Which Mounting Method?

[RLBagley]

It's usually the case that we start getting a lot of questions about which way is "best" for mounting transmitters this time of year as the number of calls increases related to getting transmitters for young birds.

This is a topic that can become heated pretty quick between falconers as there is no shortage of strong opinions.

Anyway, in an effort to help with making your decisions, we've added this section on Mounting Methods (http://marshallradio.com/en/north-american-falconry-products/north-american-falconry-transmitters/item/510-mounting-methods) to the new Website.

Hopefully, some will find it helpful.
RB

[frootdog]

This is a topic that can become heated pretty quick between falconers as there is no shortage of strong opinions.
RB

Isn't that ANY topic when falconers are involved?

[Tony James]

It's usually the case that we start getting a lot of questions about which way is "best" for mounting transmitters this time of year as the number of calls increases related to getting transmitters for young birds.

This is a topic that can become heated pretty quick between falconers as there is no shortage of strong opinions.

Anyway, in an effort to help with making your decisions, we've added this section on Mounting Methods (http://marshallradio.com/en/north-american-falconry-products/north-american-falconry-transmitters/item/510-mounting-methods) to the new Website.

Hopefully, some will find it helpful.
RB

Well done Robert, I can see that being a very useful reference point for falconers, particularly beginners.
It makes an interesting point regarding prejudices based on outdated reasoning, and it has to be a good thing to encourage falconers as you have, to consider the options based on their circumstances as well as the most up to date equipment.
It would be a shame to see falconers adopt an inflexible position on the subject, as that would inevitably lead to a limiting of their options, when, given what needs to be taken into account with individual hawks, keeping your options open is the most sensible route.

Best wishes,

Tony.

PS I hope you don't mind, but I've copied the link to the forum that really can get heated:eek:

[Lowachi]

Isn't that ANY topic when falconers are involved?

got that right!!!!amennn
Brandon got a back mount for graduation from a falconer friend, might just try it on the big tiercel

[frootdog]

got that right!!!!amennn
Brandon got a back mount for graduation from a falconer friend, might just try it on the big tiercel

I'm doing track packs on the 3 HHs this year.

[mainefalconer]

Here's my "two cents" if I may;
I'm a huge proponent of backpack mounts on longwings, and I've installed them on many medium and large falcons with great results, but I would warn people about a disadvantage that does NOT appear on the Marshall website. If you're thinking of backpacking a Redtail, Gos, or HH, think longt and hard about the kind of cover that you're bird might be crashing through. The terminal tip of a tree branch or shrub could slide between the bird's skin and the backpack ribbon, hanging the bird up. I would guess that the chances are very slim of this happening, but I had a redtail get caught up pretty badly once and was lucky to be able to assist her in releasing herself from the predicament.

But I can't imagine anything going wrong with a falcon and in fact the lowered risk of electrocution makes it SO worth looking into backpacks.

[Dirthawking]

Scott, there are inherent risks with anything we do with our birds. I would be more worried about somebodies bird flying into a window, than a tree branch going between the back pack and the skin. Then again, if fitted properly, this should not happen as easy, if at all. Just saying....

[Chris Proctor]

I have been 100% converted from a tail mount to a track pack. I installed 5 track packs last fall on my birds and my friends, all were drug free and easy as can be. If you have a hawk crashing into brush, why not just use a small micro? You don't need that extra booming power that an RT + puts out with most hawk species if that is a concern.

After hawking all season with a track pack last year, I am a firm believer..

- Chris Proctor

[jmnucci]

I just ordered a track pack from western sporting. This is going to my first time "installing" one on my new imprint gxp. Is it something you can usually get right the first time after some studying or should I try to find someone with expierience to give me a hand?

Thanks for the advice.

[Saluqi]

I just ordered a track pack from western sporting. This is going to my first time "installing" one on my new imprint gxp. Is it something you can usually get right the first time after some studying or should I try to find someone with expierience to give me a hand?

Thanks for the advice.

Hi Justin,

It helps to have someone with experience for the first one just so you can see how it is supposed to fit. It's not hard, but you don't want to have a lousy fit and have to buy a refill.

[Dirthawking]

Justin, they are not difficult at all. The hardest part is getting the stitch correct and placed right. It does help if you have done one before. Go to the Marshall web site and look at the tutorial a few times. I have done a few myself, worse case, give me a call. I am in Arvada.

[kurt]

I've used the backpacks for 3 birds now. It does help having someone help you the first time. I'm ordering a new transmitter with the tap on/off feature so I can just leave it in place. I've also found you get a better signal went they're on the ground. Kurt

[RLBagley]

I have been 100% converted from a tail mount to a track pack. I installed 5 track packs last fall on my birds and my friends, all were drug free and easy as can be. If you have a hawk crashing into brush, why not just use a small micro? You don't need that extra booming power that an RT + puts out with most hawk species if that is a concern.

