Duel impint Aplomados

[jfseaman]

The new kids.

The standard seems to dual/creche/cohort rear them, then train them.

They can be flown together or separately.

Later in life they should breed naturally but you have to incubate and raise the offspring.

http://www.softforge.net/falconry/thekids.jpg

[cnoel08]

aww cute lil things!

[wesleyc6]

ah, the grey down is really neat looking.

[Zarafia]

I have read that aplomados are social like harris hawks.
Is this correct? And if so, do they actually hunt in co-operation like HHs?
I have only even seen one in person, and he was a gorgeous youngster.
Please post as many pics as you can, I am quite fond of them.

[jfseaman]

ah, the grey down is really neat looking.
And floating all over the house.

[jfseaman]

I have read that aplomados are social like harris hawks.
Is this correct? And if so, do they actually hunt in co-operation like HHs?
I have only even seen one in person, and he was a gorgeous youngster.
Please post as many pics as you can, I am quite fond of them.
They are supposed to group hunt, in the wild and when creche reared. Time will tell.

[jfseaman]

The male is on the right, named Gene (Kelly), the female is Judy (Garland).

[Zarafia]

They are supposed to group hunt, in the wild and when creche reared. Time will tell.


Awesome. I shall watch this thread and those that may follow with great interest.

[Lee Slikkers]

I've followed all the articles in the falconry mags (seems flooded with this topic lately) with interest knowing they are likely out of my price range for a long, long time but their hunting style and tenacity really intrigues me.

Keep us posted and informed on how this project goes for you...I am jealous and envious, congrats.

[Mitchellbrad]

The new kids.

The standard seems to dual/creche/cohort rear them, then train them.

They can be flown together or separately.

Later in life they should breed naturally but you have to incubate and raise the offspring.


Cute as Hell. I wonder why the standard is what you wrote above. I know that was done with peregrines with the interest of numbers in mind. Most were released but many that found their way into breeding projects had to be manipulated such as AI'd. Some of those birds were a real mess. I know I had some of them!

[tony123abc]

Cute little guys. Gene & Judy? Show tunes? Who wuda thought. Can't wait to read more. tony

[Mitchellbrad]

I found this article a week or so ago. A breeder called me asking if I knew anything about these birds. Of course I know nothing about them so trying to relay information concerning peregrines and attempting to use it on aplomado falcons would be annectodal at best.

In the beginning, with most peregrines, almost everyone didn't let their birds hatch the young. Copulating pairs weren't the norm like they are today. Thousands of peregrines were produced and released. All you needed were egg laying falcons, a semen donor or two and chickens if you didn't trust your falcons to incubate. That was basically the norm and it worked great. Today most breeders who even bother to breed peregrines have copulating pairs, many haven't turned on an incubator for years.

http://www.peregrinefund.org/pdfs/ResearchLibrary/Jenny%20et%20al%202004.pdf

[jfseaman]

I found this article a week or so ago. A breeder called me asking if I knew anything about these birds. Of course I know nothing about them so trying to relay information concerning peregrines and attempting to use it on aplomado falcons would be annectodal at best.

In the beginning, with most peregrines, almost everyone didn't let their birds hatch the young. Copulating pairs weren't the norm like they are today. Thousands of peregrines were produced and released. All you needed were egg laying falcons, a semen donor or two and chickens if you didn't trust your falcons to incubate. That was basically the norm and it worked great. Today most breeders who even bother to breed peregrines have copulating pairs, many haven't turned on an incubator for years.

http://www.peregrinefund.org/pdfs/ResearchLibrary/Jenny%20et%20al%202004.pdf
Yup, that's the program. Modified for falconry with more intimate contact.

Won't know if they are over imprinted for a couple years. Even if they are and reproduction requires AI it'll all work out.

[Ken S.]

They are supposed to group hunt, in the wild and when creche reared. Time will tell.

Yes, and I have seen it done. What a priveledge... I'll never forget it. They are AWESOME! What I saw happen a handful of times... was the female would stay right behind the sparrow - gaining on it a little when it flew straight away and sticking with it on every twist and turn... until it made a mistake and many times the male was flying close enough to intercept. He would go cache it while the female kept hunting with the group and he would re-join when he was done. Same thing for when the female made a catch. It was so much fun to watch... and very effective.

I took some low-quality video of it but haven't spent the time to rip it from dvd to my computer for sharing. I also think there was an article in American Falconry about this already.

I too want to fly an Aplomado some day... but I plan to spend at least a few seasons flying a passage merlin first. I haven't had the chance to fly a merlin yet but I can imagine that being a ton of fun as well with a much lower price tag and the added benefit of being able to release at the end of the season.

[FredFogg]

Anybody know of anyone that has flown an aplo for more than 3 years? And I mean the same bird! Everything I have read so far is about aplo's folks flew that year, but you never hear about the same bird a few years down the road. Are they all going back into breeding projects? Are they lost or killed? It would be interesting to hear or read about how they are long term or at least, it would be to me. Especially, if I were spending that kind of money on a bird!

[borderhawk]

I had heard that Harry McElroy's was recently killed by a wild RT. but I would imagine many go back to breeding after a year or two. I'd heard a few stories of friends of breeders getting to fly one for cheap or free with the agreement that it would go back for breeding afterwards.

[borderhawk]

How old are they in the pic? It looks like one is a day or two ahead of the other... 18...20 days?

[jkruer01]

I love Aplomados. They are very beautiful. Unfortunately they are also out of my price range.

JEremy

[everetkhorton]

I love Aplomados. They are very beautiful. Unfortunately they are also out of my price range.

JEremy

Jeremy:
I have never looked at buying a CB bird/falcon. When you say,"out of your price range". How much are we taking about?

[borderhawk]

Jeremy:
I have never looked at buying a CB bird/falcon. When you say,"out of your price range". How much are we taking about?

Well, I don't know about Jeremy but really anything over a couple hundred is out of my range..... last I heard aplomado's are averaging about $4,000.

[jkruer01]

Jeremy:
I have never looked at buying a CB bird/falcon. When you say,"out of your price range". How much are we taking about?

