Has anybody thought of or tried to use ecollar technology on a raptor?

[rkumetz]

I have to admitt I have been watching this thread evolve, and waiting for the right moment to post....just wanted to see what was going to happen...i guess morbid curiosity.
I TOTALLY agree with Jeff and Jeff and Bill!!!! I have been working with and selling E-collars for awhile now. Like most have said they are a GREAT tool in ones tool box....when used APPROPRIATELY!!!!!!! I have seen the negative effects in dogs when they were not used correctly, but have also seen those same dogs come around and be VERY comfortable with the use of a collar. I can say that while working at a training kennel we worked with 100's of dogs that returned year after year, and never showed negative attitudes with the collar. My own personal dog for instance runs to me as soon as he sees the collar....he associates it with something FUN and GOOD!!!! Thats the way it was meant to work!!!!
I respect Audry and those others that have voiced their opinion of not wanting to use the e-collars, to each their own. But, I have come to see e-collars as an invaluable and versatile tool and wont be giving them up any time soon.
As to the actual reason for this thread....not on birds...not a good idea!

This post and a few earlier posts hit the point. The question was with regard to using a collar-like contraption on a bird not about using collars on dogs. Just because we disagree doesn't mean that the conversation has degraded. As long as we are not calling each other idiots and being juvenile some spirited debate is how new ideas are explored.

I completely agree that "zapping" your dog to avoid having him run over by a truck in the future is probably a good idea and in comparison to having your dog end up a tripod (or worse) a pretty humane idea as well.

But I still haven't seen an explanation of how to use a collar like device to motivate a falconry bird. ...........

[goshawkr]

Negative stimuli are used on raptors. I read on this forum not too long ago about someone using chili peppers to get a bird to not take a certain prey species. It was claimed to work. What is the difference?

Really? I dont doubt that makeing somthing distastefull will work to that end, but I do have serious doubts taht chili peppers would do the trick. My understanding is that birds completely lack the receptors to percieve capacian (the chemical that makes peppers "hot"). A pepper with enough capacian to cause a mamamal to choke and die wouldnt even be noticed by a bird.

[Mandragen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsaicin


Natural function
Capsaicin is present in large quantities in the placental tissue (which holds the seeds), the internal membranes and, to a lesser extent, the other fleshy parts of the fruits of plants in the genus Capsicum. The seeds themselves do not produce any capsaicin, although the highest concentration of capsaicin can be found in the white pith of the inner wall, where the seeds are attached.[21]
The seeds of Capsicum plants are predominantly dispersed by birds. Birds do not have the receptor to which capsaicin binds, so it does not function as an irritant for them. Chili pepper seeds consumed by birds pass through the digestive tract and can germinate later, but mammals have molars, which destroy seeds and prevent them from germinating. Thus, natural selection may have led to increasing capsaicin production because it makes the plant less likely to be eaten by animals that do not help it reproduce.[22] There is also evidence that capsaicin evolved as an anti-fungal agent,[1] and capsaicinoids are broadly anti-microbial.[23]
In 2006, it was discovered that tarantula venom activates the same pathway of pain as is activated by capsaicin, the first demonstrated case of such a shared pathway in both plant and animal anti-mammal defense.[24]

Pest deterrent
Capsaicin is also used to deter mammalian pests. A common example is the use of ground-up or crushed dried chili pods in birdseed to deter squirrels,[51] since birds are unaffected by capsaicin. Another example is the use of chili peppers by the Elephant Pepper Development Trust to improve crop security for rural communities in Africa.
Although hot chili pepper extract is commonly used as a component of household and garden insect repellent formulas, it is not clear that the capsaicinoid elements of the extract are responsible for its repellency.[52]
There are manufacturers that do sell a capsaicin-based gel product that is reported to be a feral-pigeon (Columba livia) deterrent from specific roosting and loafing areas. Some of these products do have an EPA label and NSF approval.

that last part looks interesting enough though...

