Hooding your bird

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Originally Posted by Martin Hollinshead

Oliver,
The braces on the hood are loosened/opened enough to permit the hood’s immediate removal. Hawks trained to fly this way explode from the glove, the hood barely clear of their head. The fast removal tells the bird, ‘out there is a hare you can get up to’ and this promise has the already concentrated and fully focussed bird give absolutely everything.
Of course, this puts all the weight on the falconer: he has to get it right, has to assess hares/conditions correctly every time in what might be a split second. If he keeps getting it wrong, commitment goes out the window (which sort of takes us back to the thread on developing a motivated hawk, or ruining one). I will add that the preparation for this is done with lure flights out of the hood.
Another benefit of course, is that when group hawking, the bird doesn’t have to watch other hawks chase hares while she waits for her turn – another killer of motivation.
On your training to keep the bird sitting on the glove and ignoring quarry with a slight special movement, I cannot comment – other than to say I’d love to see it in operation.
Martin

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I think I get the picture, and I would love to see this done! lol, kinda like pulling a trigger on a gun? I'm not very quick and nimble with my fat fingers and would for sure mess something like that up.

Speaking of group hunting, if you have ever seen a marine mammal show there are quite a few dolphins being held at control with one person. I think it might be more difficult in this situation, again I have no experience with it in birds of prey, but we would ask one dolphin to go do something, or two, or three. We could do the same with seals, sea lions, and I've seen it done with tropical birds. In a lot of cases you could use that selection process to reward other behavior. I know it's completely different situations, but so far I have never met concepts that couldn't be worked in with other animals. I'm also aware that mutliple birds in the field can be a complete hand full, and putting hoods on it can make the job very easy. Again, what do I know, I'm new to this whole thing and could quite possibly be overly ambitious.

A bit off topic, but if you have not seen it yet they even work with their sharks at the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago. Different individuals are trained to come to different shapes and colors for feeding time. Ken Ramirez does big things there, not only have attended a lecture of his, but have worked with him closely on one occasion and seen him work quite a few times personally. He has a book titled Animal Training, it's got some good stuff in there dealing with OC for a variety of situation. In my opinion, and experience, birds are smarter than fish. I think there is a lot more these birds are capable of than we give them credit for.

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Originally Posted by AK Rev

Your bird becomes aware of quarry many times before you do. That's the split second that makes the difference many times. If my bird only left when I told it to I would be missing about 1/2 of the slips and needlessly delaying most of the others. Just my take on it.

I like what Terence said about hooding...it's actually a kindness to the bird. Well put.

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Excellent point and I thought about this as well. If I find that it might work better that way, we will go that route as well. But in the example above, they can't see the game with a hood on either, so it's totally on the human there as well.

Right but in that scenario, the bird would not be hooded on the fist for those reasons. Look around here for a recent topic on "can your sharpie do this?" (something like that). You'll see just how fast the reaction times can be for a raptor that isn't hindered if you view the video of the bird launcher.

Speaking of which, a whole other subject is whether to hold on to the jesses or even whether to remove them in the field. Actually, that subject tracks about the same as this one in regards to reactionary times, etc. but jesses are useful at times...even essential.

Think of the hood and the jesses as tools...not always used but always close at hand.

Oliver, separate question...do you have any video of you training animals at work? I would be interested to see that in a separate topic. Part of my interest in raptors goes way back to seeing trainers at Sea World & Marineland as a kid. Fascinating stuff.

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Originally Posted by AK Rev

Right but in that scenario, the bird would not be hooded on the fist for those reasons. Look around here for a recent topic on "can your sharpie do this?" (something like that). You'll see just how fast the reaction times can be for a raptor that isn't hindered if you view the video of the bird launcher.

Speaking of which, a whole other subject is whether to hold on to the jesses or even whether to remove them in the field. Actually, that subject tracks about the same as this one in regards to reactionary times, etc. but jesses are useful at times...even essential.

Think of the hood and the jesses as tools...not always used but always close at hand.

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I'll try to find it, if someone finds it before I do post a link.

excellents points clapp

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Originally Posted by AK Rev

Oliver, separate question...do you have any video of you training animals at work? I would be interested to see that in a separate topic. Part of my interest in raptors goes way back to seeing trainers at Sea World & Marineland as a kid. Fascinating stuff.

