remote signalling device

[barbedraptor]

Can anyone make a remote signalling device for use on a backpack? I invision a less than 10gm backpack mounted remote beeper with a line of sight range of 1500 ft. I could press a button to reward distant good behavior. In noisy environments it would be better than a whistle. Also it would be great for teaching a falcon to wait on. Jim Fustos

[rkumetz]

Can anyone make a remote signalling device for use on a backpack? I invision a less than 10gm backpack mounted remote beeper with a line of sight range of 1500 ft. I could press a button to reward distant good behavior. In noisy environments it would be better than a whistle. Also it would be great for teaching a falcon to wait on. Jim Fustos

So you are saying the device would receive a signal from a hand held transmitter and beep like a remote clicker?

How loud would it need to be?

How long would the battery need to last?

Cost?

If you like you can send me an email.
Ron

[goshawkr]

Can anyone make a remote signalling device for use on a backpack? I invision a less than 10gm backpack mounted remote beeper with a line of sight range of 1500 ft. I could press a button to reward distant good behavior. In noisy environments it would be better than a whistle. Also it would be great for teaching a falcon to wait on. Jim Fustos

Hi Jim.

I have been wanting a device like that for many years. I had thought about developing/marketing it myself, but then decided the best solution as to pitch it to an electronics company.

At the Vernal NAFA meet I sat down with Bob Bagley and one of the head electronic whizzes at Marshall and pitched the idea to them. Technically, its stupid simple for them to make. Bob seemed to agree that it was a good idea.

However, I left with the impression that they were not going to pursue it.

Pity.

I used to have a shock collar that had a "good dog" and a "bad dog" audible tone in addition to the shock corrections. That was the single best investment I have ever made, ever. I used correction less than 5 times with that collar on the dog I bought it for. Between the two tones, I could guide that dog to do ANYTHING. It was like having a remote control steering wheel mounted to that dogs brain. The pity was it was a collar designed for work in a back yard, not a hunting field (especially one in the rainforest environment I live in) and it succumbed to the elements before a full season was up. I would considering giving my right arm for another, especially if it were designed for rugged field use. Since I run small dogs, its hard to find a field quality collar that they can lift off the ground.

This gadget you speak of has another great use - its a remote control bell for finding hawks. Wouldn't completely replace a bell in my mind, but I cant tell you how many 1,000s of times I was searching within earshot of my hawk who was sitting tight and still. If I could have trigged the bell to ring in those moments remotely I could get those sessions to end.

[PeteJ]

Actually, I'd be much more interested in it for the use as sort of a remote bell so that when the bird is down, in cover, someplace where their bell not be able to be heard that well, that you can send out a signal that would make them 'beep'. I hate having to whip out the yagi and receiver just to check where the Coop is when I know he's in this bush or that bush or maybe that one over there. It would be so much simpler to make a ring tone come on remotely from say 50 feet or so.
I almost thought about getting a 'er' like they have for keychains so you can find them in your house when you've misplaced them. But I didn't want to be out in the desert ing like a flamenco dancer when I'm just trying to find my bird easily. People might be watching and alert the authorities in the white suits and the padded cargo van.

[Hawkmom]

Brilliant idea and concept. The ringer on cell phones is tiny. Could have a small one mounted on the hawk.

[Hawkmom]

Add a LED for night flying or abatement and we have a great tool.

[rkumetz]

Add a LED for night flying or abatement and we have a great tool.

Doesn't Marshall already have a transmitter with an LED on it?

[mainefalconer]

Doesn't Marshall already have a transmitter with an LED on it?

Yeah they do. It's called the "Hey Horned Owl, I'm Over Here" Transmitter.

[rkumetz]

Yeah they do. It's called the "Hey Horned Owl, I'm Over Here" Transmitter.

I think the jury is still out on that one. A very bright LED flashing in dim light or darkness would presumably be an oddity to a GHO so whether it would interpret that as a dinner bell or something to avoid is questionable. I don't think that one can draw a direct parallel between some piece of equipment causing a wild predator to think your bird is injured and thus an easy meal and a flashing light. A secondary factor is that my perusal of stuff written by those who have tried to train GHO's for falconry seems to indicate that their hunting is very much guided by hearing and they are not as dependent on their vision for identifying prey items.

It would be interesting to test this but one would need to avoid accidentally training the owl to regard a flashing LED as a dinner bell rather than testing its natural response to the light.