This is the only website I have seen that lists prices for Aplamados and I have been told this is about average for Aplamados.
http://www.americanbirdabatementservice.com/aplomadosforsale.htm

Jeremy

[wesleyc6]

Jeremy:
I have never looked at buying a CB bird/falcon. When you say,"out of your price range". How much are we taking about?
$2500 males and $3500 females is the cheapest I have seen:eek:

[jfseaman]

Anybody know of anyone that has flown an aplo for more than 3 years? And I mean the same bird! Everything I have read so far is about aplo's folks flew that year, but you never hear about the same bird a few years down the road. Are they all going back into breeding projects? Are they lost or killed? It would be interesting to hear or read about how they are long term or at least, it would be to me. Especially, if I were spending that kind of money on a bird!
I think Harry flew one for at least 3 seasons.

Don't know about a lost to an RT, quite possible and one of my biggest worries.

I believe the Aplomados go back to breeding projects ASAP. There aren't many and once proven hunters they go back as they could breed in year 1 for males and year 2 for females. I'm pretty sure that for the time being they will go back sooner rather than risking a good bird to loss. 'Deals' that friends of breeders get are only that they get to hunt with them, not keep them, of course, they go back to breeding projects.

There is a lot of falconry out there for 'free'. I support wild take and will fight tooth and nail to keep it but...

For me it's much more complicated, I practice falconry, falconry based bird control and I'm trying to be a breeder. I also have my preferences for what birds I want to fly, most of which do not occur in California. Plus I want to fly birds I make, it's were my falconry and related activities are taking me and I am enjoying it.

If all goes well, these birds will be used for all three. All though with our system of a bird only being able to be in one permit at a time, it will be cumbersome, it's possible they will never make it to my falconry license and I will have to be content with what I can do with them during bird control activities.

Back to that 'free' wild take. Like I said, I will defend wild take to extremes. When I went to trap a RT, I think just for gas I spent well over $500 to find Rage. $60 for BC bait. Making the BC etc...

By comparison, I think it costs me $10 to drive over to 'Central Coast Falcons' to pick up a captive bred Barbary tiercel.

There is one wild take raptor I still want to fly, the Prairie as well as a captive bred Prairie. This I want to compare to the Lanner. For a wild take Lanner, I'll have to hook up with someone in Africa for a trip over there. But that's for another thread as we are getting into my falconry plans fo the rest of my life.

[jfseaman]

How old are they in the pic? It looks like one is a day or two ahead of the other... 18...20 days?I think 23 and 28 days is closer I'm not sure and don't feel like looking it up as I am more interested in behavioral progress than the progress being on a calendar.

[jfseaman]

They've come along way.

This is about a week and a half ago.

The male is on the right. He will come to the lure quite quickly. She being younger still thinks it's all play and is in no hurry for anything.

He is craning his neck because there is a small flock of starlings behind me.

http://www.softforge.net/falconry/aplos2.jpg

[kimmerar]

Thanks for the update Fred. They look great. Good to see he's already looking at those starlings!!!

[Bryant Tarr]

fantastic looking birds!

[tumble]

Damn, that's cool.

[samatney]

Bump.

Anything new with the aplos?

[jfseaman]

Bump.

Anything new with the aplos?
I was offline (as jfseaman) for a while.

The Aplomados are doing great. They have been working on a vineyard with me. I also had for 2 weeks someone else's aplos that were started but not finished.

My Aplomados have both caught wild free game. I did some baggies prior to that. At the present time I am ballooning them for fitness. I do them opposite days. The fitness and confidence is improving just as I was told it would.

The other aplos were problem children, I had to send them back because it was taking too much time.

From this experience with mine and someone else's I have developed some opinions.

Which I will right about soon.

[jfseaman]

There is a dark side to aplomados.

Between "Desert Hawking IV" and personal experience here are a few of the darker highlights and weirdnesses.

They hate riding the glove. This can be a challenge in a bird control environment but would be fine hunting.

They hate being touched on the back. Well are generally touchy. I have tracpacks on mine and changing batteries can be quite traumatic.

They hate being hooded. I did a lot of work hooding mine so that once it's on and after about 1/2 hour they settle down but you won't be hooding them to and from the field or in the field. You are looking at at least 1/2 hour to recover from hooding. I hate birds that can't be hooded.

They are equipment eaters. A hungry board aplomado can go through kangaroo pretty quickly.

They carry, I guess like merlins, they want to feel safe. When the weight is raised, they will cache mitigating some of the carrying issue. Biggest tip here is don't attempt to make in using traditional methods if the prey can be carried. I have tried a number of things, a quail wing on a string works best as a call off. Be sure not to pressure the bird on a kill. If it starts to mantle back off and do not under any circumstance 'chase' the bird if it carries. If it flys off and you know it's safe just sit back from 50' and wait. They will come when done eating.

They are noisey. Being a kestrel type bird, it seems that they all make quite a racket. It is highly based on trying to gain attention. My imprint barbary makes more noise when he want me to pick him up. All the aplos and my barbary shut up instantly if I turn my back or when I've picked some bird up.

Some hate new things people, dogs, deer, cattle. This can be a challenge in the field.

These harder to deal with issues for the aplomado are probably not an issue in a pure falconry environment but in bird control it can do your head in.

[jfseaman]

On the good side.

They don't seem to hold grudges.

A friend assures me that during off season periods, upon returning to work or hunting they are better than before.

They are the smarted bird I've worked with, smarter than a Harris's hawk. Get then to do a behavior 2 times and they will repeat it. They recognize hunting grounds and will repeat successes instantly.

As an example of inteligence, ballooning/kiting to build fitness goes sort of like, 30', 150' as high as you think the bird can go in the conditions. Easy. Ballooning does indeed help the birds confidence and they seem to be more determined at quarry.

[jfseaman]

Weirdnesses

One important weirdness to understand, raise their weight to improve performance, manners, reduce carrying and increase determination. Once they've caught stuff, raise the weight as high as you dare. According to Harry, there is a dispersal issue at the end of October and again in the early spring where you might want to bring the weight back down. Just a management issue. Mine are up over 1/2oz (15 grams) from their weight at entering. A friends female is now up 2oz from entering, that's a lot for a 250/330 gram bird. Basically, his is flying above highest baby weight and mine are just under highest baby weight.