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Ummm, I'm sure I can find some pictures for sure, video might be hard to find. I'll see what I can dig up!

This has basically been covered already, but I wanted to give a fellow apprentice my perspective to the question.

I had my first bird last season, a PMRT that despised the hood (I think mainly because of my inexperience in jamming it on his head when he was trapped - but that's maybe a discussion for another thread). Because of his aversion to the hood and my inexperience with hooding a bird, I gave up hooding him very early on and relied on the giant hood to take him anywhere.

I ignored the advice of more experienced falconers who kept telling me that I needed to get the bird used to the hood. But from my limited experience, the GH was more than adequate in the field, and I managed equipment changes fairly well with the bird on my fist.

However, when my bird broke his coracoid and wishbone, it became glaringly obvious that I was foolish to not train my bird to the hood. The x-rays at the vet's were traumatic without the hood, and the physical therapy made the bird absolutely despise me. If he had been hooded, the x-rays would not have been such an issue, and certainly he would not have associated me with the pain/stress of physical therapy that was necessary to help him heal correctly. The lost trust and the stress it caused could have been minimized if he would take the hood. This bird eventually caught Asper and died, which I believe was partly due to the stress the injury caused. Could this have been prevented if the bird hooded? Who knows - but it might have.

My PFRT for this year spent a lot of time in that new, properly fitted, quality hood, from the very first day. She is hooded daily and no longer has any issue with it. I'll make sure that every bird I have from here on out is trained to the hood.

I think this is an excellent example of when a hood would be a great tool in the arsenal of many.

I think I've just seen too many bring the hood out at the first sign of stress, or the anticipation of stress, or maybe just because they don't wanna deal with it. I think it's important with any animal to realize that a little bit of stress isn't necessarily a bad thing. Done properly you can get through it, without pushing the bird too far (what is too far is for the individual to determine as we all know our animals better than anyone else). This not only helps the bird learn how to deal with that particular situation, but also helps them learn that it is possible to get over things that might stress them in the future, learn to learn. You are certainly not teaching them anything by shutting it off, the only thing they might be learning is that if they feel uncomfortable they can pitch a fit and you will take care of it. Unfortunately you see the aforementioned in a lot of people's kids.

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Originally Posted by Mandragen

or maybe just because they don't wanna deal with it.

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Bingo! You got it. If your bird is well made to and accepts the hood fine,why not use it? confusedd
My last redtail took the hood great,just pop it on. I have a few spots where I walk down the side of the road to get to a slip. Instead of walking down with the bird bating and nervous about the cars sailing by,I just popped on the hood.Cut into the woods and pop the hood off to start hunting.Sure I could have spent time working with the bird to get him used to the traffic,but why bother,when I can use the hood.I'd much rather spend the time hunting than working on a problem(that isn't a problem at all if I use the hood :D)

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Originally Posted by Squirrelhawkin

Bingo! You got it. If your bird is well made to and accepts the hood fine,why not use it? confusedd
My last redtail took the hood great,just pop it on. I have a few spots where I walk down the side of the road to get to a slip. Instead of walking down with the bird bating and nervous about the cars sailing by,I just popped on the hood.Cut into the woods and pop the hood off to start hunting.Sure I could have spent time working with the bird to get him used to the traffic,but why bother,when I can use the hood.I'd much rather spend the time hunting than working on a problem(that isn't a problem at all if I use the hood :D)

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Nick, I think the utmost importance should be placed on your and the bird's safety. If there are areas where you need to walk right next to a highly traveled road, it sounds like a great idea the hood should be used. I'm not trying to advocate putting our animals in dangerous situations, or potential future dangerous situations. If there is even a remote possibility that the bird be released in the future, you don't want it used to being close to cars, that's a death sentence. However, I don't think that using the hood just because it's easy is the best thing for progress, both for the trainer or the bird. No one can say that they are totally against stressing the bird slightly, if that were the case we wouldn't catch them.

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Originally Posted by Mandragen

I think I get the picture, and I would love to see this done!

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Oliver,
I just remembered this account. It’s not at all technical, is in fact quite light, but if you have a few minutes to kill it might paint a picture of this type of flight (if you get bored with the story, just scroll through to the flight!)
http://business.virgin.net/fernhill.press/extract8.htm
Martin

Hooding is essential to get the most out of falconry. If hunting is not the purpose of one that has a raptor....the hood will not make a lot of sense. Docility and managability are greatly enhanced with a hood.