After hawking all season with a track pack last year, I am a firm believer..

- Chris Proctor

Yes, that seems to be a growing consensus worldwide.

Believe it or not there were nearly 2,000 of these sent out to customers last year! Starting back in 2005 we sent out around 30 or so to a small list of "pioneering" individuals, and it's just grown steadily each year since then to where there's now quite a substantial base of users and re-users. It's just been incredible to watch happen. It's well out of the "testing stage" these days and on to a viable, safe proven option.

Fun to notice how it's become a primary choice for a mounting method that you now see used around the world in places like South Africa, Spain and other European countries.

More and more here in the US as well, although we have an older, more intransigent-minded demographic who tend to see all the potential problems first without trying it. And it may never be the ideal option for everybody.

But just like the fantastic hoods you make, one obviously needs to achieve the right fit. So some have probably made early judgments seeing problems with getting the right fit, as falconers learned the process for themselves.

It certainly coincides with recent advances in telemetry design as well, making this "fourth option" so viable (short antennas, tap on mag switch, low-profile shape, etc) whereas years ago it might not have been.

Anyway, be assured that we're working on a next generation design that needs to be much easier to install (no epoxy) and perhaps have a little bit of flexibility and give, without being tight at all, that's the trick.

Not sure if it can be tested and ready by next fall, however, as there's a whole bunch of even cooler things coming along that need all our attention right now.

Should be a great year.

RB

[STait]

Robert, have you had much feedback from guys flying large passage falcons with the back pack? Some passage birds don't seem to tolerate the tail mount and I've always used the leg mount but may consider switching. What have you heard?

[RLBagley]

Robert, have you had much feedback from guys flying large passage falcons with the back pack? Some passage birds don't seem to tolerate the tail mount and I've always used the leg mount but may consider switching. What have you heard?

Well, it may sound trite but even some captive bred birds won't tolerate tail mounts. I had a hybrid work on the feather right above the tail piece until he shattered the quill. I snipped it off and switched to the other deck and he left it alone?

Some birds rip and rip on a leg mount, with all the leverage that gives, but then leave the TrackPack mounted transmitter alone. So there's always exceptions with every personality. And you go with what works for that bird.

But yes, falconers are using TrackPacks on passage birds nowadays all the time. We saw a lot of them on the trip to South Africa, for example.

RB

[rmayes100]

I'm also sold on the Trackpack, I have one on my Barbary falcon. My question is what is the best spot for a second transmitter if you are already using a Trackpack?

[bobpayne]

Robert, have you had much feedback from guys flying large passage falcons with the back pack? Some passage birds don't seem to tolerate the tail mount and I've always used the leg mount but may consider switching. What have you heard?

This seasons passage prairie took to both backpack and tail mount, both were installed in the beginning of the manning process.

My male Harris's has been using a backpack for several seasons now.

I am totally sold on the set up!

[NMHighPlains]

More and more here in the US as well, although we have an older, more intransigent-minded demographic who tend to see all the potential problems first without trying it. And it may never be the ideal option for everybody.

I put a rudimentary picture of a backpack harness in "Falconry Equipment" and all I heard about it was "that's really dangerous!" After installing backpacks on about 150 prairie falcons, numerous golden eagles, several spotted owls, and who knows what else- and re-trapping many of those to remove the harness after their year was up- I'm pretty well convinced of the _relative_ safety of the backpack.

I'll be using one on my new falcon(s) this year as I end my hiatus from falconry.

[eminart]

Hey guys, I bought a receiver and am planning to put a transmitter on my red tail for the first time this season.

Just wondering, now that the trackpacks have been used a couple more years, if the opinions of them are still the same?

I fly my bird without jesses, and like to keep his legs and feet as uncluttered as possible. Just anklets and bells there. And, I worry about a tail mount, because with the amount of heavy brush that my bird crashes, I can envision some pulled tail feathers with that type of mount. So, that brings me to a trackpack.

Have any new negatives about them surfaced? Any more positive reviews?

[hcmcelroy]

Robert,

As you know I've used the back pack since before your company developed the more advanced design now called the trackpack. Your design has worked nicely for my hawks over the years and has been safe. Kimsey mentions using it on research and my guess it has been used on many thousands of research birds of various species in past years.

I like the Scout transmitter with the off/on switch on my gos and HH because the battery is good for months and mount mine relatively loosely. They stay on through the molt.

I must be dreaming because after all these years of searching I feel that my telemetry needs are answered. The Scout is reliable to the extreme. Thanks!

Harry.