As an excample of how raising weight improves manners, the birds I got from someone else to continue training had been brought down in weight. They were totally psycho on the glove when food was around. Screaming, hanging, footing, you name it. Raised the weight and this all went away. BTW: the rest of the time they were just noisey.

[Chris L.]

Fred,

thank you for the posts on the aplo's.. these little guys have my attention for sure.

You mentioned they go through equipment. Have you tried any decron jesses or equipment? If so how do they hold up

The noise they make, is it screaming or just chatter?

If you get a chance to take some more pictures please do

thank you again

[jfseaman]

Fred,

thank you for the posts on the aplo's.. these little guys have my attention for sure.

You mentioned they go through equipment. Have you tried any decron jesses or equipment? If so how do they hold up

The noise they make, is it screaming or just chatter?

If you get a chance to take some more pictures please do

thank you againKangaroo anklets were chewed to the point of untrustworthy, twice.

Saddle leather buttons for my bullet jesses (that I make) were removed, twice.

The covering for the bullet jesses, that have survived multiple redtails, harris hawks, tiercel peregrine and other birds, removed several times.

Braided leashes, no problem.

Put braided jesses on the two problem children but haven't gotten a look at them since.

I'll do picks soon.

[samatney]

thanks Fred. My sponsor (Bob Payne) flies an Aplo. I have went out with her to the field a few times. They are loud (screaming), but she settles down quickly. She will also ride the fist, head, shoulder, t-perch just fine. It is a real fun bird to be in the field with, and on the plus side the flights are incredible.

[jfseaman]

thanks Fred. My sponsor (Bob Payne) flies an Aplo. I have went out with her to the field a few times. They are loud (screaming), but she settles down quickly. She will also ride the fist, head, shoulder, t-perch just fine. It is a real fun bird to be in the field with, and on the plus side the flights are incredible.
They will ride the t-perch ok, head, shoulder yeah. Probably not the fist because the stakes/posts that hold up the vines are higher. Just makes them really hard to move around the vineyard.

If it were a hunting situation, not a problem.

I don't fly with jesses and they hate being restrained so it works out except that I have to completely hook them up and put them on the cadge to move 100 yards. The alternative, let them take a position on the post, them call them over to where I want is rewarding them for bad (non-preferred) behavior. Not something I do.

[jfseaman]

No pictures yet. I'm pretty solo and it's hard to get good pictures alone.

For about a week, I've been doing something suggested by several falconers who have experience with aplos. Ballooning/Kiting.

Today I had the female go up around 600 feet. Initially she looked at the balloon and you could almost see and expression of "I'm not sure I can go that high". She looked around for something to chase but there was nothing. She launched and circled at around 70' for a bit like she was trying to decide if it was worth it, then she started climbing swinging wider for more speed until she got close. It seemed like a long time but probably only took a minute for her to power up and came down with her prize.

Didn't have a flight of starlings come in after she was down so she got to eat completely undisturbed and when she was done, she was a flash to the glove.

[Chris L.]

Fred, you killing me without the pictures ;)

thanks for the posts about these guys. I am enjoying hearing about them.

[jfseaman]

Fred, you killing me without the pictures ;)

thanks for the posts about these guys. I am enjoying hearing about them.My partner is coming tomorrow to take pictures. I'll give him my camera so I can get some do download here.

Tomorrow the male will be put up to the balloon at the same height as the female did today. I'll ask my partner to judge the height.

Today the male went 'hunting' sparrows and starlings of course as part of work. I had some really good chases much farther and with much more commitment that before. After one he did something he's done before. He came back to me, this time landing on one of the trellis posts instead of the ATV because I was on foot and started stamping his feet. I think he was really peeved that he didn't get what he was chasing. I think it was starlings because they had disappeared over the hill and that's where he went. The sparrows were all cowering in the trees.

[jfseaman]

An observation after 6 weeks on a vineyard with Aplomados.

They were made part of the team to 'abate' the sparrows that peck the seeds from the grapes and therefor ruin the entire bunch.

For this purpose, they are a dud.

After our evening outing to where the sparrows are the worst. The sparrows were back in 5 minutes. For sparrow abatement with an aplomado to be effective it has to be the only pest you are concerned with. Of course I have a much bigger pest in the starlings so the Barbaries get alot more to do.

Oh and vineyards are horrible places to hunt, too much cover in the vines, too many wires and fences. You really need to teach your birds what wires and fences are.

Of course there are lots of other places where the aplomados will be a more usefull part of the team but...



BARBARIES RULEclapp

[bobpayne]

There is a dark side to aplomados.

Between "Desert Hawking IV" and personal experience here are a few of the darker highlights and weirdnesses.

They hate riding the glove. This can be a challenge in a bird control environment but would be fine hunting.

They hate being touched on the back. Well are generally touchy. I have tracpacks on mine and changing batteries can be quite traumatic.

They hate being hooded. I did a lot of work hooding mine so that once it's on and after about 1/2 hour they settle down but you won't be hooding them to and from the field or in the field. You are looking at at least 1/2 hour to recover from hooding. I hate birds that can't be hooded.

They are equipment eaters. A hungry board aplomado can go through kangaroo pretty quickly.

They carry, I guess like merlins, they want to feel safe. When the weight is raised, they will cache mitigating some of the carrying issue. Biggest tip here is don't attempt to make in using traditional methods if the prey can be carried. I have tried a number of things, a quail wing on a string works best as a call off. Be sure not to pressure the bird on a kill. If it starts to mantle back off and do not under any circumstance 'chase' the bird if it carries. If it flys off and you know it's safe just sit back from 50' and wait. They will come when done eating.

They are noisey. Being a kestrel type bird, it seems that they all make quite a racket. It is highly based on trying to gain attention. My imprint barbary makes more noise when he want me to pick him up. All the aplos and my barbary shut up instantly if I turn my back or when I've picked some bird up.

Some hate new things people, dogs, deer, cattle. This can be a challenge in the field.

These harder to deal with issues for the aplomado are probably not an issue in a pure falconry environment but in bird control it can do your head in.

