Quote:
Originally Posted by AK Rev
Ummm, I'm sure I can find some pictures for sure, video might be hard to find. I'll see what I can dig up!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK Rev
Ummm, I'm sure I can find some pictures for sure, video might be hard to find. I'll see what I can dig up!
This has basically been covered already, but I wanted to give a fellow apprentice my perspective to the question.
I had my first bird last season, a PMRT that despised the hood (I think mainly because of my inexperience in jamming it on his head when he was trapped - but that's maybe a discussion for another thread). Because of his aversion to the hood and my inexperience with hooding a bird, I gave up hooding him very early on and relied on the giant hood to take him anywhere.
I ignored the advice of more experienced falconers who kept telling me that I needed to get the bird used to the hood. But from my limited experience, the GH was more than adequate in the field, and I managed equipment changes fairly well with the bird on my fist.
However, when my bird broke his coracoid and wishbone, it became glaringly obvious that I was foolish to not train my bird to the hood. The x-rays at the vet's were traumatic without the hood, and the physical therapy made the bird absolutely despise me. If he had been hooded, the x-rays would not have been such an issue, and certainly he would not have associated me with the pain/stress of physical therapy that was necessary to help him heal correctly. The lost trust and the stress it caused could have been minimized if he would take the hood. This bird eventually caught Asper and died, which I believe was partly due to the stress the injury caused. Could this have been prevented if the bird hooded? Who knows - but it might have.
My PFRT for this year spent a lot of time in that new, properly fitted, quality hood, from the very first day. She is hooded daily and no longer has any issue with it. I'll make sure that every bird I have from here on out is trained to the hood.
I think this is an excellent example of when a hood would be a great tool in the arsenal of many.
I think I've just seen too many bring the hood out at the first sign of stress, or the anticipation of stress, or maybe just because they don't wanna deal with it. I think it's important with any animal to realize that a little bit of stress isn't necessarily a bad thing. Done properly you can get through it, without pushing the bird too far (what is too far is for the individual to determine as we all know our animals better than anyone else). This not only helps the bird learn how to deal with that particular situation, but also helps them learn that it is possible to get over things that might stress them in the future, learn to learn. You are certainly not teaching them anything by shutting it off, the only thing they might be learning is that if they feel uncomfortable they can pitch a fit and you will take care of it. Unfortunately you see the aforementioned in a lot of people's kids.
Bingo! You got it. If your bird is well made to and accepts the hood fine,why not use it? confuseddQuote:
Originally Posted by Mandragen
My last redtail took the hood great,just pop it on. I have a few spots where I walk down the side of the road to get to a slip. Instead of walking down with the bird bating and nervous about the cars sailing by,I just popped on the hood.Cut into the woods and pop the hood off to start hunting.Sure I could have spent time working with the bird to get him used to the traffic,but why bother,when I can use the hood.I'd much rather spend the time hunting than working on a problem(that isn't a problem at all if I use the hood :D)
Nick, I think the utmost importance should be placed on your and the bird's safety. If there are areas where you need to walk right next to a highly traveled road, it sounds like a great idea the hood should be used. I'm not trying to advocate putting our animals in dangerous situations, or potential future dangerous situations. If there is even a remote possibility that the bird be released in the future, you don't want it used to being close to cars, that's a death sentence. However, I don't think that using the hood just because it's easy is the best thing for progress, both for the trainer or the bird. No one can say that they are totally against stressing the bird slightly, if that were the case we wouldn't catch them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrelhawkin
Oliver,Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandragen
I just remembered this account. It’s not at all technical, is in fact quite light, but if you have a few minutes to kill it might paint a picture of this type of flight (if you get bored with the story, just scroll through to the flight!)
http://business.virgin.net/fernhill.press/extract8.htm
Martin
Hooding is essential to get the most out of falconry. If hunting is not the purpose of one that has a raptor....the hood will not make a lot of sense. Docility and managability are greatly enhanced with a hood.
Interestingly, falconry in Europe was "revolutionized" by the hood. It was intorduced to King Frederick II by Arabian falconers. Which means that european falconers attempted to fly birds w/o hoods for a long time.
That must have been interesting.
killer story and a beautiful hare for Christmas dinner.
I disagree with this single statement. Granted a hood can be an asset but I venture to say a fair number of falconers (particularly those flying RT's and Harris who use giant hoods) do not use the hood and they have a lot of fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricko
In my case using a hood would be nice but I have only 1 good eye and no depth perception. Ever try to hood a bird when you can't quite judge where its head is? (and I don't mean in a psychological sense) Not pretty... I tried for years but couldn't really get the hang of it even with birds that had been made to the hood by others.
