Apache - 2011 Imprint Male Goshawk

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Originally Posted by rocgwp

92 days - 795g

What a fun morning!!! I took Apache on a "walk about" and it turned into a squirrel hunt. I got to see a lot of things come together today. I had Apache on the fist and was walking with him unrestrained. I saw a grey squirrel feeding on the ground. I was able to walk around a building and get within 10 yds of the squirrel. As I rounded the corner I made my flushing noise and Apache slicked down anticipating something being tossed. He saw the squirrel and the squirrel bolted. He was after it! The squirrel made it to a tree and Apache pitched up and landed near the top of a pine (goshawks can go vertical like nothing I've ever seen). I was able to reflush the squirrel and he played catch and release with it. He caught and released it 3 times within 100yds. After that, we chased 8 more squirrels. He caught and released atleast 2 more, it was hard to see all the chases with the leaves on. He didn't have a great lure response since he was at such a high weight, so I waited for him to land low enough for me to step him up to the fist. He was exhausted! I hooded him and we walked about a half mile back to the mew. Once there I CRed and removed the hood. I tossed a quail for him and instead he did an RP to the water. He drank, cooled off, and then I hand fed him his meal.

I'll let him play and mirror squirrels until he decides he wants to catch one. I saw better chases with him today, than I saw with a cast of harrises all last year. A Goshawk's speed and maneuverability in the woods is incredible.

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Dejavu Jeff. That sounds so familiar. All that play time catching squirrels will pay off. He is learning where the business end is and how to grab them from behind the neck and head. Those flits are great to watch aren't they?

This is about the time where traditional thought might tell you to cut weight to force him into holding onto one. Your way is so much better. I've seen it myself. Many goshawkers have. Without the desperation of a weight reduction making him do things that are dangerous he will learn to never get more than a scratch and be deadly on squirrels. My small Wisconsin female had feet that were really no bigger than Apache's and she killed them before I could get to her. Generally me and the dog would run along with her on her violent tears through the tree tops and she would rake one off and glide to the ground, sometimes 50-80 yards away. Surprisingly squirrels pass out in seconds when the gos closes their wind pipe with the talon tips. It was either that or shock.

I'm excited for you. I love the way a gos hits the pursuit game after tree squirrels. It's like someone tied a balloon to it's tail. A heat seeking missile.

Keep us posted.

By the way... No bells? That's awesome. Better to have lighter feet and be quicker footing.

If you want a tail bell I've got a good design for a break away bell clip that will pop out without pulling a feather. I always tied hunter orange flash tape to it so I could find it on the forest floor but Thankfully I never had to.

By the way possibly the coolest part of your post from today was the RPs to water instead of food.

People should really take a look at what you are doing. Seems like many austringers can't get the bird to come to the lure even without weight reduction. Let alone out in the dynamic flights you saw today. And to top it off he comes home and proves to you that hes not motivated by food alone.

Most of us fly birds so lean that food becomes the ONLY thing that matters to them. And that's because it works even if you don't have a clue what your raptor really is. Survival is a universal language. But What you are doing is in my opinion MUCH more powerful.

And more RELAXING. And more FUN. Sounds like your bird is quiet, well adjusted and not lean.

"FAT and HAPPY". Way to be.

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Originally Posted by allredone

By the way possibly the coolest part of your post from today was the RPs to water instead of food.

People should really take a look at what you are doing. Seems like many austringers can't get the bird to come to the lure even without weight reduction. Let alone out in the dynamic flights you saw today. And to top it off he comes home and proves to you that hes not motivated by food alone.

Most of us fly birds so lean that food becomes the ONLY thing that matters to them. And that's because it works even if you don't have a clue what your raptor really is. Survival is a universal language. But What you are doing is in my opinion MUCH more powerful.

And more RELAXING. And more FUN. Sounds like your bird is quiet, well adjusted and not lean.

"FAT and HAPPY". Way to be.

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I agree - this is great stuff.

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Originally Posted by allredone

If you want a tail bell I've got a good design for a break away bell clip that will pop out without pulling a feather.

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Could you post some pics of it?

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Originally Posted by Squirrelhawkin

Could you post some pics of it?