Interestingly, falconry in Europe was "revolutionized" by the hood. It was intorduced to King Frederick II by Arabian falconers. Which means that european falconers attempted to fly birds w/o hoods for a long time.

That must have been interesting.

killer story and a beautiful hare for Christmas dinner.

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Originally Posted by Ricko

Hooding is essential to get the most out of falconry. .

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I disagree with this single statement. Granted a hood can be an asset but I venture to say a fair number of falconers (particularly those flying RT's and Harris who use giant hoods) do not use the hood and they have a lot of fun.

In my case using a hood would be nice but I have only 1 good eye and no depth perception. Ever try to hood a bird when you can't quite judge where its head is? (and I don't mean in a psychological sense) Not pretty... I tried for years but couldn't really get the hang of it even with birds that had been made to the hood by others.
Eventually I gave it up in frustration.

All in all I would say that if someone is not good at it they are better off using a giant hood than ending up with a bird with some issues because they are constantly trying (poorly) to hood the bird. Not everyone can be good at everything.....

Maybe someday we one-eyed falconers should get together and trade goffy stories. I've met quite a few over the years, most of them long wingers with hooded falcons on their fists. Steve Chindgrine, Jack Oar, Jeff Broadbent to name a few.
Michael Gregston
Montana

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Originally Posted by footbound

Maybe someday we one-eyed falconers should get together and trade goofy stories. I've met quite a few over the years, most of them long wingers with hooded falcons on their fists. Steve Chindgrine, Jack Oar, Jeff Broadbent to name a few.
Michael Gregston
Montana

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Or even better some of you could show me how you manage to hood a bird sans depth perception without pissing it off.

So how does one get around the lack of depth perception? All the 2 eyed falconers I have asked about this simply shrugged their shoulders. They can't imagine what it is like to not have depth perception. Of course they also like to laugh at tales of being clocked by a baseball as a kid, etc......

Olliver,
I would like to point out that apprenticeship is not just about you training a bird, but also hopefully a mentor training you. A hood is at very least a useful piece of equipment- arguably essential for certain types of falconry. Would it not make sense to learn to use one while beginning your falconry training? Saying one wants to be a falconer without learning how to hood is akin to saying you want to train dogs but don't want to use a leash. Learn to hood. You will find it very useful if you fly certain types of birds in the future. At least if you learn how and decide to dispense with it, it is still a "tool" that you can use if you need it. It seems to me you are willing to great efforts to get around training a bird to hood. hooding is not that difficult. Most passage redtails take to it easily. If you end up flying birds where hooding is not important you may decide to forego it in the future, but at least you will have developed the skill early on and have the ability to use it. If there is some problem like depth perception at least give it a try on one bird. Once you are able to hood smoothly I doubt you will see it as a wasted effort to have learned the skill.

As a matter of fact Ron I am a bit clumsy at hooding falcons and never could sneak up on the 2 shifty gos hawks I have flown. I don't want to get to elimental here and risk offending you but hood training is accomplished during manning when the hawk spends a lot of time frozen with fear, it's been covered here and elsewhere extensivly. As far as depth perception I can tell you how I trained myself. I lost sight in my left eye just after I turned 21 and spent the better part of a year relearning how to flick a cigerret ash into a long neck beer bottle while trying to talk the pants off young maidens. I got better at all of it with practice.:D Come in low and slow and before they know it they are had.

It’s interesting that until about ten years ago a hooded Harris here in the UK would have been quite a talking point. Very few used the hood with the parabuteo. Today, hood makers find the Harris giving them a nice steady trade.
Martin

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Originally Posted by footbound

As a matter of fact Ron I am a bit clumsy at hooding falcons and never could sneak up on the 2 shifty gos hawks I have flown. I don't want to get to elimental here and risk offending you but hood training is accomplished during manning when the hawk spends a lot of time frozen with fear, it's been covered here and elsewhere extensivly. As far as depth perception I can tell you how I trained myself. I lost sight in my left eye just after I turned 21 and spent the better part of a year relearning how to flick a cigerret ash into a long neck beer bottle while trying to talk the pants off young maidens. I got better at all of it with practice.:D Come in low and slow and before they know it they are had.