Eventually I gave it up in frustration.
All in all I would say that if someone is not good at it they are better off using a giant hood than ending up with a bird with some issues because they are constantly trying (poorly) to hood the bird. Not everyone can be good at everything.....
Maybe someday we one-eyed falconers should get together and trade goffy stories. I've met quite a few over the years, most of them long wingers with hooded falcons on their fists. Steve Chindgrine, Jack Oar, Jeff Broadbent to name a few.
Michael Gregston
Montana
Or even better some of you could show me how you manage to hood a bird sans depth perception without pissing it off.Quote:
Originally Posted by footbound
So how does one get around the lack of depth perception? All the 2 eyed falconers I have asked about this simply shrugged their shoulders. They can't imagine what it is like to not have depth perception. Of course they also like to laugh at tales of being clocked by a baseball as a kid, etc......
Olliver,
I would like to point out that apprenticeship is not just about you training a bird, but also hopefully a mentor training you. A hood is at very least a useful piece of equipment- arguably essential for certain types of falconry. Would it not make sense to learn to use one while beginning your falconry training? Saying one wants to be a falconer without learning how to hood is akin to saying you want to train dogs but don't want to use a leash. Learn to hood. You will find it very useful if you fly certain types of birds in the future. At least if you learn how and decide to dispense with it, it is still a "tool" that you can use if you need it. It seems to me you are willing to great efforts to get around training a bird to hood. hooding is not that difficult. Most passage redtails take to it easily. If you end up flying birds where hooding is not important you may decide to forego it in the future, but at least you will have developed the skill early on and have the ability to use it. If there is some problem like depth perception at least give it a try on one bird. Once you are able to hood smoothly I doubt you will see it as a wasted effort to have learned the skill.
As a matter of fact Ron I am a bit clumsy at hooding falcons and never could sneak up on the 2 shifty gos hawks I have flown. I don't want to get to elimental here and risk offending you but hood training is accomplished during manning when the hawk spends a lot of time frozen with fear, it's been covered here and elsewhere extensivly. As far as depth perception I can tell you how I trained myself. I lost sight in my left eye just after I turned 21 and spent the better part of a year relearning how to flick a cigerret ash into a long neck beer bottle while trying to talk the pants off young maidens. I got better at all of it with practice.:D Come in low and slow and before they know it they are had.
It’s interesting that until about ten years ago a hooded Harris here in the UK would have been quite a talking point. Very few used the hood with the parabuteo. Today, hood makers find the Harris giving them a nice steady trade.
Martin
I am pretty hard to offend. To be honest I had sort of a remote apprenticeship and had to learn a lot of things on my own that would have been much easier to master with someone to demonstrate. Hooding is simply one of those things that I could never get the hang of. I would definitely never recommend that for anyone starting out in the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by footbound
Now with regard to the coming in low and slow - is that your hooding technique or your tactic when chasing maidens? confusedd
This bit of medieval drivel from the 14th century has served me well.
"Women and falcons are easily tamed: If you lure them the righrt way they come to meet their man."
michael Gregston
Ross, I can see where that would be one's first impression of this thread. This thread was never started with intention of me not learning how to do something. In fact, the intentions were quite the opposite. I started this discussion/debate to try and get a feel for all the different situations where a hood was needed. I felt as though I had a grasp on what hoods did, when they were useful, and how they could make life easier. I just wasn't convinced from personal experience that I had seen a moment where it couldn't have been done differently, more like I've trained in the past, that is why I wanted more examples from others with different experiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross
All too often you see people doing things just because that's the way they are done, but that's never been my angle. I have to push the subject and the reasoning behind it to make sure I fully understand it. When someone asks me, "is that necessary", I want to be able to tell them with full certainty "yes" and be able to explain why without hesitation. Maybe it comes from working with marine mammals and all the scrutiny that comes with. It wasn't uncommon to be talking with someone and have them be a member of certain organizations undercover waiting for you to slip up in your words so they could use that against you, very often we were being video taped or recorded without knowing it, just search it on youtube, lol.
Oliver, I totally agree with Jeremy, keep asking questions. This is the place for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by passagejack
I may have missed it somewhere else, but who's your sponsor? It looks like you live nearby. Are you connected with Damon, Dan, Larry, Fred, or any other falconers up North of you??? Are you planning to be in Goldsboro?