Fred, when you read your thread about the dark side of the Aplomado, one takes away from it that you really don't like them. confusedd

I have flown them, maybe not as long as you but found with my experiences that they, enjoy hunting with a partner and stick to you like glue, returning to the glove after most flights. The falcon I am currently flying has chased for as long as 3 miles, (telemetry chased )and then before she could be gathered up returned to within a 100 yds of where the flight began.

I have found them to be extremely forgiving with handling. I suggest you consider not hooding them if it takes a half hour to settle down after each exposure to the hood. It may be that between the use of the hood and changing the batteries on the pack that they have devoloped fear of your hands and that may be why yours will not use the fist. You might consider just casting them for the battery swap and use a t perch until they overcome their fear of your hands.

To equipment problems, mine were minor similar to a passage hawk, and with dacron jesses there is no issue.

As to new things they are much easier to bend than a short wing, I haven't had issues with cows, deer, dogs, or people. Hats were a problem which was overcome in less than a weeks time.

All small hawks and falcons will carry when exposed to danger. and most have to be trained not to take advantage of a pole or tree where we would find them feeding in the wild, where they can see danger coming from some distance. Yours may also have issues with sibling revalry(sp) due to your method of raising them.

I must agree that they can be noisey! I have no issues in the field, except when danger is sighted, she lets me know, much the same as my Harris would, coyote in the field, owl in the field. When put with others that are vocal, a quiet falcon will also become vocal. I would guess that 5 screaming falcons in the back of a van doing abatement all day could "Do your head in" in a couple days.


Overall I find them low key and a great falconry bird, I had totally different kinds of experiences with them than you did. If you want to hunt avain quarry, there isn't a much better time than hunting a cast of Aplomado.:D
Bob Payne

[jfseaman]

Fred, when you read your thread about the dark side of the Aplomado, one takes away from it that you really don't like them. confusedd

...

Overall I find them low key and a great falconry bird, I had totally different kinds of experiences with them than you did. If you want to hunt avain quarry, there isn't a much better time than hunting a cast of Aplomado.:D
Bob PayneI love them. It's the noise, the noise.

You have been flying them longer than I have.

I believe they would be fantastic falconry birds. I keep raising weight and getting better performance. Longer chases, immediate returns.

Just not working out on this abatement job. I'm sure they will be better suited to the one I do in April.

[jfseaman]

She is still young and spends a lot of time this way.

http://www.softforge.net/falconry/notbothered_judy.jpg

Balloon ready

http://www.softforge.net/falconry/balloonready_gene.jpg

The ballon setup

http://www.softforge.net/falconry/balloon1.jpg
http://www.softforge.net/falconry/balloon2.jpg

http://www.softforge.net/falconry/balloon3.jpg

[jfseaman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeWoW6RhVlw

[harrislover]

anything new to share about this. we all love aplamados very much!!!!

[PeteJ]

Interesting your dark side things. I did not have those issues with mine. He wasn't overly noisy, he loved to ride the glove or my hat, he didn't carry unless it was a tiny bird caught in the air..then he would carry to me or the top of the truck shell. He wasn't thrilled about heavy petting though. My biggest issue was the presence of grasshoppers (his fav after a while) and he just didn't have the sort of speed I was used to seeing out of other falcons. But for a beginner bird for long-wings, or if you live in marginal long-wing habitat, they can be quite useful.

[jfseaman]

Interesting your dark side things. I did not have those issues with mine. He wasn't overly noisy, he loved to ride the glove or my hat, he didn't carry unless it was a tiny bird caught in the air..then he would carry to me or the top of the truck shell. He wasn't thrilled about heavy petting though. My biggest issue was the presence of grasshoppers (his fav after a while) and he just didn't have the sort of speed I was used to seeing out of other falcons. But for a beginner bird for long-wings, or if you live in marginal long-wing habitat, they can be quite useful.
Sorry for the lack of updates.

Most of the issues reduced to manageable levels as their weight went up.

Part of the problem riding the glove is that the metal stakes holding up the vines are higher than the glove. She eventually would ride the glove while I rode the quad, he would not.

When he caught a sparrow, he carried it back to my vicinity. She caught larger stuff down in cover so never moved.

They would both ring up starlings until the starlings bailed out or fled. We treed them, trapped them in the vines but for some reason never caught a starling.

They are now put away, quiet as an aplomado should be.

If one or both were my hunting falcons, it would be a gas but I love my tiercel barbary and want to put some time into one of the larger falcons. So unfortunately they will get only 5 or 6 months of flying/hunting/work. Contrast to my tiercel barbary, he will fly from mid July until just before June, with a couple breaks. Compare to a duck hawk in California, comes out late September and gets put away early January (unless you are poaching which I don't do). 100 days of duck season plus a little more for training or reclaiming.

They come back out in March unless we get mid winter crops to work. Then back to vineyards in July and like many aplos, soon to go into the breeding project. They are not related.

Oh and some of the noise is seems to be 'take me, take me' when it looked to them like I was going to pick up somebody to fly.

Other things, now together in the chamber. I can walk in and pick her up. He usually will step up but then jump away to a higher perch. Same as riding the glove I guess.

[jfseaman]

Just a little update about the ballooning.

I got the kiting and ballooning equipment out for the first time since I used it for the aplomados. I was curious about just how high they had gone so I ran the line out to where the line out to where the mark was for their highest. I got the laser range finder out and from the end of the line to the truck.. 380 yards, 1140 feet. With the lure about 40 feet below the balloon that put them at 1100 feet straight up.:eek:

[redtailnut]

Hi Fred just to let you know we just agreed a deal with Bob D, for a Breeding Pair of Aplamado's so hopefully next year we will be able to try one ourselves.
Also got the Pygmy Falcon now as well as a Merlin :D
Mike.

[jfseaman]

Hi Fred just to let you know we just agreed a deal with Bob D, for a Breeding Pair of Aplamado's so hopefully next year we will be able to try one ourselves.
Also got the Pygmy Falcon now as well as a Merlin :D
Mike.
Fantastic. I'm interested in how they will be raised and what happens.

