OC log

Hey Steve! Thanks for jumping in. You are hitting on one of the many frustrating points I am trying to wrap my head around in regards to OC training and these birds.

The first is the temporal component of when to CR in relation to the reward, ie., how far apart can these two be without loosening the association. I hope that trail and error will show that that time interval can be slowly extended once the association is solid. I think this will allow more extensive use of the CR as a communication tool in shaping more complex behaviors.

The second issue is spacial. How do you CR a behavior that is occuring 1500 feet above you? Or for that matter, 100 yards away? I suppose the flash CR that Karen describes coupld be utilized here. I don't know that much about kiting, but I suppose you have the reward ready to be served once the behavior is acheived. I believe it was in Karen's book where she spoke of using a bright flashlight as a CR. You mention handler gesticulation that might be just as effective. Perhaps a beeper attached to the kite with a remote trigger? I see weight issues with that. Not sure a whistle will travel that far either.

I am wondering how to do the same shaping of a behavior at a distance when you do not have the reward near to where the behavior is occuring. For instance. I have several slips where, ideally, I would like to use the bird to circle the lake, pinning the ducks to the water and then take a perch in a snag on the far end. I would take postion with the dog opposite him and move in towards the flush, basically flushing the ducks right towards him. I realize that this is a tremendously complex behavior that will take forever to shape, but hey... I dream big.

My concern is that in shaping this behavior, I will need to call the bird back to me for the reward after the CR is given (I plan to shift to the flashlight or laser pointer cr at this point). The added action of flying back to me changes the behavior, as I want the bird to stay in position until the flush, which may be immediate, or may be delayed up to fifteen - twenty minutes.

I am rambling a bit, but I don't see a way around the spacial issue without reliance on the time issue. I plan on trying to really get my bird well wed to the CR and be able to stretch out the time interval even though some have cautioned me not to. I think it is the only way I will be able to shape the complex behaviors.

Just my $.02, which when weighted for inflation is actually only $.0034 in 1970 value... ;)

Well the CR stuff has taken a back seat to hunting of late. I have taken the bird out to hunt every opportunity I have had and only turned back to training when the weather or work would not cooperate.

On a good note, we killed our first rabbit last week. It was the first time that he saw rabbits and i was impressed. Moreso because he was hunting over dogs for the first time. A friend brought his beagle pack out and was kind enough to let us fly over them. Flick has been around our pates at home with no problem but never inthe field with a dog. He was awesome and understood exactly what they were doing. In fact, as we barnched ahead of the dogs, he would frequently dart back to check on them and then back up front into position. He had four gorgeous wingovers that resulted in misses due to thick cover (I had never seen that type of flight from him before) and then connected on the last flight of the day just prior to calling it quits. Beautiful head hold. Beautiful flight. It is amazing to me what is pure instinct to them as he had never seen a rabbit before, much less seen one killed.

On a few days, I went back to the OC training to correct a few minor behaviors I was growing frustrated with. The main one was allowing me to leash him in the mews. I freeloft this bird and when at weight, he would dart to the glove but then flare off as I moved to leash him. If time were pressing, I would simply grab his jess and leash him while he was bating which certainly made the problem ten times worse (dumb).

To fix this, I started with food in the glove hidden and would call. If he would not come immediately, I would show the food the cover. This would get him on the glove. Once on the glove, I would click and tidbit. On successive flights to the glove, I would touch the jess then CR and reward building it to where i could play with the jess, clip him in, and then CR/reward. I added weighing as the last step. He did this great for two days while it was stormy.

The bad weather persisted, so I decided to go back to the hooding process with CR as well. This did not go as smoothly and in fact, undid some of the shaping I had just acheived. I would call to the fist, clip in, and bring out the hood. This negative started the bating all over again, but he would gradually allow me to get the hood on with a struggle. Once it was on, I would click and tidbit. He started looking for the tidbit in the glove when the hood was on, so I moved to tossing the tidbit after the behavior was acheived. Unfortunately, the adversive of the hooding was stronger than his desire for food, so he would not come back to the fist.

I am going to have to start over with tossed tidbits and go extremely slowly here. Once I have comfortable glove response in the mews without a wingflare, I think I will go somewhere else to work on the hood, so as to separate these behaviors.

Ab, Everything I've read suggests only a few seconds between click and treat - never seen any mention of being able to extend the time interval and be sure the reward is still associated in animal's mind with the click. However, several people stress that the animal works for the click so reward every time is not essential and variable reinforcement schedules important too.

My pointer cannot take a treat when she has had lots of scent e.g. a point or even after the flush but I still click on occasions being confident that's a more timely/direct form of 'good girl' - something I did read somewhere in book/article on clicker training gundogs.

I think the distance click is maybe not such an issue. You just have to ensure something which can be seen or heard at a distance, whether light or whistle. The early 90s Hawk Chalk Pryor/Layman articles talk about this. So rewarding being at 1500 feet is probably not difficult (if indeed that's the right thing to do) but it's the act of climbing that needs rewarding. Traditionally falconers have simply served and waited longer each time. OC would suggest that clicking first would be more effective. What I don't fully get are the references made to 'keep going' cues i.e. is that a matter of clicking once during a prolonged activity, clicking many times, or having a cue which continues throughout. This is possibly relevant to some of the things you want to shape.

Re your circling over pond requirement, in those old articles, maybe Layman or Steve Martin, talks about shaping a hawk to not land when cast off the fist and also (I think I recall but maybe I'm dreaming) shaping a redtail to climb/wait on. This seemed initially to require just the immediate click and return for food that you mention but in the confidence that the hawk 'gets it' quickly and you can move on and extend the time the activity runs. By their approach you'd start like this and build up to longer flights. My fear would be that the hawk would stay flying longer each time but stay very close anticipating the click/reward but maybe that would just be a short-term problem and later you could start to click only when the bird goes out a bit. Presumably attaching a cue to all this would be important.

When you say 'stretch the time interval' if you mean extend the time interval of the activity then surely that's fine but if you mean extend the time interval between click and reward then surely you will weaken the association between the click and reward - accepting that variable reinforcement may be important anyway.

Regards,
Steve