Yeah I'm over near Mooresville, where abouts are you? I would love to go out hunting with more falconers in the area. Chip is actually my sponsor and I have met a few of those listed above I believe. Chip is over in Lillington but we see each other quite often. I won't make the Goldsboro meet because it happens to be an old friends birthday, who is coming to stay with me for the weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by NCFalconer
Oliver: sent you a pm.
Oliver, Dan and I are in Winston-Salem, you are welcome to come up and go out with us anytime. Dan is flying a merlin and I have a red-tail and hopefully, something else in the works. LOL Damon has moved to VA, he used to live in Statesville. And I am sure the one you met was Larry, he lives between Statesville and Winston-Salem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandragen
As far as hooding, you have asked a lot of questions and you have heard a lot of answers. My answer to you is just remember what you have asked as you go through your first year as an apprentice and say to yourself, hmmm, would this be a good time to train this bird to handle this situation or would this be a good time to hood this bird? I think you will find out the times that hooding comes in handy and the times that you need to work with the bird on a given situation. Time and experience are the best teachers.
Oh yeah, and by all means, watch out for that Daren guy, he is trouble! LOL toungeout :D
1. Ease in transportation both in vehicle and when walking to hunting locale and returning to vehicle.
2. After transferring off a kill which allows the hawk to "re-boot" and allows the falconer to put game away.
3. A stressful situation arises suddenly and you hood the hawk thereby eliminating or at least severely reducing said stress.
4. When changing the anklets, bells etc, it is far easier to do with a perched and hooded hawk thereby eliminating casting the hawk.
5. Coping the beak is made easier with a hooded hawk.
6. Walking through doors.
7. Taking the hawk to the Vet.
These are only some of the reasons why I love to hood my hawk. I cannot think of any reason why not to hood my hawk. This is my preference.
Steve.
Oliver,
You seem to be going to extreme lengths to avoid the use of one of the most useful tools in falconry.
Since you clearly have serious animal training expertise, then why not clicker-train your hawk to the hood and be done with it.
That's even fun/rewarding (for both of you) and a lot more fun I'd venture than training any hawk to not launch from the first when it sees favoured quarry.
Regards,
Steve
I have thought about this allot. I did not hood my early birds, as I never learned how. I did ok, but then I needed to take a bird to the vet for a severed extensor tendon and do a bit of work on her subsequent to bringing her home. I vowed after that to ALWAYS hood train my birds and now I love it. You are correct, there are very few situations where a hood is an inescapable necessity but for me it has come down to the simple fact that I have hawks to hunt with them and the only reason I train them is to hunt them. If I didn't hunt I wouldn't train. Given that, the hood one remarkably good, safe and effective management tool in a multitude of situations. True you could probably train the bird to deal with most of those situations but honestly I don't want to, I want to hunt, put the bird away and hunt the next day. I don't even like keeping them over the summer. Many people find just as much enjoyment in training as they do in hunting, and for them, great, have at it. their birds are undoubtedly better trained than mine. I still suggest you make your bird to the hood, as it will make both your and their life easier. and the bottom line with passage birds is stress kills. However you choose to do it if you want to keep a passage bird for any length of time, you should really focus on keeping stress down, your bird will thank you, and live longer.
Oliver I've hood trained all 6 of my RT's and have found the sooner you start the better. Be persistent and consistant. I lost 2 leashes while hunting in brutal briars the other day and was very thankful to have a hood trained bird. You have missed your window with this bird.
Eric Hausman
That is very far from the truth. Does oliver even have a bird anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Hausman
I'm going to step it it again, I just know it...Quote:
Originally Posted by JRedig
With my years and years of inexperience to back me up, I can say that even a very hoodshy bird can be made to the hood.
I know this because I did it. I made my male redtail hoodshy, then used the time tested technique of WATER MANNING. I think I posted this on another thread, so I won't go into details here. Short story, IT WORKS !
I would refer anyone to American Falconry magazine. I don't recall which issue. It was last winter. Steve Jones wrote it and I got my 15 min. of fame by having a letter to editor published in next issue about how I used this method. Did I mention IT WORKS
I won't say if it works with all raptor species. Inexperience rears its ugly head again.
On another note. I've watched this thread and it seems (sometimes) to imply that training one of this planet's species is the same as another. I couldn't disagree more. Punish your goshawk like you would your dog and see what you get. I believe there is a reason why E-collars don't come in sizes to fit Coopers hawks. Conditioned response can be thought as nearly universal but there are differences some subtle, some not so subtle.
