Harlans are not a separate species or even subspecies they are a dark morph (melanistic) redtailed hawk.
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Harlans are not a separate species or even subspecies they are a dark morph (melanistic) redtailed hawk.
I'm pretty sure that a Harlans is a recognized subspecies: B.j. harlaniQuote:
Originally Posted by OATS
Actually she is neither. She is a Rufus Morph as has been stated previously in the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Owl
A true Harlans doesn't have a red-tail!Quote:
Originally Posted by OATS
Good catch Fred. White/creamQuote:
Originally Posted by FredFogg
Oops...my bad. She is a rufous. These pain meds are messing with my head. crazyyQuote:
Originally Posted by frootdog
if you want to get technical wendy is actually a rufous integrate a true rufous looks like this
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/u...6ff21e3db1.jpg
a rufous integrate looks like this
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/u...dult-dark2.jpg
a melanistic looks like this
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/u...wk/Oprah25.jpg
and i don't know what you would call this but i call it a melanistic X2
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/u...sRedTail38.jpg
Scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as an integrate. And many scientists have also conceded that there are not really 14 something RT subspecies either, there are around 3-4. All my ornithology books and studies are at my dad's in storage, so I can't give you all the scientific data. The first 2 pictures you posted are simply a rufous morph. RTs have a very wide range of colors, even within the morphs. The last 2 birds that you said are melanistic are Harlan's hawks. Even Harlan's hawks have a wide variety of coloration. There is a light phase Harlan's hawk that the majority of people would call a Krider's. Here is a picture of that bird: http://www.azfo.org/gallery/2009/htm..._20091213.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by conorhawk
I would go into it more, but I gotta get to the DR. Have a great day!:D
I see nothing in those pictures that would make me identify that bird as a light phase Harlan's hawk! Sorry, just don't see it! Looks like a typical light phase red-tail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Owl
Well, then you can argue with Mr. CLark and Mr. Wheeler (authors of A Photographic Guide to North American Raptors) Mr. Clark also wrote Extreme variation in the tails of Harlan's Hawks and A Field Guide to Hawks of North America.Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFogg
Here is what defines it as a Harlan's:
Keys to identifying a Harlan's Hawk are overall color and the tail. Typical light-morph birds have blackish upperparts that lack warm brown tones, with white markings on the scapulars. Head shows strong facial pattern. Underparts (including throats) are white, without the rufous tones of other Red-tails. The belly band is light or moderate (lacking in "Krider's" Red-tailed Hawks) and the wings have dark patagial marks, unlike Krider's. The wingtips of a Harlan's fall short of the tip of the tail. In contrast to other races of Red-tailed Hawk (and even other buteos), tail patterns in Harlan's Hawk are extraordinarily varied. According to Bill Clark, co-author of "A Photographic Guide to North American Raptors," no two Harlan's tails are exactly alike in color and pattern. Tails can be barred, mottled, spotted, or a combination of all three; often have wavy dark bands, which can be light or heavy, narrow or wide, partial or complete. The color can be white, gray, rufous, with any shade in between, or a combination,. Individual feathers will often have a different pattern or color than other feathers in the same tail!
On this particular bird, the lack of rufous tones in the plumage, the whitish superciliary, wide and wavy dark tail bands, white spotting on the uppersides are all harlani traits.
Hmmm, they say keys are overall color and tail! But then they say no two have the same color and markings on their tail! Yeah, I believe everything they say because they wrote a book! Duh! crazyy Still don't believe that is a Harlan's, don't really care what Clark and Wheeler says!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Owl
OH yeah, then they say the belly band is light or moderate! Come on, that describes just about half the regular juvenile red-tails out there!