[Dirthawking]

Ditto with the backpack and scout!

[Ross]

I have used a trac-pack on a retail and liked it. The scout would be a great transmitter for a RT.

[FredFogg]

Hey guys, I bought a receiver and am planning to put a transmitter on my red tail for the first time this season.

Just wondering, now that the trackpacks have been used a couple more years, if the opinions of them are still the same?

I fly my bird without jesses, and like to keep his legs and feet as uncluttered as possible. Just anklets and bells there. And, I worry about a tail mount, because with the amount of heavy brush that my bird crashes, I can envision some pulled tail feathers with that type of mount. So, that brings me to a trackpack.

Have any new negatives about them surfaced? Any more positive reviews?

Scott, I used a trackpack on my HH with a Scout and she crashed brush after rabbits and I never had a problem. Well, let me correct that, after she caught a rabbit in the brush one time, I looked down and I could see the shiny battery in her transmitter on the backpack. The lid had come off. But I think that was more of a transmitter problem of the lid not staying on tight than anything to do with the backpack. Luckily, I found the lid and just screwed it back on. Pretty neat that the battery stayed in too! I don't think you will go wrong with the backpack and Scout setup on a red-tail. And like Harry, I love the tap on/tap off. I left the transmitter on my HH all season and took it off at the end of the season. She is molting just fine with the backpack still on.

[Chris L.]

Scott my HH is going on 4th molt this year with same trackpack. She has never had any issues. I like power max and a trackpack for my HH or any larger bird. If I can fit a bird with a trackpack it gets. In my opinion, its the best mounting method out there. You can't go wrong with any combo of Marshall telemetry with the trackpack

[460shooter]

I use only trackpacks now. I even have one on my eyas tiercel kestrel now. I have the Micro from marshall on it, and it stays on him all the time, except to change batteries. It is so easy to just hit it with a magnet, and get after it!

I'm sold on the trackpacks.

[eminart]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. Your endorsements have set my mind at ease. It seems like the best way to go for what I need. I'm going to try to get my bird outfitted before the season starts.

[sugezwolf]

Hey guys, I bought a receiver and am planning to put a transmitter on my red tail for the first time this season.

Just wondering, now that the trackpacks have been used a couple more years, if the opinions of them are still the same?

I fly my bird without jesses, and like to keep his legs and feet as uncluttered as possible. Just anklets and bells there. And, I worry about a tail mount, because with the amount of heavy brush that my bird crashes, I can envision some pulled tail feathers with that type of mount. So, that brings me to a trackpack.

Have any new negatives about them surfaced? Any more positive reviews?

Hi Scott - I was always a big fan of backpacks.....using them even before Marshall became involved. However I won't risk using one again after what happened to my tiercel a couple seasons back.

http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx95/sugezwolf/151210-AeroonDrakeShowingInjuries.jpg (http://s745.photobucket.com/user/sugezwolf/media/151210-AeroonDrakeShowingInjuries.jpg.html)

Gerry x

[Dirthawking]

What happened?

[sugezwolf]

What happened?

Hi Mario - he took a drake just as it was heading back to a brook lined by a barbed wire fence and the p-max caught on one of the strands of wire. Fortunately the cross-over stitch on the keel pulled apart to act as a sort of shock-absorber and he got away with bruising & minor cuts.

Gerry x

[Tony James]

Hi Mario - he took a drake just as it was heading back to a brook lined by a barbed wire fence and the p-max caught on one of the strands of wire. Fortunately the cross-over stitch on the keel pulled apart to act as a sort of shock-absorber and he got away with bruising & minor cuts.

Gerry x

Frankly Gerry, I'm surprised there haven't been more accidents like that. After all, if a tail mounted transmitter has the potential to snag, surely a back mounted one is equally likely to do so?

Regards,

Tony.

[eminart]

Well, crap. It appears there are risks to everything.

[sugezwolf]

Frankly Gerry, I'm surprised there haven't been more accidents like that. After all, if a tail mounted transmitter has the potential to snag, surely a back mounted one is equally likely to do so?

Regards,

Tony.


Me also Tony - I thought I had the perfect combination with the back-mount & tail-mount but a recent string of disasters has taught me never to be complacent where hawks are concerned. I have gone back to two tail transmitters as the worst that can happen isn't a disaster! :D

Gerry x

[Saluqi]

Anytime a falcon flies between barbed wire it's in danger, whether from direct strike, a transmitter antenna whipping and wrapping around the wire, or a transmitter taking a direct hit, the danger exists. Personally, and weighing all risks and benefits, I'll keep using a back pack mount as I feel it offers the best mounting alternative.

