Great pictures Jeff. Those must be rolled jesses?
If so what do you think about them?
I started using them 2 years ago.
Harry.
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Great pictures Jeff. Those must be rolled jesses?
If so what do you think about them?
I started using them 2 years ago.
Harry.
60 Days - 772g
This morning was Apache's first 'walk about'. He spent the night indoors in the giant hood last night with no problems at all. We woke up early in order to hit the field before it got too hot. The field I chose is a 40 acre septic treatment field that is used for hay. It has trees interspersed throughout for him to test his flight abilities and I don't have to worry about poison ivy like I would in the surrounding tree line. This is also where his flight chamber is located.
I parked the truck, put on his telemetry took off the jesses, set him on the truck and waited. After about 10 minutes of playing around the truck he finally flew up to a tree and made a fool of himself trying to land. He spent about 20 minutes playing in the tree hopping branch to branch and improving his landing skills. He finally got brave enough to fly to another tree. When he left the first tree, it seemed like every songbird in the county was following him with disgust.
I sat on the tailgate of the truck listening to an audiobook, eating breakfast, and enjoying the beautiful morning. After a while, Apache decided he was tired of the little birds harassing him and began to chase them from time to time. At one point he left a tree flew up over the tree tops, circled twice and stooped the tree. My favorite moment was when he turned the tables on a scissortail. The scissortail was chasing him as he flew tree to tree. On one pass he pushed off with the scissortail right on him. He stalled just enough to let the scissortail pass him and then he tried to turn on the gas and get to him. The scissortail was gone quickly, but it was fun to see him make attempts and to be learning.
After 2 hours out playing, I figure it was time to bring him in. I blew the feeding whistle (which he's heard hundreds of times over the past month) and swung the lure. He pushed off and was on his way. For some reason he kept flaring off and wouldn't come all the way in. I thought about it and figured it might be the tall grass (I've seen that issue before with other birds). I moved to a small patch of bare ground, repeated the process and he came all the way in with no issue. I had a quail wing on the lure. I clicked and treated him on the lure a few times and then stepped him up to the fist. I carried him to the big dog kennel and he hopped in with some food. I then drove him back to his flight chamber and handfed him his remaining meal on the tire.
All in all, it was a great morning...
Here are the pics:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...p/7103b0d6.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...p/e419a42f.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...p/0d28b334.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...p/733dcdd5.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...p/3ac5659b.jpg
62 Days
Not a lot of training this weekend, we had family in. I was able to bring Apache in tonight while we had 14 peoe over. He sat on the fist silent with no bates while people touched him and walked all around. I couldn't have been more pleased with his attitude.
Hoping for a 'walk about' in the morning...
Good detailed read Jeff,
Any chance of a video clip of the clicker training ?
Yours Jim.
63 days...810g
Apache appears to be hard penned at this point. I am now moving into the next phase of training with him. The goal is walk abouts in the morning and training sessions in the evening.
My first order of business is to get him hungry by increasing his activity level and fitness. He now works for every tidbit he gets. I am starting with rewarding bating so I can put it on cue. I fully expect each session to get more intense as he gets hungrier and it won't surprise me to see aggression. From there we will transition to Yo-yo's and restrained pursuits.
On a side note...I think it is a matter of time until Apache tips his deck feathers. He spends all day sitting in his water bowl leaning back on his tail. The feathers are constantly being bent as he leans on them.
65 days
Had a great training session this evening with Apache. I was able to do restrained pursuits and reward bating until his wings were drooping. He understands RP's, but hasn't fully grasped the controlled bate yet.
Jeff,
Home Depot carries a black plastic mixing pan for cement in two sizes. The small one fits my gos well and it is only $5.35. Would that size reduce the pressure on the train?
Harry.
I have found that the bottom 6 inches cut out of an old plastic 55 gallon barrel makes an excellent bath pan. Its nice and deep to make bathing easy, and the HDPE plastic that its made from is super easy to scrub clean. This last point is important with breeding chamber birds where the bath pan may need to go several weeks between cleanings to avoid disturbing the birds. Its also wide and deep enough to be very easy on the tail feathers of a goshawk.Quote:
Originally Posted by hcmcelroy
Geoff, I have I am still using after twenty years , they are great.
Now a couple of useful hints:
Only use the solid end for water pans, use the end with the bung for nesting bowls for your breeders.
Pick up some old garden hose that someone tossed out. Split it lengthwise, and "liquid nails" it to the edge of the pan. It will save possible foot issues when they stand on the edge.
Now then the center of the barrel.... Cut them in 10-12" widths. Take them and bury them anywhere you have root producing plants... Place them around the plant. It will stop them from becoming invasive and over taking you garden. Works great on any herb/flower/ivy etc that propagates through root travel.
Thats a great tip. Pitty that I just tossed some of those middle bits out.Quote:
Originally Posted by goshawks00
Jeoff & Barry,
Great idea you could bath an eagle...
Harry.