[raptoria]

they can be quite usefull???
Sorry but one of my tiercels had catch hundreds of birds.
A female I breed two seasons ago, had kill more that 200 quail, many road runners, doves, and lots of sparrow like birds. Im sorry to say it but all the aplos I had seen, hood perfectly, enjoy the glove, do NOT scream but chups, and eat few or non insects. Aplomados In Mexico take cattle egrets on fantastic flights. Some of the aplomados I had breed hunts quail on a regular basis, and Im talking about Moctezuma Scaled, Bob Withe, and California. In fact I dont think theres nothing better for quail hawking.
Havnt you seen a cast of aplomados after a lapwing?...

Carlos.

[raptoria]

Some videos,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeTBdZ8RHDA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdlkG1UZUac&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmhmptHkZ5E&feature=related

Carlos

[jfseaman]

they can be quite usefull???
Sorry but one of my tiercels had catch hundreds of birds.
A female I breed two seasons ago, had kill more that 200 quail, many road runners, doves, and lots of sparrow like birds. Im sorry to say it but all the aplos I had seen, hood perfectly, enjoy the glove, do NOT scream but chups, and eat few or non insects. Aplomados In Mexico take cattle egrets on fantastic flights. Some of the aplomados I had breed hunts quail on a regular basis, and Im talking about Moctezuma Scaled, Bob Withe, and California. In fact I dont think theres nothing better for quail hawking.
Havnt you seen a cast of aplomados after a lapwing?...

Carlos.Parent raised or passage?

[PeteJ]

they can be quite usefull???
Sorry but one of my tiercels had catch hundreds of birds.
A female I breed two seasons ago, had kill more that 200 quail, many road runners, doves, and lots of sparrow like birds. Im sorry to say it but all the aplos I had seen, hood perfectly, enjoy the glove, do NOT scream but chups, and eat few or non insects. Aplomados In Mexico take cattle egrets on fantastic flights. Some of the aplomados I had breed hunts quail on a regular basis, and Im talking about Moctezuma Scaled, Bob Withe, and California. In fact I dont think theres nothing better for quail hawking.
Havnt you seen a cast of aplomados after a lapwing?...

Carlos.
As I said, they can be quite useful.

[Yeomanfalconer]

I found Harry M's report in DH4, on the Chilean vineyard falconers interesting. The vines are trained high enough to walk under and the tiercel aplomado was routing thrushes by flying under the canopy.

[raptoria]

Both, passage and eyass birds.

Yes, theyre quite usefull.

Carlos.

[Chris L.]

Great videos!! Thank you for posting them.

It amazes me how tenacious the Aplo is. The just don't give up.

[passagejack]

Fred, when you read your thread about the dark side of the Aplomado, one takes away from it that you really don't like them. confusedd

I have flown them, maybe not as long as you but found with my experiences that they, enjoy hunting with a partner and stick to you like glue, returning to the glove after most flights. The falcon I am currently flying has chased for as long as 3 miles, (telemetry chased )and then before she could be gathered up returned to within a 100 yds of where the flight began.

I have found them to be extremely forgiving with handling. I suggest you consider not hooding them if it takes a half hour to settle down after each exposure to the hood. It may be that between the use of the hood and changing the batteries on the pack that they have devoloped fear of your hands and that may be why yours will not use the fist. You might consider just casting them for the battery swap and use a t perch until they overcome their fear of your hands.

To equipment problems, mine were minor similar to a passage hawk, and with dacron jesses there is no issue.

As to new things they are much easier to bend than a short wing, I haven't had issues with cows, deer, dogs, or people. Hats were a problem which was overcome in less than a weeks time.

All small hawks and falcons will carry when exposed to danger. and most have to be trained not to take advantage of a pole or tree where we would find them feeding in the wild, where they can see danger coming from some distance. Yours may also have issues with sibling revalry(sp) due to your method of raising them.

I must agree that they can be noisey! I have no issues in the field, except when danger is sighted, she lets me know, much the same as my Harris would, coyote in the field, owl in the field. When put with others that are vocal, a quiet falcon will also become vocal. I would guess that 5 screaming falcons in the back of a van doing abatement all day could "Do your head in" in a couple days.


Overall I find them low key and a great falconry bird, I had totally different kinds of experiences with them than you did. If you want to hunt avain quarry, there isn't a much better time than hunting a cast of Aplomado.:D
Bob Payne
clappclappclappclappclappclapp!!!!! Well put Bob. Thats the truth of it!

[passagejack]

they can be quite usefull???
Sorry but one of my tiercels had catch hundreds of birds.
A female I breed two seasons ago, had kill more that 200 quail, many road runners, doves, and lots of sparrow like birds. Im sorry to say it but all the aplos I had seen, hood perfectly, enjoy the glove, do NOT scream but chups, and eat few or non insects. Aplomados In Mexico take cattle egrets on fantastic flights. Some of the aplomados I had breed hunts quail on a regular basis, and Im talking about Moctezuma Scaled, Bob Withe, and California. In fact I dont think theres nothing better for quail hawking.
Havnt you seen a cast of aplomados after a lapwing?...

Carlos.

clappclappclappclappclapp!!!!!!!!! Amen.
Jeremy

[passagejack]

Hello to all. My name is Jeremy Roselle, and I'm a recovering Aploholic. Kidding, I'm still addictedtoungeout. I have had the pleasure of having the opportunity to have flown and worked with more Aplos then maybe 2 other people here in the states? I aquierd my first male (Chase) 3 years ago. He is a large one that flies around 270 grms. He was group raised till hard penning. He was entered with only 2 baggies and then givin a chance at wild game in a field hawking situation. He caught this first head (field sparrow) 4 days into hawking. After making his first kill he never looked back. He usually caught doulbles and triples each afternoon. Not by my choice. Mostly due to him hunting all the way back to the truck. He would not stop till he had a full crop (about 2 sparrows).The third one he would cashe. These flights were amazing!! Long corkscrew flights for 200 to 300 yrds. Some would go several hundred feet into the air only to end up back at ground level. He was a dream to handle. He hooded as well as any bird I've had (thats alot)LOL! He was a little vocal but not bad. Seems like the birds that are kept in a group situation (2 or more)are much more vocal.