Frankly, I like hoods. Hoods are good.
This is one of the threads that I have been watching as I am working on hood training my female kestrel. I have a question about the value of having a hood at the time of capture. It seems to me that it would have been a lot easier to break out the hood while she was socked. I also feel that this would lessen stress down the road. I am just an apprentice, and this is the first kestrel I have dealt with, but am I right in my thinking?
old thread, but does it make, (harm the bird or no difference) if the bird is hooded in the mews all day (8 hours) while one is away at work
Fresh caught falcons spend most of their lives in the hood at least for the first 2 weeks. I would feel bad if I left my made falcons hooded in the mews. Why not leave her un hooded? Nervous hawk?
he picks at his gear. and actually just a nervous falconer. i tether him and worry he will end up entangled somehow in my absence. with the hood he stays out of trouble. but its been 3 weeks or so since i've had him and he fights me whenever i try to hood him that i worry he will associate me with the bad experience
Uwem,Quote:
Originally Posted by owo9ja
without wishing to sound negative, I think you might need someone on hand to give you a little help and guidance.
What you're doing is not good, and more problems await if you continue as you are.
Regards,
Tony.
actually that was the advice i was given by a more experienced falconer who suggests I hood and tether the bird in the training stage. he does the same with his. thing is the bird has taken a greater dislike to it as he has warmed to me. i wanted to know what the experience of others was where a bird is responding to training but hates being hooded n the mews.
It sounds as though your hawk is not made to the hood and is well on the way to being hoodshy, and whilst it's quite legitimate, even advisable to keep a hawk hooded in the early stages, the hood is not a device to be used long term to avoid restlessness in the mews or whilst weathering.Quote:
Originally Posted by owo9ja
There are exceptions to every rule, but it sounds to me as though you need some help in making your hawk to the hood first and foremost, as with every passing day things are likely to become more difficult.
I do apologise if I'm misunderstanding the situation, and wish you the best of luck in your efforts.
Tony.
I would second what Tony said. Find Raul Ramerize's video on high level hooding and get started right now. Bring your comfort level up with regards to tethering by using the Lyman method if you haven't already. Braided jesses, braided extender, braided leash.
Michael, do you know if Raul posted the video here?
not at all, you and others have been of great helpQuote:
Originally Posted by Tony James
where can i find the videoQuote:
Originally Posted by footbound
I found it on an abatement site. I think it is American Abatement or google the key words. Another great way to learn proper falcon handling is to buy House of Grouse. Watch every move Steve makes, a true master in every respect.
All birds are different. I pretty much only hood my birds before I am going to fly them. Had some Coops that gave me problems, but when my birds won't let me hood them at home, they stay at home and don't fly or eat that day. I do not hood train birds, and try to only use the hood when I am going to fly them. Last year my bird would not let me pick her up with food earlier in the season, so she stayed home and did not fly those days. Within a month I could pick her up without food. I realize this isn't the same as hooding, but the concept is, if you want to fly and eat, YOU WILL LET ME PICK YOU UP AND HOOD YOU. I have a new Passage Prairie, and I will not hood her again until she is eating on the fist, however long that might be. I would not want to have sit around hooded for no reason if I was a bird. I have never hooded any birds during the moult. Main point is I only try to hood my birds when it is a beneficial or will be beneficial to them. That gives them the choice. Hooding in the field after flying is a different story. Had some friends with Gp's that would fight the hood in the field after flying. I watched them play games dodging, bating, then trying to slam the hood on the bird. Part of this conditioning is like a game, who will win, and the birds were a bit heavy, and honestly, acting like spoiled brats. All of these birds are now hooding properly with no more games, as they were given a choice. We have found a 100% effective way that may seem harsh to some, but works every time. Get into that later if needed. First and foremost, needs to be a decent fitting hood. Second, hood SHOULD only go on when it is going to be beneficial to the bird, of course there are circumstances or exceptions at times. Third, don't let them fool us, and get away with being a spoiled brat, as birds are quite intelligent. My new bird this year gave a me a few episodes in the beginning, but then nothing for over a month. Then coincidently, out in the field when she was at her heaviest weight one day, she bated from the hood. I know they say practice makes perfect, but don't know of any birds that just want a hood put on and off their head a hundred times just because. I know what works for my friends and I, is to give the bird a choice. Stand there and take the hood like a good little bird, or don't fly and eat. The birds figure it out pretty quickly. Maybe this isn't something that others like, or are in the position to do, but it seems to be effective.