[Hawkmom]

The light would also have a remote switch.

[goshawkr]

I think the jury is still out on that one. A very bright LED flashing in dim light or darkness would presumably be an oddity to a GHO so whether it would interpret that as a dinner bell or something to avoid is questionable. I don't think that one can draw a direct parallel between some piece of equipment causing a wild predator to think your bird is injured and thus an easy meal and a flashing light. A secondary factor is that my perusal of stuff written by those who have tried to train GHO's for falconry seems to indicate that their hunting is very much guided by hearing and they are not as dependent on their vision for identifying prey items.

It would be interesting to test this but one would need to avoid accidentally training the owl to regard a flashing LED as a dinner bell rather than testing its natural response to the light.

Your points are valid...

However, its NEVER a good idea to draw the attention of a hungry predator.

[adam norrie]

I would like to see a remote device that can turn on a transmitter that a stupid falconer forgot to do. It may aid in me getting back my falcon

[barbedraptor]

The device's components would be a beeper, battery, and a remote controlled on/off switch that would stay on for like 3 or 4 seconds. If falconers only knew the power of a CR to teach new and/or precis behaviors, they would build this device. Jim Fustos

[rkumetz]

OK. I have started working on this project and have made some significant progress. I have a few questions that I would like to toss out:

How would you prefer to attach this to your bird?

How much could it weigh and/or how large could it be to make it effective?
(I think for the first go around we may want to rule out making it small enough for use on a merlin or other micro hawk but we shall see!)

What would it have to sell for to make it cost effective? Let's be realistic here it is not going to sell for $29. The falconry market doesn't support the sort of volume production that will allow that to happen.

[barbedraptor]

Hi Ron, I am so excited that you see this as a powerfull raptor training tool. I don't think $200 to $500 dollars is too much. I would easily pay $1000 and I am poor. I am not familiar with the use or abilities of the backpack and don't know if they can handle more weight than a leg mount. I like leg mounts for a lot of reasons. As far as weight goes I just think it should be less than 15 gms for raptors one pound or bigger. How much did the first original transmitters weigh? If there is anything I can do, let me know. Best, Jim Fustos

[thebooster99]

Several people already us a light beam as a Conditioned Reinforcer, instead of sound. This way it is instantaneous. They are training falcons at several thousand feet with the light. I don't think the elaborate sound setup is necessary.

[rkumetz]

Several people already us a light beam as a Conditioned Reinforcer, instead of sound. This way it is instantaneous. They are training falcons at several thousand feet with the light. I don't think the elaborate sound setup is necessary.

What sort of bad-ass light do you need to use as a CR device in bright sunlight? Competing with the sun is not exactly an easy thing to do.

I suppose that is an alternate way to do it but it would presuppose that whatever behavior your are reinforcing has the bird watching you and the light. For those who want the remote sound device to find their bird in high grass or similar the light is useless. And of course there is no challenge to building a flashlight while designing a very small lightweight receiver and sound device is a genuinely cool thing to do to keep me off the streets and out of trouble.

[barbedraptor]

The problem with a light is that the raptor has to be looking at you the second they are doing the good behavior. I would much rather they be concentrating on their complex job and be habituated to listening for the buzzer. Best, Jim Fustos

[thebooster99]

What sort of bad-ass light do you need to use as a CR device in bright sunlight? Competing with the sun is not exactly an easy thing to do.

I suppose that is an alternate way to do it but it would presuppose that whatever behavior your are reinforcing has the bird watching you and the light. For those who want the remote sound device to find their bird in high grass or similar the light is useless. And of course there is no challenge to building a flashlight while designing a very small lightweight receiver and sound device is a genuinely cool thing to do to keep me off the streets and out of trouble.

Ron,
I didn't know the need was to find the bird in high grass. It was my understanding that there was a conditioned reinforcer needed at a distance, which can easily be accomplished by a hand held spotlight that you can buy at walmart for 36 dollars.

Granted, the bird must be looking at you when you hit it with the light. However, if you have conditioned your bird correctly, it will be eagerly looking for that CR while it is performing the desired behavior, which makes the only time that it can't see is when it is facing directly away from you. If you're dealing with a mounting falcon, this time period is generally only a split second. I agree that there are a few limitations but I would personally rather keep things simple. I've found that the more complex and technical things get in my life, the more things fail and screw me over.