67 days - 785g
Apache had a great walk about this morning (best yet). He was up for about an hour and a half. He chased small birds several times and is getting much stronger and maneuverable. My favorite moment was watching him chase a squirrel that tried to make a break for it to the tree line. He hit the squirrel twice before it got to a tree and raced above him. I tossed a Texas Pioneer pigeon for him and he played with it for 20 minutes. He would catch it, release it, chase it on foot until it flushed, recatch it, and repeat. I finally picked the exhausted pigeon up and called an exhausted goshawk down to the lure. He bated a couple times before I could get him to the truck. This may be his last walk about for that reason. I will start hood training him in a couple weeks. Until then I don't want any negative association at the end of the walk about. We'll keep working toward putting bating on cue and doing rp's.
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...p/938e7371.jpg
Thanks for the water pan suggestions! Those are great ideas. I had been setting his bath pan on bricks to elevate it, but I purchased a mortar mixing tub from Lowes yesterday that should help.
This has been a great learning experience so far...
Jeff,
Keep the updates rolling. Most interesting!!!
I'm especially interested in how you hood train.
My boy was 59 yesterday and beginning to withdraw so I'm feeding a bit less in the last meal of the day. He appears hungry this morning so I'll toss a sparrow in the mew again and see how he is going.
Harry.
Harry, is he in the mew full time now or still in the house with you?Quote:
Originally Posted by hcmcelroy
Lee,
Quixote is in the mew/flight until the temp begins to cook then in these two rooms. I take him back out at about 6:30. All he knows is play, play, play.
Harry.
69 days
Apache is progressing in his training. He is beginning to understand that I am rewarding him for bating, but I don't have it on cue yet. Restrained pursuits have been REALLY useful thus far. I am been able to make him hungry by increasing the exercise instead of decreasing the food at this point.
The biggest lifesaver to this point has been the fact that he uses plucking as a way to cue me to feed him. On the days when I'm in a hurry and need to feed him quickly, I can walk in and toss down a quail wing. I hold the quail in plain sight in my hand. He grabs the wing and plucks, I then CR and hand him a piece of the quail in my hand. I repeat this for 8 or so rewards and then I can jackpot him with the whole quail. If I have time, I will walk out and wait for him to pluck the quail. I CR and then walk back in cut off a piece and hand it to him. I then just leave it with him. He eats what he wants and caches the rest in his tire. I can show up later and pick up the quail out of the tire if I want him to be hungrier at the next feeding. It takes me about 10 minutes to feed him like this and has been a lifesaver at maintaing the right attitude when I'm in a hurry.
Most of the time he is working for meal doing RP's and bates.
That weight sure seems immense for a tiercel Gos. I could see if it was the dead of below zero winter, but its obviously not. I know guys that have flown females in that weight range, particularly right at the beginning of the season like this when its hot.
He may be big or he could just be fat at this point. Note that he is not out hawking yet. He responds to the lure and I'm comfortable with doing walk abouts, but I don't feel comfortable putting him in a situation where I'd need instantaneous lure response yet (i.e. flying him on crows, grackles, and starlings in town).
I am using his hunger motivation to get training sessions going. He can eat as much as he wants, he just has to work for it. When he stops working, the food stops (unless I'm in a hurry and leave a quail as described previously). So at this point he is somewhat self regulating his own weight. The increase in exercise has definitely had an effect on his hunger.
The first couple of days it was a little difficult to get the ball rolling. He had a couple meals where he only got 1 or 2 tidbits because he wasn't interested. After that, he has caught on and this morning he ate most of a skinned quail cut up into about 35 or so tidbits as he did restrained pursuits. My guess is he will eat 25 or so tidbits tonight. I am not doing any form of weight control at this point. I'm just trying to work his tail off to get him into shape, increase his hunger level so he will work more, and keep his head screwed on straight.
It will be interesting to see what weight he flies at.
The weight doesn't seem that unusual to me. I had 2 tiercels in 2009 that were on tame hack catching birds at around 800 grams. Not bragging I just think it's a result of different methods and maybe genes. One of them caught it's first wild bird at 840g and the other just under 800. I think Jeff's Apache bird may actually be bigger than either of those Wisconsin birds but they were on tame hack 10 hours a day and were witnessed doing tail chases on dove above the forest canopy and other serious work outs. Their weights dropped considerably around this time without dieting. I think the robust weight Jeff is flying this bird at is possibly due to great genetics from Barry and a different training philosophy with imprints. Sound's like your bird is a real peach Jeff. You have so much to look forward to with him. I'm very envious.
Just curious. Can you have your big stand on a straight ruler and measure the feet for talon tip to talon tip? That would mean something to me about size. Very curious.
By the way. What's a texas pioneer pigeon?
Just curious. Can you have your big stand on a straight ruler and measure the feet for talon tip to talon tip? That would mean something to me about size. Very curious.
Yep to that, sometimes it's tough to get real feed back on birds produced.