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Yes absolutely. I'll put it in a separate post in Shortwings and post the link here in a few. It's very simple and requires no special tools. Just things you already have.

Had another good morning of squirrel chasing. We chased a lot of squirrels, but I couldn't see all the action due to the leaves on the trees. I know he put his feet on several. I am using a temporary bell on his anklet until I get a tail mount on. Without the bell, I would have been lost. We sure could use a break from the heat. 106 today, but Apache is taking it well.

I am going to work on his lure response some and see if I can establish some more field control with him.

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Originally Posted by rocgwp

Had another good morning of squirrel chasing. We chased a lot of squirrels, but I couldn't see all the action due to the leaves on the trees. I know he put his feet on several. I am using a temporary bell on his anklet until I get a tail mount on. Without the bell, I would have been lost. We sure could use a break from the heat. 106 today, but Apache is taking it well.

I am going to work on his lure response some and see if I can establish some more field control with him.

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What do you use for a lure?

I hawked squirrels hard and I used a cotton tail or jack lure from Northwoods Limited. It's made from wallaby fur and is super durable. The cool part is that I just cut the meat tie off of it and the fur was a plucking reward. I never put food on my fur covered lure after the first introduction. After that my imprints wanted it because it was fun to catch and after some plucking I would toss tidbits out for them and transfer off.

I would never let the hawk catch the lure if it set its wings and was just gliding in. I would pull it in a circle around me and the hawk would have to fly at a stall in a slow circle to catch up to it in the air. Then I wouldn't let it drop to the ground until the hawk walked up the lures back and grabbed it near the, "head". But the moment it struck the head end I would drop it like a stone instantly and let them settle down catch their breath and pluck for a while. Then transfer off.

They seemed to get a tremendous amount of satisfaction from this. I seriously never garnished the lure and I would get intense lure recall response. I think goshawks like to work for a living and they are simply not as impressed by the drop and flop lure presentation of tossing the lure out on the ground. They love motion. I got great recall response with my tiercels above 800 grams in summer heat.

I think sibling rivalry may have had something to do with it too.

Contrary to popular rules i would frequently toy with my hawk and flash the lure to recall to the fist and then hide the lure in the back pocket of my game bag and flush a wild bird. It was a, "trick", in the sense that I did not give them the lure when I showed it to them. But this, "betrayal", only increased my birds lure response. It did not convince them that I was just going to trick them and might as well not come when called. Instead they knew that the lure may or may not be catchable but a 110% effort would be rewarded in some kind of way. It just wasn't predictable.

Anyhow. I don't claim to have figured something out but I stumbled into something that worked really well for my imprints with great field control. The only time I had a hard time getting my bird down was the first time I tried to call her down in tall grass close to dark.

Just a thought. One of my sponsors was not impressed years ago when I bought the fur covered lure from Northwoods. He liked all the other gear that I made myself and said the rabbit lure looked like something a, "Mastercard Falconer", would buy. But man that thing turned out to be one of my favorite tools. So durable too. Even with all that plucking there was never much of a bare spot on it and the shape and weight was just perfect for a hard strike from a goshawk and the bird could really get a grip and hold on to the thing.

They loved that lure but were never too possessive of it.

Just some thoughts. I don't know what others are doing. I hear all accipiters generally love their lures.

One friend lost his and kind of famously used a shoe swung by the lace. Too funny. :)

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Originally Posted by kitana

That's exactly what one wants to avoid with using the clicker. You want the hawk to associate the food with himself, with behaviors he can do, not with the falconer. I'm sure it works great with a clicker-savvy falconer, as it works with every other species out there. Horse for example are well-known to become troublesome and bite if given treats. Use the clicker though, and they stop these behaviors as soon as they understand what to do to receive the food beside bullying the trainer.

I'm very interested in food delivery mechanics. We all know that hand-feeding a hawk results in being footed. I know about high-level tidbiting and it does work, but then you have to replace the clicker by a whistle or a noise made by the mouth for the mechanics become too complex. I have friends who clicker train free-lofted raptors in zoos using a stick to deliver the food and a whistle as a clicker, it works great but I still think it's a hassle. It would be great not having to worry about those feet! lol

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Yes those are some big feet on that young bird, very nice pick, I am sure he will do well.