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I am pretty hard to offend. To be honest I had sort of a remote apprenticeship and had to learn a lot of things on my own that would have been much easier to master with someone to demonstrate. Hooding is simply one of those things that I could never get the hang of. I would definitely never recommend that for anyone starting out in the sport.

Now with regard to the coming in low and slow - is that your hooding technique or your tactic when chasing maidens? confusedd

This bit of medieval drivel from the 14th century has served me well.
"Women and falcons are easily tamed: If you lure them the righrt way they come to meet their man."
michael Gregston

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Originally Posted by Ross

Olliver,
I would like to point out that apprenticeship is not just about you training a bird, but also hopefully a mentor training you. A hood is at very least a useful piece of equipment- arguably essential for certain types of falconry. Would it not make sense to learn to use one while beginning your falconry training? Saying one wants to be a falconer without learning how to hood is akin to saying you want to train dogs but don't want to use a leash. Learn to hood. You will find it very useful if you fly certain types of birds in the future. At least if you learn how and decide to dispense with it, it is still a "tool" that you can use if you need it. It seems to me you are willing to great efforts to get around training a bird to hood. hooding is not that difficult. Most passage redtails take to it easily. If you end up flying birds where hooding is not important you may decide to forego it in the future, but at least you will have developed the skill early on and have the ability to use it. If there is some problem like depth perception at least give it a try on one bird. Once you are able to hood smoothly I doubt you will see it as a wasted effort to have learned the skill.

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Ross, I can see where that would be one's first impression of this thread. This thread was never started with intention of me not learning how to do something. In fact, the intentions were quite the opposite. I started this discussion/debate to try and get a feel for all the different situations where a hood was needed. I felt as though I had a grasp on what hoods did, when they were useful, and how they could make life easier. I just wasn't convinced from personal experience that I had seen a moment where it couldn't have been done differently, more like I've trained in the past, that is why I wanted more examples from others with different experiences.

All too often you see people doing things just because that's the way they are done, but that's never been my angle. I have to push the subject and the reasoning behind it to make sure I fully understand it. When someone asks me, "is that necessary", I want to be able to tell them with full certainty "yes" and be able to explain why without hesitation. Maybe it comes from working with marine mammals and all the scrutiny that comes with. It wasn't uncommon to be talking with someone and have them be a member of certain organizations undercover waiting for you to slip up in your words so they could use that against you, very often we were being video taped or recorded without knowing it, just search it on youtube, lol.

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Originally Posted by passagejack

Great post Dan!

Oliver its great you are asking questions and doing your homework. clapp

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Oliver, I totally agree with Jeremy, keep asking questions. This is the place for it.

I may have missed it somewhere else, but who's your sponsor? It looks like you live nearby. Are you connected with Damon, Dan, Larry, Fred, or any other falconers up North of you??? Are you planning to be in Goldsboro?

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Originally Posted by NCFalconer

Oliver, I totally agree with Jeremy, keep asking questions. This is the place for it.

I may have missed it somewhere else, but who's your sponsor? It looks like you live nearby. Are you connected with Damon, Dan, Larry, Fred, or any other falconers up North of you??? Are you planning to be in Goldsboro?

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Yeah I'm over near Mooresville, where abouts are you? I would love to go out hunting with more falconers in the area. Chip is actually my sponsor and I have met a few of those listed above I believe. Chip is over in Lillington but we see each other quite often. I won't make the Goldsboro meet because it happens to be an old friends birthday, who is coming to stay with me for the weekend.

Oliver: sent you a pm.

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Originally Posted by Mandragen

Yeah I'm over near Mooresville, where abouts are you? I would love to go out hunting with more falconers in the area. Chip is actually my sponsor and I have met a few of those listed above I believe. Chip is over in Lillington but we see each other quite often. I won't make the Goldsboro meet because it happens to be an old friends birthday, who is coming to stay with me for the weekend.

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Oliver, Dan and I are in Winston-Salem, you are welcome to come up and go out with us anytime. Dan is flying a merlin and I have a red-tail and hopefully, something else in the works. LOL Damon has moved to VA, he used to live in Statesville. And I am sure the one you met was Larry, he lives between Statesville and Winston-Salem.

As far as hooding, you have asked a lot of questions and you have heard a lot of answers. My answer to you is just remember what you have asked as you go through your first year as an apprentice and say to yourself, hmmm, would this be a good time to train this bird to handle this situation or would this be a good time to hood this bird? I think you will find out the times that hooding comes in handy and the times that you need to work with the bird on a given situation. Time and experience are the best teachers.