[rkumetz]

Ron,
I didn't know the need was to find the bird in high grass. It was my understanding that there was a conditioned reinforcer needed at a distance, which can easily be accomplished by a hand held spotlight that you can buy at walmart for 36 dollars.

Granted, the bird must be looking at you when you hit it with the light. However, if you have conditioned your bird correctly, it will be eagerly looking for that CR while it is performing the desired behavior, which makes the only time that it can't see is when it is facing directly away from you. If you're dealing with a mounting falcon, this time period is generally only a split second. I agree that there are a few limitations but I would personally rather keep things simple. I've found that the more complex and technical things get in my life, the more things fail and screw me over.

Toby,
The electronic bell thing was something that popped up later. I think PeteJ contributed that idea. Those who have PM'd me, emailed and called have pretty much echoed Jim Fustos in wanting to have the bird conditioned to listen for the CR reinforcement and not be distracted from the task at hand. Since my knowledge of CR is not what I would like it to be I have to defer to those who know more about the subject than I do.

As far as the technology part goes I think we are at a point where we can make a reasonably reliable device. Let's face it, if you drop your flashlight when the bulb is warm you may kill it so nothing is totally fool proof.
That being said whenever I try to use one of the time and effort saving programs on my computer they usually cost me more time and effort than doing it the old way so I hear you about complicating your life!

[redbird1]

This is an important idea - one with amazing potential. Here are requirements/performance parameters I (personally) would consider for your project:

1.The device would be attachable/detachable to existing backpacks; configured for concurrent attachment in conjunction with most existing backpack transmitters.

2. If the above requirement is not feasible; the project scope would be broadened to include creation/fabrication of a backpack mount capable of meeting this reqirement (said mount to be equally serviceable for use with: trans./signaller, trans. alone or signaller alone; produced at a cost to allow retail at no more than 2x the retail price of current backpack mounts).

3. The product would be manually serviceable (battery installation/replacement; mounting bracket/antenna replacement) by the user (no use of tools required)

4. The product would be sufficienty durable to:
a. Perform if left attached to the bird (mews/weathering)
b.Withstand reasonable impacts/bird behaviors
c. Withstand temperature ranges typically associated with falconry use cases
d. Be moisture resistant (for situations short of immersion)
e. Utilize power draw allowing for 30-day battery life (typical transmitter-type battery)

5. The signaller product would be remotely controllable to produce an audible tone of sufficient strength to be heard from at least 25 yards away.

6. The signaller would be remotely controllable to initiate activation of a continuous LED strobe that would be visible (line of sight) in daylight from at least 50 yards away.

7. The remote controller activation for all functions would have a line of sight range of at least 50 yards.

8. The signaller product would be produced at a cost to allow retail less than/equal to $200.

Don't know if this is doable (it is admittedly a tall order, scope/performance/cost trade-offs may be necessary), but as you consider AoA's, these would be my objective customer requirements/performance parameters. Thresholds might be lower.

Mike

[redbird1]

I realize my requirements/performance parameters are "hawk-centric" - different requirements/performance parameters might apply to falcons. What can I say? I fly hawks and I am unqualified to comment on performance requirements for training high-fliers (or the capabilitie/limitations of required commercially available technology).

[rkumetz]

Mike,
A lot of the requirements are givens however one thing you must consider is the battery life issue. This device is a receiver which must listen for "input" constantly and though you can have short battery saver intervals it really needs to be listening most of the time. A transmitter gets great battery life because it simply powers itself down to a super low power state where only a timer is running which wakes it up for the next beep and the receiver end can't do that. In that same light adding an LED that is visible from 150 feet in relatively bright daylight is going to suck the battery down big time. Clearly you would not have it doing that for very long but that mode would eat your battery very quickly.

A big tradeoff here is the packaging. A company like Marshall is able to amortize the cost of its nice machined packaging over thousands of transmitters sold worldwide. This device is likely to sell hundreds if that so investing in molds or extensive tooling is not practical unless Bill and Melinda Gates decide to fund the project.

BTW I do appreciate your the amount of time you obviously put into composing your answer.

[redbird1]

I realize that it is easy to ask for the moon - not what I was trying to do, glad you understand. When I work on a project, the requirements/ performance parameters seem to come better when I get lots of input to consider (that was my goal, to just help get the ideas flowing). I totally respect the fact that you are the radio guru, LOL.

[Venomlust]

Very interesting. To somebody with little understanding of OC techniques, this has piqued my interest.