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Originally Posted by Squirrelhawkin

Could you post some pics of it?

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Nick. Here is the link to the Break-Away tail bell post:

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?p=202810#post202810

Haven't updated on Apache in a while so here goes. 2 big events have happened in the past 2 weeks...

Event 1:
While I was at work one afternoon, Apache was perched out in the covered weathering yard. A sudden strong storm blew in a ripped the top off of the weathering area. My wife was home and came to Apache's rescue. The soft sunscreen top came down on top of him. My wife pulled the screen off him, but not before he trashed his tail frus) I was concerned about him mentally, but all seems to be okay. If anyone wants to send some goshawk feathers my way, I've got some imping to do. Otherwise, he'll be hunting with a broken rudder.

Event 2:
I had an extended business trip I had to go on. I was concerned that while I was gone, he would regress and potentially become aggressive since another falconer would be tossing him food without playing games. When I got back, there was no sign of aggression. He had pulled his jesses out and didn't want to come to the glove. I didn't want to risk a big negative event by putting jesses in and then him bating and potentially freaking out, so I only fed him small tidbits that he would step or hop to the fist for. He was loosing interest quickly, so I suspected that he was just really fat. After 2 days of that I was able to put jesses in and weigh him without any negatives. He weighed 815g (fat as I suspected). He is now perched out at my house settling back into his routine again. Once he gets serious again, so will I. We will start hitting the woods regularly.

I will check my supply when I get home, but I am pretty sure I have a full set of male tail feathers.

I've got all but the center decks if that's any help. They are adult feathers. Average/biggish size.

I have a full set immy male NA Gos tail feathers if you need them.

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Originally Posted by rocgwp

While I was at work one afternoon, Apache was perched out in the covered weathering yard. A sudden strong storm blew in a ripped the top off of the weathering area. My wife was home and came to Apache's rescue. The soft sunscreen top came down on top of him. My wife pulled the screen off him, but not before he trashed his tail frus) I was concerned about him mentally, but all seems to be okay. If anyone wants to send some goshawk feathers my way, I've got some imping to do. Otherwise, he'll be hunting with a broken rudder.

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Sounds like you already have some offers, but for future reference (yours, as well as others) Harris' hawk tail feathers match goshawk tail feathers exactly. The benifit to using Harris' feathers is that they are more durable because they bend rather than break. The disadvantage, apart from looking out of place, is that they do not have the same flight characteristics because they are not as stiff as goshawk feathers (which is why they bend rather than break).

It took a little bit to get Apache back to where we were, but I think he is there again. I've been letting him pluck a wing on the fist (CRing for the pluck) and handing tidbits for his reward. I occasionally throw in a tossed tidbit with an RP.

Tonight he was in the 790g range. I had intentions of going hawking, but the 100 degree weather changed those plans. Instead I carried him on the fist, made the flushing cue, tossed his empty lure and let him do an RP to it. I then tossed tidbits for him to transfer to and hopped him back to the fist. We did this several times. He had instant response on chasing the lure. He is a little reluctant to hop back to the fist, but that is fading fast. With some cooler weather, we are ready to hit the woods.

Temps dropped below 90 this evening so I couldn't resist getting in the woods. Apache chased 3 squirrels and caught (and released 1). He is still playing right now. A week or so of some serious flying and my guess is he will seal the deal.

I think I missed something Jeff... No weight control at all?

I am using loose weight control. I didn't weigh him tonight. He wanted to go fly, so we went. My guess is he was in the upper 780's based on what he weighed after I fed him. If his attitude is right, we hunt. If not, we don't.

Okay, but what about the dreaded food reduction that leads imprints to scream? It's THE reason I stale on imprinting an accipiter, the fear to turn it into a screaming monster at the first moment its weight will go down... That's what I meant by weight control.

Apache definitely doesn't scream. At times he talks though. He didn't start talking until I got back from my trip and had been tossed food to for a week. My experience is that as you establish the idea that they are working for their food, the quieter they get. Hunting, RP's, etc...encourage quietness. Giving them free handouts (tossing them food) encourages noise. They might get vocal when you drop their weight initially, but most accipiters quiet down as you establish their work ethic and they are hunting hard.