[goshawkr]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsaicin


Natural function
Capsaicin is present in large quantities in the placental tissue (which holds the seeds), the internal membranes and, to a lesser extent, the other fleshy parts of the fruits of plants in the genus Capsicum. The seeds themselves do not produce any capsaicin, although the highest concentration of capsaicin can be found in the white pith of the inner wall, where the seeds are attached.[21]
The seeds of Capsicum plants are predominantly dispersed by birds. Birds do not have the receptor to which capsaicin binds, so it does not function as an irritant for them. Chili pepper seeds consumed by birds pass through the digestive tract and can germinate later, but mammals have molars, which destroy seeds and prevent them from germinating. Thus, natural selection may have led to increasing capsaicin production because it makes the plant less likely to be eaten by animals that do not help it reproduce.[22] There is also evidence that capsaicin evolved as an anti-fungal agent,[1] and capsaicinoids are broadly anti-microbial.[23]
In 2006, it was discovered that tarantula venom activates the same pathway of pain as is activated by capsaicin, the first demonstrated case of such a shared pathway in both plant and animal anti-mammal defense.[24]

Pest deterrent
Capsaicin is also used to deter mammalian pests. A common example is the use of ground-up or crushed dried chili pods in birdseed to deter squirrels,[51] since birds are unaffected by capsaicin. Another example is the use of chili peppers by the Elephant Pepper Development Trust to improve crop security for rural communities in Africa.
Although hot chili pepper extract is commonly used as a component of household and garden insect repellent formulas, it is not clear that the capsaicinoid elements of the extract are responsible for its repellency.[52]
There are manufacturers that do sell a capsaicin-based gel product that is reported to be a feral-pigeon (Columba livia) deterrent from specific roosting and loafing areas. Some of these products do have an EPA label and NSF approval.

that last part looks interesting enough though...

Yes it does. Now it leads the skeptic in me to wonder if it works, or if its hype. There are no end of products sold with very convincing labeling that are completely uneffective.

Its also possible that the example mentioned of putting chilis on a hawks food detered it from catching that item again because the hawk thought it tasted foul, but my scientific skepticism needs some coaxing to swallow it.

I certainly believe that a falconer swore by its effectiveness - just have my doubts that it actually was.

[Mandragen]

Yes it does. Now it leads the skeptic in me to wonder if it works, or if its hype. There are no end of products sold with very convincing labeling that are completely uneffective.

Its also possible that the example mentioned of putting chilis on a hawks food detered it from catching that item again because the hawk thought it tasted foul, but my scientific skepticism needs some coaxing to swallow it.

I certainly believe that a falconer swore by its effectiveness - just have my doubts that it actually was.

I'm with you there

[Tom Smith]

I'm with you there

Not to get to far off topic here but we were just removing an air conditioner for winterization when we found a huge Lady Bug roost and they have an unpleasant smell and I understand that they taste really bad to birds, so I wonder if a potent made from an extract of Lady Bugs could be a bird deterrent and effective on say feral pigeons or starlings in a feed lot providing that they aren't also toxic. Maybe they could achieve the same effect in discouraging a raptor of pursuing a particular quarry if that was desirable.

Some of my birds have quit certain quarries on having tasted them. Like magpies must have an unpleasant taste, but I have seen wild hawks eating them but not to often and my own birds have turned them down after a bite or two. (back when they were unprotected)

[goshawkr]

I'm glad to see many people understand the downfalls of punishment.

I'd also like to point out that many people would also point out the downfalls of using positive reinforcement - and there are MANY if its not properly used. For example, its very easy for your subject to become "spoiled" where it will not perform without being bribed.

Its pretty common to view training using aversives/punishment as being "ignorant" or "backwards", especially be adherants to positive methods like OC. Thats a gross mistake. Thats not to say that they are not fraught with problems, were never misused, etc etc. But they did NOT arrise out of ignorance.

Finally, to be effective, punishment has to be timed perfectly at the precise moment when the animal thinks about acting "wrongly", up to the point where he starts acting.

Timing is important. Just as important with punishement as it is with using a reward, and for exaclty the same reasons. The real trick with both punishment and with reward is getting the subject to draw the link between the stimulant being delivered (reward/punishment) and the reason for that being delivered.

When my daughter gets out of line, I can sit her down and have a detailed discussion as to why I am taking her cell phone away, and she will make the link. I can also tell her why I am giving her a bonus with her allowance this week.

