chase' and 'catch', then eat...

Another good 'benchmark' is interacting with them while eating... if they get possessive and start dragging food around in the mews, I view that as being overweight and they are thinking about things rather than eating and will surely need to be brought down.

There are lots of things to observe to see the hawks mental state as far as weight issues... can you take the hawk out of it's element or familiarity and have it act normal? By that I mean can you bring the hawk out and feed in the yard rather than in it's chambers? Is it flighty in the chambers? Does it call to you at certain times? Dies it rear it's hackles when you approach the mews? Can you even weigh the bird w/o it jumping off the perch? Things like that..

While I'm not a control freak, at least during the molt, it makes perfect sense to me, that we spend a lot of time conditioning our hawks to perform during hunting season.. why allow them to change that behavior during the molt.... Another way to look at it is every ounce you put on now will have to come off later... BTW Pete is right on about weight and stress. I have molted many goshawks at just a couple ozs above hunting weight w/o any issues, and see keeping their heads screwed on right more important than having to retrain in the fall.... I also am an advocate of fastings and gorges during the molt...it happens in the wild due to weather conditions and prey availability... why not incorporate it into your molt program?
.02
Barry

[Lee Slikkers]

Excellent thoughts and points Barry, I can see the reasons behind the method and it makes sense to me.

[hawkstir]

Krys, Barry,

Would you intermew a passage RT using the same methods?

[goshawks00]

Fred with a passage RT I don't think it matters... not much experience with them... My one and only RT, as an apprentice was a great bird... I just pitched food to her and picked her up when fall came..
It might be interesting to see where you could get with one by constantly handling her all molt!!
.02
Barry

[hawkstir]

Barry, that's why I asked. With my first RT I interacted with him everyday throught the moult. He was calm as can be. This year I'm using a food chute and she bounces all over the mew when I go in. For a while she was coming to the glove for food, but not anymore. I'm sure it's a weight thing, so if she missed a meal I bet she'd be looking for the glove.

[tumble]

It might be interesting to see where you could get with one by constantly handling her all molt!!

That's what I did last year and would say it was very well worth it. Well not constantly, but I fed her on the glove almost every day through the moult. Then jump-ups for month prior to hunting season. Hunting weight went up 140 grams by November and she'd follow me to the moon. Very little keel present, especially compared to other same age RT's trapped at similar weights. Unbelievable endurance. Some days we'd hunt 5 hours with at least a dozen stoops on SS hare's before bagging one. My sense is that the interaction during the moult (feeding on the glove, etc) and just a lot of hunting time went a long way toward flying her in such high condition, which of course meant strength and endurance. A novice's 2 cents.

[tumble]

Barry, post #20 was terrific.