This past spring I was given the chance to manage 'American Bird Abatement Services'. My job was to train up the current Aplo's as well as , with some help, the new chicks from the 09' season. I also went and performed all of the demo's and presentations to aquier all of our contracts. All in all I have worked with over 20 Aplo's. Some from start to finish and some I just started.

People always ask me what did I think? How did they fly. Are they hard to hood and handle? Are they gamey? Are they as fast as people say?
My answere was always " Try to imagine a male Coops squished together with a female merlin. Imagine the tools a bird like that would have? Then add the brain of a male Harris. Thats the best way I felt people could wrap there heads around these birds, having not flown one. It's ( for me) one of the most truest statements I've ever made in falconry.

As for handling? They can be touchy about the hood. Yet if started properly thay are a breese to hood. Still don't know what the big fuss about hooding one iscrazyy? We hood broke several birds that had been used as breeders for several years then pulled out to be flown. Carrying can be an issue. However we noticed some interesting habits. Males seemed to carry a bit more but cashe a bit easyer. They would cashe small birds readily but were much more posessive over larger kills. If flown in a cast, we flew up to 4 at a time, they were more prone to carry. Most of the time a male would kill something a female would still it from him. We found(with most of the males) that if you just walked away from them and acted like you were still hunting they would cashe and join the hunt. This especially held true when there was another male in the field. Compitition thing?
From an abatement stand point (cherrys, blueberrys, grapes) they are a very usefull tool. They are as gamey as anything out there! There speed allows them to intimidate the hell out of most things. There stamina allows them to catch most things. The are a VERY smart raptor. Right up there with the gyr and merlins. Ope! can't forget the eagles;). At times I'd sware they WERE the smartest of them all. They would routinely make kills in the vinyards. They would often "put in" and repeatedly reflush there victoms before we could even get to them to assist. True murderers, must be the Coops in themconfusedd. The draw backs from an abatement standpoint were that they did not have the size to put the fear of god into most of the pest species. What I mean by this is if they were not actively chasing quarry they were sometimes treated with little respect by the other birds. I had on several occasions, larger pest birds chase the Aplo. If the Aplo was just loafing around the other birds would almost treat them like they were kestrels. However once the Aplo's started to chase then watch out! This I think is there only "real" flaw from an abatement standpoint. Most other issues can be solved. I've done all types of abatement (Air bases, landfills and aggriculture) and this amazing little bird has a deffinet niche in this market!!! However that being said they are not the only answere. This is why I no longer work at A.B.A.S.

While working I had my old bird Chase, a 2 year old male, pull in within 5 ft behind a Valley Quail, chase it 300 yrds never loosing ground only to have the quail commit suicide by crashing into a spruce tree at full speed. Chase never missed a beat. He flew right past the Spruce at full speed shot out across the vinyard another 200 yards and then stood on his tail to meet a rising flock of Starlings 400 ft up. No "ringing up" about it! He just used his momentum to go up at a 45 degree angle into the flock. He then sliced through the starlings and caught one on his first pass.:eek:. OMG that was amazing! I've had falcons kill grouse from monster pitches. My Gos routenily smoked pheasants and huns on the rise. But damn! That was amazing! Pure example of speed, brains, power and finess!. And the beauty is if they do miss, they come right back to the glove, no matter how farclapp. There were a lot of other flights that would take forever to describe. Like Harris Hawks the males seemed to be a bit more social with the falconer. The females were a bit more independant. Males wanted to carry a bit more but cashed easyer. All things to consider?

It is my oppinion that these birds are the "next" evolution for American Falconry. They will be the next "Harris Hawk" to our sport. They are social ( if raised right). They will fly in multi bird groups very easly. Pairs, if flown routenily, will coopperativly hunt. Saw this on many occasions(cool stuff). They open the door to a whole new quarry base. Alot of quys do not have good slips on larger quarry any more. These birds will solve that. They are open to flying in urban areas and adapt to new situations pretty well.
Its a shame that they cost so much. I have bred birds and know what goes into it. However if these birds were sold for a more reasonable price then more people would know what a true "jewel" they are. Unfortionatly there use in abatement is going to be one more excuse to keep them out of most peoples price range. A true shame. I've successfully flown alot of different types of raptors, and believe me people, these birds from a falconry standpoint are amazing! If (when) the price comes down, they will be the bird of choice for a majority of our peers. There are not to many birds that allow you the divercity in quarry, the locals you can fly in and the HIGH quality of flights you'll see with these birds. They are almost as easy as the Harris to fly. They can be good in most hands and great in the right hands. Same as the Harris.
Jeremy

[jfseaman]

Hello to all. My name is Jeremy Roselle, and I'm a recovering Aploholic. Kidding, I'm still addictedtoungeout. I have had the pleasure of having the opportunity to have flown and worked with more Aplos then maybe 2 other people here in the states? I aquierd my first male (Chase) 3 years ago. He is a large one that flies around 270 grms. He was group raised till hard penning. He was entered with only 2 baggies and then givin a chance at wild game in a field hawking situation. He caught this first head (field sparrow) 4 days into hawking. After making his first kill he never looked back. He usually caught doulbles and triples each afternoon. Not by my choice. Mostly due to him hunting all the way back to the truck. He would not stop till he had a full crop (about 2 sparrows).The third one he would cashe. These flights were amazing!! Long corkscrew flights for 200 to 300 yrds. Some would go several hundred feet into the air only to end up back at ground level. He was a dream to handle. He hooded as well as any bird I've had (thats alot)LOL! He was a little vocal but not bad. Seems like the birds that are kept in a group situation (2 or more)are much more vocal.

This past spring I was given the chance to manage 'American Bird Abatement Services'. My job was to train up the current Aplo's as well as , with some help, the new chicks from the 09' season. I also went and performed all of the demo's and presentations to aquier all of our contracts. All in all I have worked with over 20 Aplo's. Some from start to finish and some I just started.

People always ask me what did I think? How did they fly. Are they hard to hood and handle? Are they gamey? Are they as fast as people say?
My answere was always " Try to imagine a male Coops squished together with a female merlin. Imagine the tools a bird like that would have? Then add the brain of a male Harris. Thats the best way I felt people could wrap there heads around these birds, having not flown one. It's ( for me) one of the most truest statements I've ever made in falconry.