With my hawk/dog - all I can do is give the stimulant (positive or negative) and hope they make the link. I can often deliever while they are thinking about acting adn before they actually do act, but that dosnt assure they will link cause and effect.

Also, its quite possible for the link to be made even if you completely miss your timing, but the odds go way down. This is equally true of punishment as it is of reward.

And there is always a way to train the exact same behavior out or in an animal without the use of any aversive. Always.

While that may absolutely be true, the ammount of effort it takes to get the message through via positive means may be overwhelming whereas just a simple "slap" of punishment may get the point across loud and clear in an instant.

Why do people like using punishment? A british study showed that, unbeknownst to the punisher, the pleasure pathways in the brain are strongly activated when the punisher delivers a punishment for a behavior he deemed wrong. Delivering a "deserved" punishment brings a very strong positive reinforcement to the punisher, regardless of the result of the punishment, weither it worked in preventing the occurence of the punished behavior or not. The pleasure pathways can then build shortcuts that will activate at a hairtrigger, thus being even more reinforcing. The neurotransmitters used in this pathway also have a very strong addictive effect, they act like a drug would act and one will want to experience the feeling again. Those are some reasons why we, as human beings, have the reflex to punish, not to reinforce, and we have to train ourselves to become positive trainers...

I believe there is something really deep seated here - something we shaer with other species, even those that we view as "non social", including raptors.

I have seen dogs "punish" dogs that they thought were getting away with something, that they thought were acting "wrong." Sadly, its gunna be a tough one to demonstrate experimentally.

Regardless - your right on the money here Audrey. We Do have some strong biological urges to punish, and they are heavily reinforced. Its important to remember to temper that.

I think thats one reason why shock collars have gotten such a bad rap - its so very easy to over use them, and very rewarding (for the biological reasons you mentioned) to do so.

[keitht]

I use and have used e-collars for many years and would not want to be without one. Like almost anything, they can easily be misused. What many people do not realize is that dogs have to be trained to an e-collar. The e-collars that I use have the vibrate function and I can tell you that a dog that is trained well to the collar can be controlled with nothing more than the vibrate function. My dogs will stop doing whatever it is they are doing and head straight for me for instruction anytime they detect the vibration. That to me seems much more humane than the many dogs I have seen with owners who scream and loose their tempers because their dog will not do as the owner wanted. To my eye, these dogs and their owners seem out of control. An e-collar is not the only way to achieve the goal, but it is an excellent way if one chooses to do it right.

I have an old long retired bird dog that went deaf years ago. I also have an old retired e-collar that nothing works on but the vibrate function. I put the worn out collar on the worn out dog and after the old dog has had its run and feels the vibrate, it runs on back home for its meal.

Perhaps when I get too old and worn the kids will put the vibrate collar on me and let me have a nice walk outside every now and then.

Hawks are very different from dogs and will not respond in the same way to the same stimuli.

[Icantmove]

Possible transformer deterrent? Just a thought ...

[RyanVZ]

Hypothetically, shocking a bird to stop screaming or prevent landing could work. Birds of prey definitely understand punishment. Fledgling Peregrines fly around begging from their parents. This is tolerated for a time but eventually the parents decide they are done caring for their babies and will stoop them knocking the snot outta those juvies until they are quiet or leave. If a young eagle wonders into the territory of an adult pair, they are not very nice in how they get rid of that intruder. Hawks will crab and harass one another until one gives up it's prey and flies off.

Most of these punishments result in the bird flying away or off though, not something that we want our birds to do. I'm not advocating punishment as a training method for birds of prey, and I do not use use it, shoot I don't even man birds, but I do take into consideration that animals, including raptors, do use punishment as a form of leaning in the wild. There are many ways to do things, falconry is a great example of that. 10 different falconers can do things 10 different ways and all have healthy birds, catch the same amount of the same quarry, great manners, quiet, perfect birds. The biggest problem is that all 10 of those falconers think that their way is best.

[andy hall]

Hypothetically, shocking a bird to stop screaming or prevent landing could work. Birds of prey definitely understand punishment.