I think it's also safe to say weight = a combination of genetics and falconer ability.
They were bred for squab production,meat birdsQuote:
Originally Posted by allredone
Genetics + falconer opportunity too. There are probably lots of good falconers who fly at lower weights and fitness during this stage because of practical life style constraints. I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to hack my birds in habitat very close to what real goshawk nest woods look like with abundant things to chase and distant neighbors. I wasn't doing anything with them while out except maybe check n them at lunch. All that time on the wing I think made them muscle up and they didn't loose much fat either because I'd had never cut rations. Can't say what happened after because I gave both birds away after they each caught their first field birds off the fist. The falconer who had the most success was more traditional and cut weight and caught ducks. Hard to argue with success. I was just imprinting the tiercels for experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by goshawks00
I should add that the other bird died of mysterious illness so when I say the bird that had the most success I mean the bird that lived. Ha!...
71 days - 778g
Apache continues to progress. I am having to work hard to maintain the parent view with him as he reaches the age of dispersal. Tonight he was talking more than I have ever heard him. He was hungry although his weight was the same as our morning workout. He is not screaming by any means, he is just vocalizing in his excitement. I expect more vocalizing as he learns to deal with hunger and the for it to decrease as he shifts into hunting.
Tonight we did RP's and controlled bates until he was exhausted. We did some tidbit hunts with the dog out. We had a big group of camp staff over tonight and he sat on this fist without a care in the world while they all oohed and awed over him. Have I mentioned that I love this bird so far:)
Once my new hood arrives, we will begin hood training. I'll detail that procedure as it progresses...
Here are some pics:
A hot and tired gos
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...p/3df57841.jpg
Still friends
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...p/d1bdde8a.jpg
Tidbit hunts in the yard
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...p/3e86ab7a.jpg
A Texas Pioneer Pigeon is a pigeon bred for meat production. They are about 3 times bigger than a homer. They look like chickens they are so big. They make great training birds because they don't fly long distances. They will fly about 30-40yds and then bail into cover instead of trying to sky out like a homer. They will also trap back into the loft after use.Quote:
Originally Posted by allredone
Wow cool. Never heard of such a bird. Thanks.
Do you want talon tip to talon tip or from the tip of the toe to tip of toe? I am assuming middle toe to halux...Quote:
Originally Posted by goshawks00
Right, longest measurement you can get. Halux to middle toe. Some folks measure the feet from the quick of the talon at the fleshy part saying that's more accurate because talons wear down or overgrow. I don't think that changes the foot size much unless it's dramatic though because the talons curve at a downward angle.
The other thing interesting about texas pioneers is that they are auto sexing--you can tell the sex of the squabs as soon as they hatch.Quote:
Originally Posted by allredone
would love to find some of those Texan pigeons up here...would be helpful with my female imprint gos.
What's your source for them? Where can I buy them? Did Tex A&M invent these?Quote:
Originally Posted by EAZFalconer
I picked mine up off of Craigslist. I'm sure you could google them and find a breeder.
Google "Texan Pioneer pigeon" here is the national club for them and that will help you find a breeder:Quote:
Originally Posted by allredone
http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/texanpioneer/
74 days - 780g
Things are about the same with Apache. I had an equipment malfunction today that resulted in me putting temporary gear on him. I was using bullet jesses and he broke one. I've had it happen before when they get older. I'll order some new ones.
I made a post perch for him and he has taken to it with no issue. I measured his foot span and best I can tell is he has 4 1/2 inch span from talon tip to talon tip.
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...p/882cca61.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...p/e31d2e20.jpg
:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by rocgwp
Jeff it you didn't know already that is truly a remarkable size. At least compared to the 3 Wisconsin males I've had and others I've seen.
Nice work Paul and Barry!...
My largest male Wisconsin goshawk had feet that were 4 3/8" and he had a, "feather volume" physical size that made him "look" just as big as my female who had feet that were only 4 5/8". That size spread is typical for Wisconsin birds. Huge males and small to average females. At many nests its hard to tell the difference between the male and female parent birds. Sometimes it's just the behavior of the agresive female and the fact that the male leaves when she gets really fired up that makes it obvious. Some Wisconsin females are quite large feet 5 1/4" and fly above 1000 but not many.
So this bird just looks really nice. Maybe the same or bigger than that one male I had.
If others have seem lots of males that have feet this large and may fly near 27 ounces please chime in here. I'm under the impression that is special and I'd like to hear about it if I am wrong.
Nice bird! Thanks for taking the time to measure!
Jeff,
I've never used the bullet jesses, but they always looked pretty stout to me... How have the ones you have used broken? Did they both fail the same way?
Over a period of time the chord that runs in the interior of the jess rots or becomes weaker. I've never had 2 fail at the same time, but I guess it's possible. The ones I've had fail, failed in the same way. Another local falconer has had the same experience.
I really like them though because of the stiffness. I've never had an issue with a bird getting tangled like I have with leather or braided jesses. They are also really quick to change out.