It's very cool Jeff. I had all this theoretical stuff in my head about clicker training an imprint from the start, and doing the most to avoid screams and agression, I believe it could be done but it's not until you see that happen in real life that you know it can truly work.

Way to go!! Can't wait to see how good a hunting hawk he will become. You are doing a very excellent job.

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Originally Posted by kitana

It's very cool Jeff. I had all this theoretical stuff in my head about clicker training an imprint from the start, and doing the most to avoid screams and agression, I believe it could be done but it's not until you see that happen in real life that you know it can truly work.

Way to go!! Can't wait to see how good a hunting hawk he will become. You are doing a very excellent job.

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Audrey,

There are a several people around who have pulled off OC raised imprints accipiters that are largely silent. Whats even more amazing about them is they are even tamer and more social than most imprints.

If they can do it, you can too!

Yeah Geoff, you told me that in the past and I believe you, but when you pay 2500$ for a Cooper or a Gos, imprint it and it goes bad, and can't release it to the wild, it's stressful... I'll do it, and it won't be in a very long time, but for now I'm like a sponge absorbing the experiences of other in the hope that it will improve my own skills when the time comes... And Jeff is doing precisely what I intended to do so it's highly interesting to read about the results!! Until I can travel to the West coast and meet you guys and chat with you and see the results, I gotta read as much as I can! lol

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Originally Posted by rocgwp

Apache definitely doesn't scream. At times he talks though. He didn't start talking until I got back from my trip and had been tossed food to for a week. My experience is that as you establish the idea that they are working for their food, the quieter they get. Hunting, RP's, etc...encourage quietness. Giving them free handouts (tossing them food) encourages noise. They might get vocal when you drop their weight initially, but most accipiters quiet down as you establish their work ethic and they are hunting hard.

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Work Ethic! Perfect. Well said. It seems like all creatures are happier when they are working for a living. :)

Some nights almost everything goes right...Apache chased 10 squirrels in an hour and a half. Almost every vine I yanked had a squirrel in it tonight. It was 94 degrees and he was 795g. He caught and released most of them. It was FUN!!!

I really enjoy reading this thread, and am going to try and incorporate what I can to shape my new charges with this great information.

With the heat issue I have had good luck misting hawks feet and and even under wings, and using the stream on the mister straight into their mouths and on food given, to hydrate them. Thanks again for sharing.

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Originally Posted by bobpayne

I really enjoy reading this thread, and am going to try and incorporate what I can to shape my new charges with this great information.

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Hold the phone.... arent you a McDermott follower? His notions are diametrically opposed to the shaping that Jeff used. :D

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Originally Posted by goshawkr

Hold the phone.... arent you a McDermott follower? His notions are diametrically opposed to the shaping that Jeff used. :D

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Am not surprised you would ask the question Geoff, when stuff about McE D is mentioned you always question the mans format of imprinting.

Back in the day b4 the book was written, I met Mike who was hosting a field meet in St Louis. Having only read of the gos and never witnessed one hunt I followed him until it was his time to hunt his hawk, an imprint tercel. First off his drive to impower his hawk be sucessful was unequal with anyone else at the meet. He had scouted more hunting spots and knew where there were rabbits and quail setups that made it easier to catch, and every setup included wind direction, food and water sources, loafing areas, escape routes and cover. He and his hawk caught a limit of rabbits while chasing and getting a limit of quail. This all took place in a little over and hour.

You better believe I latched on to any chance to hunt with him. The hawk was nearly flawless, I could have done no better with my hunting dog and 101. The hawk was focused on the hunt while a large group and dogs worked cover, the hawk traded off of each of the eight kilsl without a hitch. Over the years I watched coops, shins and gos trained using Mikes approch and the hawks were outstanding.

Mikes first book has shortcomings to be sure, and Mike would be the first to tell you if something isn't working the way you want with the imprint, you need to rethink it and change the way you are doing things. Any book covers only so much of what ever information is available at the time of print. The second edition is much updated but as of today it may still be called outdated information in some regards. As a starting place for people getting into falconry and wanting to hunt a shortwing I would suggest you purchase his second book.