[Tony James]

Me also Tony - I thought I had the perfect combination with the back-mount & tail-mount but a recent string of disasters has taught me never to be complacent where hawks are concerned. I have gone back to two tail transmitters as the worst that can happen isn't a disaster! :D

Gerry x

I think, as Robert points out at the very beginning, we have to make our decisions based on our own circumstances, which of course vary.

Fortunately there is very little wire on my ground, but I've still had a deck feather snagged on a bramble. I had six seasons with eleven tail feathers in which to ponder that one, although as you say, it could have been much worse.

Funnily enough, twenty years ago in that same field, Marc Tucker's PJ took a partridge, and ended up suspended in an isolated bush by his neck mount.
There is, as has been said, risk in everything.

Regards,

Tony.

[Tony James]

Anytime a falcon flies between barbed wire it's in danger, whether from direct strike, a transmitter antenna whipping and wrapping around the wire, or a transmitter taking a direct hit, the danger exists. Personally, and weighing all risks and benefits, I'll keep using a back pack mount as I feel it offers the best mounting alternative.

Indeed Paul.

Unfortunately, we have to choose the nearest thing to perfect we can, based on our individual circumstances.

Let's hope we all have an incident free season.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[FredFogg]

I would venture to bet that anytime a raptor gets its transmitter, be it backpacked or tail mounted, caught on barb wire the bird would have hit the barb wire anyway. If you look at a raptor in flight with a backpack mount on, it's head is usually above the height of the transmitter, so for them to go through a fence and their head miss the barb wire but the transmitter catch, well, I still think they would have hit the wire anyway. I am going to mount a key chain camera on a backpack this year and will post some footage for everyone to get a better perspective.

[RT Alison]

While imprinting my coops I took extra effort in handling JUST so mounting a trackpak would be a breeze. Lots of time spent touch the bird's back, underneath the wings, etc. When it came time for the install, he just sat unhooded on the perch watching me put it on without so much as a single bate... or bite. I still added a tail clip for a tail saver wrap or a second transmitter.

My HH is just now tame enough to get hers installed. Again I have been expanding the human touch routines to include reaching fingers under her folded wings and lots of back touching. I also trained this one to the hood so I don't expect any real behavior issues in the install. Again, she will continue to have a tail clip for a tail saver wrap or second tranny.

[sugezwolf]

I would venture to bet that anytime a raptor gets its transmitter, be it backpacked or tail mounted, caught on barb wire the bird would have hit the barb wire anyway. If you look at a raptor in flight with a backpack mount on, it's head is usually above the height of the transmitter, so for them to go through a fence and their head miss the barb wire but the transmitter catch, well, I still think they would have hit the wire anyway. I am going to mount a key chain camera on a backpack this year and will post some footage for everyone to get a better perspective.


I'll take yer money Fred. The tiercel in the picture clearly didn't catch his head on the wire - only the transmitter. This is because hawks can't take account of an alien bit of gear attached to their bodies - only their actual bodies.

Gerry x

[RT Alison]

This is why I like the Trackpak mounting system. My tiny male Coops, Ehrler, is wearing one with a Merlin transmitter in this photo.




https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1175608_172655836250944_155821219_n.jpg

[eminart]

Looks good, Michael. That's one thing I like about them too. Or, that I think I WOULD like about them.

[BestBeagler]

Well, I tried one on my sharpie and did not care for it. I love the principle but did not like it on my sharpie. His feathers never laid right no matter how much preening and rousing he did. Even with my help preening. I had it on him for a short while and cut it off finally. I couldn't stand those odd feathers not laying right. In fact, after I took it off he preened himself more and was just overall happier in the care of himself. I might try it on a bigger bird and see how I like it. Also, I was talking to another falconer and we agreed the down side is that you can't see what's going on with that ribbon under all those feathers. You have to be very vigilant in making sure it's a good fit. That means misting the bird down so you can see what's going on. This is just what think after having used it on one bird. My friend uses them exclusively and loves them I do to but they have their downsides like all the mounting methods.

[RT Alison]

If the band is too loose, displaced feathers are going to occur a lot more often. I noticed this after one installation settled in and a larger gap was available under the plate. I carefully picked the glue off, managed to use hemostats to clip onto the ends, relieve tension on the brass tube, then tighten up for a better fit. The displaced feathers greatly reduced at that point. Once the thing is correctly fitted snug, but not too tight, the plate and bands no longer shift around causing feathers to skew.

[hcmcelroy]

Isaac,

No doubt some hawks will not do well with any mounting system as you say but I've ignored feathers being out of place and leave the harness on for years. At times feathers are displaced during the molt but eventually they go back down. My 4th year HH and 3 year gos are ending the molt with the original harness at this time with no problem.
I mount them rather loosely so they do not become tight during the molt.

Harry.