I wonder if Kickstarter.com would be a viable marketplace for falconry-related products. Hmm... I'm afraid I'm too ignorant of the entire design/assembly process to say, but it has potential.

[barbedraptor]

Ron, I am so excited that you are using and testing a signalling device prototype. I could write a small users manual for its use and applications. Waiting on training is a perfect behavior to train with this tool. After falconers see how easy it is to train a falcon to wait on they will all want one. Congradulations! Jim Fustos

[goshawkr]

Actually the battery power has proven not to be the major issue. I have a prototype running and it works very well. The big hurdle is making the unit for a price that a small number of people will be willing to pay. This was a big issue with my Signal Finder as well. The market for this device in the falconry community is smaller than the Signal Finder. There is a small handful of people who desperately want one and would pay a few hundred dollars to get one. The rest would probably buy one for under $50. The electronics is microscopic so it doesn't require much space at all. You also need to be aware that if you create any sort of device that is an "intentional radiator" (device that purposely emits a radio signal) you must do FCC certification testing at the very least which requires calibrated and traceable test equipment. Since the circuitry is so small it will be necessary to use surface mount technology and that is not something you want to do on your kitchen table so an investment must be made in having a production lot done. That is likely to be about 1000 units to get a contract manufacturing facility interested.

The electronics is not rocket science but business of doing business with falconers is very complicated when it comes to electronic devices.

Ron,

As I mentioned before I have been arm chair developing this product since November '97.

I fully appreciate what you are saying about the falconry market not being robust enough to overcome the development inertia against something like this. I realized that early on when contemplating how to get this gadget into my hands instead of just my daydreams.

There are a few other markets out there. I am certain that I can find the numbers you need. Give me a call and we can share ideas.

[FredFogg]

Actually the battery power has proven not to be the major issue. I have a prototype running and it works very well. The big hurdle is making the unit for a price that a small number of people will be willing to pay. This was a big issue with my Signal Finder as well. The market for this device in the falconry community is smaller than the Signal Finder. There is a small handful of people who desperately want one and would pay a few hundred dollars to get one. The rest would probably buy one for under $50. The electronics is microscopic so it doesn't require much space at all. You also need to be aware that if you create any sort of device that is an "intentional radiator" (device that purposely emits a radio signal) you must do FCC certification testing at the very least which requires calibrated and traceable test equipment. Since the circuitry is so small it will be necessary to use surface mount technology and that is not something you want to do on your kitchen table so an investment must be made in having a production lot done. That is likely to be about 1000 units to get a contract manufacturing facility interested.

The electronics is not rocket science but business of doing business with falconers is very complicated when it comes to electronic devices.

Ron, just thinking out loud but could it be made as a kit where folks bought the kit with certain parts and then bought or used other things to make the parts needed to finish making it so that it wouldn't have to be massed produced. And would that eliminate the FCC certification process? Something sort of how Bruce sold the insides of a bownet trigger release and then posted a thread on how to hook it all up and what to buy to finish it off. Again, I know nothing about any of this stuff so just thinking out loud.

[Mandragen]

really like this idea, keep it up!

[DtRooster]

Any headway on this as either a remote OC or more importantly for me a location bell. The undergrowth down here stays pretty gnarly even after the winter kill off.

[rkumetz]

Any headway on this as either a remote OC or more importantly for me a location bell. The undergrowth down here stays pretty gnarly even after the winter kill off.

Yes and no. The problem that I am having with it at the moment it making it at all environmentally sealed while still allowing the sound to be less than a muffled rumbling. I continue to slog away.....

[DtRooster]

Bring it if you get something, I'd definitely be interested

[Flight]

Thought of this the other day while out trapping. I'd love to have one of these to put on my BC while out road trapping. Spent a good 30 minutes tracking back and forth on the roadside trying to find it, I painted it green and it vanishes in the grass. It would be real handy if I could attach this, or something similar to "page" my trap and get back on the road. lol

[goshawkr]

Thought of this the other day while out trapping. I'd love to have one of these to put on my BC while out road trapping. Spent a good 30 minutes tracking back and forth on the roadside trying to find it, I painted it green and it vanishes in the grass. It would be real handy if I could attach this, or something similar to "page" my trap and get back on the road. lol

for going on a BC, there are a lot of options that are too big and bulky to work well on a hawk. Usually marketed as "key finder". And they are dirt cheep.

[Squid180]

I love this idea. Following. Let us know what can be done to make it a reality.