As for handling? They can be touchy about the hood. Yet if started properly thay are a breese to hood. Still don't know what the big fuss about hooding one iscrazyy? We hood broke several birds that had been used as breeders for several years then pulled out to be flown. Carrying can be an issue. However we noticed some interesting habits. Males seemed to carry a bit more but cashe a bit easyer. They would cashe small birds readily but were much more posessive over larger kills. If flown in a cast, we flew up to 4 at a time, they were more prone to carry. Most of the time a male would kill something a female would still it from him. We found(with most of the males) that if you just walked away from them and acted like you were still hunting they would cashe and join the hunt. This especially held true when there was another male in the field. Compitition thing?
From an abatement stand point (cherrys, blueberrys, grapes) they are a very usefull tool. They are as gamey as anything out there! There speed allows them to intimidate the hell out of most things. There stamina allows them to catch most things. The are a VERY smart raptor. Right up there with the gyr and merlins. Ope! can't forget the eagles;). At times I'd sware they WERE the smartest of them all. They would routinely make kills in the vinyards. They would often "put in" and repeatedly reflush there victoms before we could even get to them to assist. True murderers, must be the Coops in themconfusedd. The draw backs from an abatement standpoint were that they did not have the size to put the fear of god into most of the pest species. What I mean by this is if they were not actively chasing quarry they were sometimes treated with little respect by the other birds. I had on several occasions, larger pest birds chase the Aplo. If the Aplo was just loafing around the other birds would almost treat them like they were kestrels. However once the Aplo's started to chase then watch out! This I think is there only "real" flaw from an abatement standpoint. Most other issues can be solved. I've done all types of abatement (Air bases, landfills and aggriculture) and this amazing little bird has a deffinet niche in this market!!! However that being said they are not the only answere. This is why I no longer work at A.B.A.S.

While working I had my old bird Chase, a 2 year old male, pull in within 5 ft behind a Valley Quail, chase it 300 yrds never loosing ground only to have the quail commit suicide by crashing into a spruce tree at full speed. Chase never missed a beat. He flew right past the Spruce at full speed shot out across the vinyard another 200 yards and then stood on his tail to meet a rising flock of Starlings 400 ft up. No "ringing up" about it! He just used his momentum to go up at a 45 degree angle into the flock. He then sliced through the starlings and caught one on his first pass.:eek:. OMG that was amazing! I've had falcons kill grouse from monster pitches. My Gos routenily smoked pheasants and huns on the rise. But damn! That was amazing! Pure example of speed, brains, power and finess!. And the beauty is if they do miss, they come right back to the glove, no matter how farclapp. There were a lot of other flights that would take forever to describe. Like Harris Hawks the males seemed to be a bit more social with the falconer. The females were a bit more independant. Males wanted to carry a bit more but cashed easyer. All things to consider?

It is my oppinion that these birds are the "next" evolution for American Falconry. They will be the next "Harris Hawk" to our sport. They are social ( if raised right). They will fly in multi bird groups very easly. Pairs, if flown routenily, will coopperativly hunt. Saw this on many occasions(cool stuff). They open the door to a whole new quarry base. Alot of quys do not have good slips on larger quarry any more. These birds will solve that. They are open to flying in urban areas and adapt to new situations pretty well.
Its a shame that they cost so much. I have bred birds and know what goes into it. However if these birds were sold for a more reasonable price then more people would know what a true "jewel" they are. Unfortionatly there use in abatement is going to be one more excuse to keep them out of most peoples price range. A true shame. I've successfully flown alot of different types of raptors, and believe me people, these birds from a falconry standpoint are amazing! If (when) the price comes down, they will be the bird of choice for a majority of our peers. There are not to many birds that allow you the divercity in quarry, the locals you can fly in and the HIGH quality of flights you'll see with these birds. They are almost as easy as the Harris to fly. They can be good in most hands and great in the right hands. Same as the Harris.
JeremyJeremy,

Brad says Hi.

We are in agreement. Great falconry birds, have draw backs in the abatement world but a useful tool.

I dislike the vocalizations, hope to foster offspring to something so as to see if it goes away with 'parent' raised.

I don't like the price either. I hope the price comes down but it will still be some time before that happens. Pairs are getting out there though.

[passagejack]

http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae58/passagejack/007-1.jpg

[FredFogg]

I sure would love to fly one someday, but I can't afford a second mortgage on my house! LOL

[bobpayne]

I sure would love to fly one someday, but I can't afford a second mortgage on my house! LOL


Hey Fred, you can't afford not to take a second on the house, you don't have anything more valueable than time on this earth.

Years ago my hawking buddy puchased a gos, and I thought, man we could have just gone to WY and stole one out of a tree. Years later he is still whackin jacks with the hawk and he reminds me that the cost of the hawk per season is just hundreds ea year. It catches a jack about every 4th flight jack hawking, caught 200 plus jacks, equals out 800 plus flights on jacks plus the 100 to 200 cottontails caught each season.

The cost per outstanding flight....priceless! Money is just a tool to get you hawking, pickin the wrong hawk to save a buck, might be a waste of time.frus)



http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx229/hawker64068/Maggiebrainsalad.jpg[/IMG]

[passagejack]

Hey Fred, you can't afford not to take a second on the house, you don't have anything more valueable than time on this earth.

Years ago my hawking buddy puchased a gos, and I thought, man we could have just gone to WY and stole one out of a tree. Years later he is still whackin jacks with the hawk and he reminds me that the cost of the hawk per season is just hundreds ea year. It catches a jack about every 4th flight jack hawking, caught 200 plus jacks, equals out 800 plus flights on jacks plus the 100 to 200 cottontails caught each season.

The cost per outstanding flight....priceless! Money is just a tool to get you hawking, pickin the wrong hawk to save a buck, might be a waste of time.frus)



http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx229/hawker64068/Maggiebrainsalad.jpg[/IMG]
Hey Bob.... The background in that photo looks familiar?LOL!
Hope things are well!!! Jeremy

[FredFogg]

Hey Fred, you can't afford not to take a second on the house, you don't have anything more valueable than time on this earth.