They are comparing belly bands to the Krider's, not all RTs. Please don't twist words to suit your needs. And for the rest of your thinking...I guess no one should listen to anything Beebe and Webster have said, or McDermott, or Nick Fox, etc., because according to you, writing a book does not mean anything.crazyy Wheeler and Clark have both studied raptors for over 50 years. Clark worked for the NWF as the Director at the Raptor Information Center, has done extensive research on Harlan's hawks, Harris's hawks and white-tailed hawks. He has written numerous scientific papers and is well respected in the ornithological field. No offense, Fred, but I am going to listen to the opinion of someone that has spent almost their entire life studying these birds over someone who has flown a few RTs.Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFogg
Hey everybody, can you please start a new thread concerning red-tailed hawks and the difference in subspecies. I would hate to cloud this young mans thread on his bird anymore than has already happened.
I will gladly seperate this thread if needed.
Paul, I have seen quite a few Harlan's hawks. But just with every other RT morph, there are different colors within each morph. Like I said, I am gonna listen to the experts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saluqi
And so, the pics I just posted are not of a Harlan's? Is that what you're telling me? Or am I just confused?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Owl
From what Mr. Clark has told a friend of mine - that has a confirmed Harlans - the bird will look like Paul's pic as an adult. As a juvy it was salt and peppered all over. Tail, chest and back. I'm waiting permission to use some of his pics. The thing is the harlans have a light cream colored tail as adults - words from Mr. Clark himself.
Here are a bunch of good pics of Harlan's:
http://www.schmoker.org/BirdPics/HRLH.html
I fail to to see the distinction between a passage light phase Harlan's and a passage Krider's, I don't think you'd know for certain until it molted out.
Paul where did I say that was not a Harlan's? Please don't put words in my mouth. Yes, the picture you posted is a Harlan's. But as I said earlier, there is also a light morph Harlan's that is often mistaken as a Krider's. Here is a study on the Krider's that also explains that the light phase Harlan's is often mistaken for a Krider's. It gives the characteristics of the Krider's and if you go back and look at the picture of the light phase Harlan's you will see the differences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saluqi
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/m...pics/front.jpg
Trapped this Harlans just outside of Woodward last year and just slapped some temp anklets on him for a picture.
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/m...ideos/tail.jpg
This tail made me think twice (even three or four times) as to whether I was sure that this was a Redtail at all. But Wheeler and Clark's book had pictures of Harlan's with the same markings.
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/m...s/IMG_0637.jpg
This bird was trapped down the street from my house. I was driving home from flying my Hybrid and saw a bird facing me that looked basically white up on the pole. I grabbed my bc that I always have with me in the winter and saw yellow eyes as I drove under him. Tossed the trap only to see his red tail as he came down. Beautiful bird though.
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/m...s/IMG_0640.jpg
I guess Brandi because you came off as attacking me, I think you are often misunderstood in your e-communications as being overly defensive, in the future I will take that into consideration when reading your posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Owl
Kim, this is an article written by Mr. Clark on the study of Harlan's hawks (http://www.aba.org/birding/v41n1p30.pdf) and it disputes what you claim he said. Harlan's have a wide variety of tail colors, including rufous colored. This is a quote from his study of Harlan's hawks:Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmerar
"Harlan’s Hawk adult tails, on the other hand, vary greatly in color: white; gray; rufous; and every shade in between, including gray-brown, chestnut, or some combination of these.
How was I attacking you? crazyy If you took it that way then you are reading more into my posts than there is. I simply stated that I knew what a Harlan's hawk looked like. If anything, I should take offense to your post since you seemed to infer that I don't know what a Harlan's hawk looks like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saluqi
To be honest I wasn't reading your posts, I saw folks bickering about what a Harlan's is supposed to look like and I posted pictures of a bird I knew to be a Harlan's. My apologies.
You may very well be right, currently science would disagree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by OATS
They are all redtails. I do not recognize sub species. IMO, great distances are used by taxonomists/classificationophiles that are to lazy to find a new species. But I will admit the Harlans is a dandy looking bird even if there is no redtail.
I knew I shouldn't have hit the send button. Sorry Conor for sparking this off in your thread. Good move relocating it to a new one.