Sorry about getting off course with the McE D stuff but to answer your question, at this time in my life I travel my own path, with a quest for knowledge of others successes, using reflections of falconry experiences in my past. I train my new hunting companions for the future. I'm sure much the same as you do, We've just been down different roads though I'm sure we have some days, crossed paths.;)

Nice post Bob.

I understand why McDermott advocates never to let the hawk see the falconer bring food. That in itself is not a problem: the problem is that hawk are always making mental associations between their own behavior and the arrival of food, and many falconers are not observant enough to see what behaviors they are reinforcing when they bring the food. If they bring food to a nervous, jumpy or agressive bird, the bird will act nervous, jumpy or agressive again because he thinks THAT is what brings the food. Also, a hawk that can never make any associations cannot find a way to control the arrival of food, and that in itself can become highly frustrating. Fustration is the #1 enemy when training with positive reinforcement, as if it goes over the edge the frustrated animal will attack to vent. So it's possible both to reinforce behaviors leading to an attack, and not to reinforce anything so the hawks doesn't have a clue and become frustrated and attacks. Hiding the food from the animal is a solution, but animals are wiser than that: they will take any cue they can and make awkward associations at times, so it is very very easy to screw everything up even by never giving the food directly to the hawk...

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Originally Posted by bobpayne

Sorry about getting off course with the McE D stuff but to answer your question, at this time in my life I travel my own path, with a quest for knowledge of others successes, using reflections of falconry experiences in my past. I train my new hunting companions for the future. I'm sure much the same as you do, We've just been down different roads though I'm sure we have some days, crossed paths

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Hi Bob.

I was teasing.

All the best...

Apache has had lots of catch and release lately. He was 799g tonight and chased game for 2.5 hours. Temps are still in the mid 90's. Tonight he chased crows, squirrels, and dove.

I am going to reduce his weight a little to start encouraging him to hold on. He's had plenty of practice catching and I'd really like to get him killing before our new baby shows up in 2 weeks. He's still my favorite bird I've flown thus far...

Sounds like he's in great shape, and has the "skills"....How old is he now?
Best of luck and keep us posted...Oh, done any new OC stuff with him?

Did the hood training ever progress?

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Originally Posted by kitana

the problem is that hawk is always making mental associations between their own behavior and the arrival of food, and many falconers are not observant enough to see what behaviors they are reinforcing when they bring the food. If they bring food to a nervous, jumpy or agressive bird, the bird will act nervous, jumpy or agressive again because he thinks THAT is what brings the food.

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Im not sure its that simple. Ever have a calm imprint cooper just suddenly grab your face? They can be calm and you think your doing everything right and they may accept it all till one day they break. Possession and Territory issues play a large role and they dont have to be jumpy or aggressive before they lash out.

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Originally Posted by rocgwp

Apache has had lots of catch and release lately. He was 799g tonight and chased game for 2.5 hours. Temps are still in the mid 90's. Tonight he chased crows, squirrels, and dove.

I am going to reduce his weight a little to start encouraging him to hold on. He's had plenty of practice catching and I'd really like to get him killing before our new baby shows up in 2 weeks. He's still my favorite bird I've flown thus far...

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Jeff, I must say I am most impressed at how all this OC stuff works and what you have done. It really makes made me realize there is more than one way to imprint an accipiter. Do you think it was more work than using the recipe with your coopers?

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Originally Posted by BestBeagler

Im not sure its that simple. Ever have a calm imprint cooper just suddenly grab your face? They can be calm and you think your doing everything right and they may accept it all till one day they break. Possession and Territory issues play a large role and they dont have to be jumpy or aggressive before they lash out.

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I agree that it isn't as simple as just rewarding calm behaviors, but the bird does give signals of aggression before they lash out at your face. The rewards have to be for behaviors that have an attitude of calmness or whatever you desire. For example...If the bird is giving the one-eyed-over-the-shoulder look, it may be standing calmly, but it is possible you could be rewarding an aggressive attitude.

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Originally Posted by BestBeagler

Jeff, I must say I am most impressed at how all this OC stuff works and what you have done. It really makes made me realize there is more than one way to imprint an accipiter. Do you think it was more work than using the recipe with your coopers?