Oh yeah, and by all means, watch out for that Daren guy, he is trouble! LOL toungeout :D

1. Ease in transportation both in vehicle and when walking to hunting locale and returning to vehicle.

2. After transferring off a kill which allows the hawk to "re-boot" and allows the falconer to put game away.

3. A stressful situation arises suddenly and you hood the hawk thereby eliminating or at least severely reducing said stress.

4. When changing the anklets, bells etc, it is far easier to do with a perched and hooded hawk thereby eliminating casting the hawk.

5. Coping the beak is made easier with a hooded hawk.

6. Walking through doors.

7. Taking the hawk to the Vet.

These are only some of the reasons why I love to hood my hawk. I cannot think of any reason why not to hood my hawk. This is my preference.

Steve.

Oliver,

You seem to be going to extreme lengths to avoid the use of one of the most useful tools in falconry.

Since you clearly have serious animal training expertise, then why not clicker-train your hawk to the hood and be done with it.

That's even fun/rewarding (for both of you) and a lot more fun I'd venture than training any hawk to not launch from the first when it sees favoured quarry.

Regards,
Steve

I have thought about this allot. I did not hood my early birds, as I never learned how. I did ok, but then I needed to take a bird to the vet for a severed extensor tendon and do a bit of work on her subsequent to bringing her home. I vowed after that to ALWAYS hood train my birds and now I love it. You are correct, there are very few situations where a hood is an inescapable necessity but for me it has come down to the simple fact that I have hawks to hunt with them and the only reason I train them is to hunt them. If I didn't hunt I wouldn't train. Given that, the hood one remarkably good, safe and effective management tool in a multitude of situations. True you could probably train the bird to deal with most of those situations but honestly I don't want to, I want to hunt, put the bird away and hunt the next day. I don't even like keeping them over the summer. Many people find just as much enjoyment in training as they do in hunting, and for them, great, have at it. their birds are undoubtedly better trained than mine. I still suggest you make your bird to the hood, as it will make both your and their life easier. and the bottom line with passage birds is stress kills. However you choose to do it if you want to keep a passage bird for any length of time, you should really focus on keeping stress down, your bird will thank you, and live longer.

Oliver I've hood trained all 6 of my RT's and have found the sooner you start the better. Be persistent and consistant. I lost 2 leashes while hunting in brutal briars the other day and was very thankful to have a hood trained bird. You have missed your window with this bird.

Eric Hausman

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Originally Posted by Eric Hausman

You have missed your window with this bird.

Eric Hausman

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That is very far from the truth. Does oliver even have a bird anyway?

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Originally Posted by JRedig

That is very far from the truth. Does oliver even have a bird anyway?

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I'm going to step it it again, I just know it...

With my years and years of inexperience to back me up, I can say that even a very hoodshy bird can be made to the hood.
I know this because I did it. I made my male redtail hoodshy, then used the time tested technique of WATER MANNING. I think I posted this on another thread, so I won't go into details here. Short story, IT WORKS !

I would refer anyone to American Falconry magazine. I don't recall which issue. It was last winter. Steve Jones wrote it and I got my 15 min. of fame by having a letter to editor published in next issue about how I used this method. Did I mention IT WORKS

I won't say if it works with all raptor species. Inexperience rears its ugly head again.

On another note. I've watched this thread and it seems (sometimes) to imply that training one of this planet's species is the same as another. I couldn't disagree more. Punish your goshawk like you would your dog and see what you get. I believe there is a reason why E-collars don't come in sizes to fit Coopers hawks. Conditioned response can be thought as nearly universal but there are differences some subtle, some not so subtle.

Frankly, I like hoods. Hoods are good.

This is one of the threads that I have been watching as I am working on hood training my female kestrel. I have a question about the value of having a hood at the time of capture. It seems to me that it would have been a lot easier to break out the hood while she was socked. I also feel that this would lessen stress down the road. I am just an apprentice, and this is the first kestrel I have dealt with, but am I right in my thinking?

old thread, but does it make, (harm the bird or no difference) if the bird is hooded in the mews all day (8 hours) while one is away at work

Fresh caught falcons spend most of their lives in the hood at least for the first 2 weeks. I would feel bad if I left my made falcons hooded in the mews. Why not leave her un hooded? Nervous hawk?