Birders, naturalists, and ornithologists have been unsuccessfully debating this very topic for 150 years so there is no reason for us to agree on it either. This topic has been near and dear to me for some time since I have spent my whole life in the primary breeding region of Harlans and where the large majority of our redtails are Harlans phase. Yep I said phase. When one examines the scientific definition of a species or subspecies there is no biological justification for Harlan's hawks to be considered a separate subspecies let alone a separate species which they were considered for a long time. Many differing opinions amongst the experts out there. For every paper supporting a subspecies designation there is a study contradicting it. I, for one have seen hundreds if not thousands of Harlans, handled more than I can count, and have hunted them for many seasons (even have one in the mews as we speak). Many falconers in Alaska currently have Harlans and western phase RTs they hunt with. Around here, anybody who has hunted RTs for any amount of time and has experience with both phases can tell you that they are absolutely just redtails of a different hue and no two Harlans are colored the same. Every year we find a new nest or two where one of the parents is a traditional western phase and one is a Harlans. What does that make the offspring? Certainly not a different subspecies? Just like a litter of rabbits, dogs, etc. may have different color offspring, birds with diverse visual characteristics like redtails do the same.
I don't want this thread to turn into a debate with people's personalities clashing over the inability to agree so let's be nice. I'm not big on arguing over something that really doesn't matter so we may have to agree to disagree. A redtail is a redtail. They are great falconry birds no matter what color they are.
Amen Tony. BTW, that bird in my title pic is a Harlans. Guess what it is finishing up it's first moult and has grown a tail of many different colors including RED. That bird is getting released tomorrow. =)Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123abc
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123abc
So, do you not recognize Peregrines as peales, anatum, tundrius, etc? Those are all subspecies...
clappQuote:
Originally Posted by forestfalcon
This bird was at Nafa in Amarillo. Never found out whose it was but I'm sure someone here would recognize it...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...DSCF0013-1.jpg
I recognize those as peregrine subspecies. We have all three here in Alaska. They're breeding ranges are regionally separated which generally precludes interbreedings although this occurs at the fringes of their ranges. A requirement of being a subspecies is that the species can physically interbreed but are generally prohibited from doing so be some sort of real or perceived barrier.Quote:
Originally Posted by forestfalcon
Anyone know how to tell the other sub-species apart,Calurus,Borealis and Umbrinus?
Sorry, Paul. Since you posted that picture right after I posted and said here is a Harlan's for you, I thought you were directing it specifically to me. But I was not certainly not attacking you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Saluqi
Eric, if you go back and reread my posts, I have basically said the same things you just said. I do not believe that every color morph (or phase as you call it) is a separate subspecies. If there are true RT subspecies, it is only a few. I also said that the Harlan's have a variety of tail colors, including rufous. The only thing we do disagree on is which phase Wendy is. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by OATS
There is not really a specific look that separates them apart as there is a great color variation among RTs. Hence the reason I am in the taxonomic group that does not recognize them as subspecies. But those 3 RTs are defined by where they breed.Quote:
Originally Posted by rri32701
Buteo jamaicensis borealis --- eastern red-tailed hawk
Buteo jamaicensis calurus --- western red-tailed hawk
Buteo jamaicensis umbrinus --- Florida red-tailed hawk
Here are the pics of my friends RT. Cash has only dropped one tail feather so far and he says it's red with a black band and spotted.
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...sh_1_front.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u.../cash_back.jpg
I will post a picture of him when he's done with the molt.
And I can't leave this out
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...Cash_bunny.jpg
Nope. Peregrine is a peregrine. A gyr is a gyr. A coopie a coopie a Red shoulder is a red shoulder. A ferruge is a ferruge. My Nevada ferruges are just the same as the S. Dakota ferruges. But then, I like to keep it simple. Put em in a box if healthy breeding babies pop out 9 months later, bingo! The same thing. Regardless of distance separation, migration and so on. My opinion. :D
I understand your thought on this, but many subspecies aren't just labeled that simply because of separation/migration. Many of these subspecies have very obvious morphological differences, for instance, a Harlans redtail has shorter wings than other subspecies of redtail...Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123abc