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I think it has been about the same amount of work just at different times. Raising the McDermott method was a pain in the rear up until he was flying and got into a routine. All of the baggies, trying to not have a food association, etc...was a lot of work and mental stress. Raising Apache was really easy up until he was flying. It was a lot more relaxed and I enjoyed it a whole lot more. The work with Apache has come in the form of playing games and shaping the behaviors I wanted once he was flying. I have delayed killing to let him develop mentally and get more practice flying, chasing, and catching safely. With Apache it is a definite relationship and he is more social and maintaining the relationship takes work.

All in all, I like this method best because of the tools it gives me to solve problems. I feel like if something comes up I have multiple ways to confront it and work through it. Previously, I felt the only option I really had was to lower the weight (which I can still do if I need to).

Both methods work great and produce great birds. It's always fun to experiment and try new things...

After talking with Layman, I figured this was an important update and shows how important it is that we learn to read our birds and always be on the proactive side of training. Over the past couple weeks I have been working hard to maintain Apache viewing me as a parent (Him looking at me with both eyes, taking tidbits gently from my fingers, body posture, etc...) I have left his weight high so that he would chase and experiment catching, but not feel like he "had" to catch it. It has worked great and most of his response and return has centered around me being the parent and his dependence/relationship on me. Last night he showed me something suddle and a little different than what I have previously seen.

The normal routine is i call him in to the lure. He grabs it and mantles at first. Once he plucks, I CR and toss a tidbit. After a couple tidbits his behavior switches and he calms completely down and slicks down. I don't make in on the lure. I let him pluck and I toss tidbits until he is finished plucking. He then hops to the fist for the rest of his meal which I either hand feed of have on the glove. During that time I work hooding or something else...

Last night he came in to the lure and acted normal. He plucked and I tossed tidbits. As he went for the tidbits, he walked sideways keeping an eye on me and looking a little uneasy. I knelt down beside him to offer the fist and he completely stepped off the lure and took a couple steps away. When I offered the glove again he was very reluctant in coming toward me. He eventually hopped up, but was reluctant in taking tidbits from my hand. You could see that he wanted the food, but was unsure in taking it from me. This is in complete contrast to what he has done every day before. It was suddle. He still plucked and ate and hopped to the fist, it just was with a little reluctance for the first time.

Layman explained that this was potentially the beginning signs of dispersal behavior in him. I have been able to maintain the parent role up to this point, but his instincts are now beginning to tell him to disperse. Things could go south pretty quickly if I don't change to match his behavior. I will now increase his exercise to get him hungrier as I take his weight down pretty quickly. This weight drop will increase his emotionally intensity, so I will have to watch out for things like aggression. I will be playing lots of games with him (RP's, jump ups, etc...) in conjunction with hunting. I would expect the squirrels to start dieing soon :D It appears this is the next stage in defining our relationship...

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Originally Posted by BestBeagler

Im not sure its that simple. Ever have a calm imprint cooper just suddenly grab your face? They can be calm and you think your doing everything right and they may accept it all till one day they break.

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Hi Isaac

Its an absolute myth that animals suddenly "lash out", even wild animals. They dont react unprovoked. They dont become provoked without giving warning. That absolutely never ever happens.

Now, what does commonly happen is for animal handlers to miss the warnings either because they thought they can work past them without incident (like Roy did when his tiger attacked him) or because they were oblivious to the warnings because the handler was ingnorant of their significance and/or the warnings were too subtle to be seen..

I think a careful observer would have noticed something in that coopers hawk you mentioned. A little sideways stare....a slightly haunched over posture..... tightened feathers, most like all the above, even if subtly.

I have been attacked by many animals that I have handled, and only one surprised me. That was a dog whose body language I completely misread, and now I have small scar on my nose to remind me that even one who can read dog's minds can get it wrong once in a while. :D

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Originally Posted by BestBeagler

Possession and Territory issues play a large role and they dont have to be jumpy or aggressive before they lash out.

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I think one of the biggest "mistakes" in the recipie is to point to possession/territory issues too frequently. I think its more acurate to think of these problems as simple "Rival" behavior. Its a fine point, and subtle difference, but it gets one thinking about possible remedies better.