Years ago my hawking buddy puchased a gos, and I thought, man we could have just gone to WY and stole one out of a tree. Years later he is still whackin jacks with the hawk and he reminds me that the cost of the hawk per season is just hundreds ea year. It catches a jack about every 4th flight jack hawking, caught 200 plus jacks, equals out 800 plus flights on jacks plus the 100 to 200 cottontails caught each season.

The cost per outstanding flight....priceless! Money is just a tool to get you hawking, pickin the wrong hawk to save a buck, might be a waste of time.frus)




Yeah Bob, but here in the east, with all the coops we have and lack of open land, a second mortgage on my house to supply a coops with an afternoon meal doesn't seem too smart to me. LOL :D

[BigJerHoods]

Jeremy,

Brad says Hi.

We are in agreement. Great falconry birds, have draw backs in the abatement world but a useful tool.

I dislike the vocalizations, hope to foster offspring to something so as to see if it goes away with 'parent' raised.

I don't like the price either. I hope the price comes down but it will still be some time before that happens. Pairs are getting out there though.

Fred,

How can you say that you totally agree? Jeremy's more experienced observations of aplomados in both a falconry and an abatement setting ran in direct contradiction to the blanket generalizations that you made about the species earlier in this thread.confusedd

[jfseaman]

Fred,

How can you say that you totally agree? Jeremy's more experienced observations of aplomados in both a falconry and an abatement setting ran in direct contradiction to the blanket generalizations that you made about the species earlier in this thread.confusedd
I don't think so. I just re-read the thread, perhaps you missed some details.

I can hood mine, they don't like it but I can.

They are very useful for bird abatement. Not the only bird you should have on the cadge but very useful. Though they didn't shine at vineyards (yet?) I expect great things from them at the blueberries. Like Jeremy said, when loafing everything seems to think they are kestrels.

I didn't have any carrying issue.

By the accounts of my friends they are very good falconry birds.

There is plenty of noise. The first ones I was exposed to were Harry McElroy's. Mine are much quiter than his. I have a friend who's was much noisier but is much quieter in it's second year. I look forward to seeing how they are in 3 weeks or so.

Jeremy R. said all the same things just more low key on the negative stuff.

I had 4 at the max. They wind each other up to a noise level that is a bit much to handle. When 2 went back to Brad, the noise level was tolerable at work but not something my neighbors would accept so they are kept fat until they go back to work in 3 weeks.

Oh and important, when at the block and noisy if I picked someone up the noise stopped. If I turned and walked away the noise stopped. If other people were there they weren't noisy until they saw me.

The 2 that went back to Brad are with Mike right now. Mike says 1 is hopeless, same as I found. One is becoming great same as I expected. They were partially trained when Brad dropped them off with me.

I don't what to get into some kind of argument so just be bold and say what your point is though you might call Brad F. first.

[BigJerHoods]

There is a dark side to aplomados.

Between "Desert Hawking IV" and personal experience here are a few of the darker highlights and weirdnesses.

They hate riding the glove. This can be a challenge in a bird control environment but would be fine hunting.

They hate being touched on the back. Well are generally touchy. I have tracpacks on mine and changing batteries can be quite traumatic.

They hate being hooded. I did a lot of work hooding mine so that once it's on and after about 1/2 hour they settle down but you won't be hooding them to and from the field or in the field. You are looking at at least 1/2 hour to recover from hooding. I hate birds that can't be hooded.

They are equipment eaters. A hungry board aplomado can go through kangaroo pretty quickly.

They carry, I guess like merlins, they want to feel safe. When the weight is raised, they will cache mitigating some of the carrying issue. Biggest tip here is don't attempt to make in using traditional methods if the prey can be carried. I have tried a number of things, a quail wing on a string works best as a call off. Be sure not to pressure the bird on a kill. If it starts to mantle back off and do not under any circumstance 'chase' the bird if it carries. If it flys off and you know it's safe just sit back from 50' and wait. They will come when done eating.

They are noisey. Being a kestrel type bird, it seems that they all make quite a racket. It is highly based on trying to gain attention. My imprint barbary makes more noise when he want me to pick him up. All the aplos and my barbary shut up instantly if I turn my back or when I've picked some bird up.

Some hate new things people, dogs, deer, cattle. This can be a challenge in the field.

These harder to deal with issues for the aplomado are probably not an issue in a pure falconry environment but in bird control it can do your head in.

Let me see if I misunderstood some of the blanket statements made about the species relative to your limited experience.
They hate riding the glove.
They hate being touched on the back.
They hate being hooded.
They are equipment eaters.
They carry, I guess like merlins, they want to feel safe. ( I particularly love this one because you manage to perpetuate another untrue generalization about a different species than the one you were originally generalizing.)
They are noisey.
Some hate new things people, dogs, deer, cattle. This can be a challenge in the field.

Jeremy R.'s post was, it seemed to me, catagorically in opposition to your assertions about aplomados, but I will leave it to him to address your thread point by point if he so wishes. I am not going to put words in his mouth. Here is the bold point I wish to make: I find it distasteful and damaging to the betterment of falconry when someone makes definitive statements about any of the species involved. Particularly when the person speaking with such authority in fact has a very limited experience from which he/she is drawing their broad stroked conclusions. Perhaps it was not your intention to speak about the species as a whole in this manner whitewashing them with negative stigma for the inexperienced readership, but you did. Perhaps in my inarticulate ignorance I missed something, but I don't think so. If you don't want to start an argument don't passive-aggressively suggest that I "missed some detail".

On a side note: I don't need to check in with Brad if I want to address you regarding something you said in this forum.

[bobpayne]

Yeah Bob, but here in the east, with all the coops we have and lack of open land, a second mortgage on my house to supply a coops with an afternoon meal doesn't seem too smart to me. LOL :D


Years ago I sold furniture, and went to Hickory NC to purchase in Oct and April. I never saw areas where I would hunt a longwing. I figured there were areas that I didn't know about as there are several falconers such as yourself doing so.

So you are telling me that isn't so much the cost of the hawk, but the shortwings? My run ins with the coops haven't amounted to anything more than both hawks going into a soar, and the coop being tail chased to cover. I fear redtails!
rtsqrl
They are on every other fence post or pole and known for coming out of nowhere. Such is the life of any falconer hunting the micros.