Gosh Ryan, and I thought they were totally different than every other creature on Earth, lol

Andy

[Mandragen]

I use and have used e-collars for many years and would not want to be without one. Like almost anything, they can easily be misused. What many people do not realize is that dogs have to be trained to an e-collar. The e-collars that I use have the vibrate function and I can tell you that a dog that is trained well to the collar can be controlled with nothing more than the vibrate function. My dogs will stop doing whatever it is they are doing and head straight for me for instruction anytime they detect the vibration. That to me seems much more humane than the many dogs I have seen with owners who scream and loose their tempers because their dog will not do as the owner wanted. To my eye, these dogs and their owners seem out of control. An e-collar is not the only way to achieve the goal, but it is an excellent way if one chooses to do it right.

I have an old long retired bird dog that went deaf years ago. I also have an old retired e-collar that nothing works on but the vibrate function. I put the worn out collar on the worn out dog and after the old dog has had its run and feels the vibrate, it runs on back home for its meal.

Perhaps when I get too old and worn the kids will put the vibrate collar on me and let me have a nice walk outside every now and then.

Hawks are very different from dogs and will not respond in the same way to the same stimuli.

This is an excellent example Keith! You have simply trained a recall, and sounds like something that I might actually try. Maybe I can get Heather to give me a discount on one of her e-collars!

[Pedioecetes]

Keith,
Very well put. I have maintained for a long time that a little electricity well used goes a long way. I never give my dogs commands in the field other than to call them in. I am amazed how many dog people keep a constant barrage of loud commands going while working their dogs. I suspect a lot of those dogs are not allowed to do their assigned jobs by their own wisdom. The ecollar with the vibrate or tone buttons are the best communication tool for in the field hawking. Where I live the country is wide open and the game gets very jumpy and wild. To me the sound of the prairie is wrecked by shouting, and sometimes angry dog handlers. I have used Gordon Setters since the mid-eighties and they just fit in with what I do. Even here I see no point in a dog hunting as far away as it can get, a hundred yards of range by a dog that always wants to know where you are works just fine. Even when they know the game the ecollar keeps them honest and works in silence.

[gratefool1]

When i was a kid in school, I would get a bit buried in the subject of the moment, especially math. The teacher may have moved on to something else, but I was still deeply concentrating on my math text. She would come up behind me, smile and gently tap me on the shoulder and say "Ab, we are moving on to social studies now. It is time to put up the math book and open up social studies."

I didn't see the tap as a punishment, just a way of gently getting my attention so that I could get back on track with the rest of class.

Now if I had been one of the disruptive kids, I am sure something more akin to punishment might have been used, but it wasn't. So I guess what I am saying is that maybe not all tactile stimulation to correct behavior need necessarily be construed as "punishment".

[EAZFalconer]

I love my collar. So many uses.

[wilkiesc]

I have been professionally training animals long enough now to realize that it is an art, as much as a science. Shoot in the last year I've been informed by a psych professor, who is on this forum, that OC is out dated and discounted in a lot of psych these days in favor of more modern thoughts on learning.

I am not a psych professional and certainly cannot contradict a professor of psychology, but I can definitely add that OC is still utilized in neurobiology. I agree with most of what Kitana said based on neurobiological pathways. I do think that there is one useful tidbit that I can add to this great topic - some critique is necessary for a "healthy" system. Criticism is necessary to continue improving knowledge and technology. I am not saying that there is a better method. Quite honestly, I do not know. But remember that these critiques may some day end up benefiting your bird.

I think that becoming educated in the respective area and making sensical decisions based on what you have learned is still the best practice. Considering these critiques can only strengthen and improve your knowledge in the area, right? If, after all of that you feel the same way, continue using what you think is best.

The latter part of the post was in reference to the people that grew frustrated with the discussion. I don't know how to quote from different posts in one reply. Apologies.

[grimmy440]

in my mind, birds of pray are much more intelligent, and more capable of reason, than dogs. unless you are going to leave the ecollar or ebackpack on at all times, the bird could come to associate you attaching it with the negative stemuli. it may even become severe enough that you couldn't attach telemetry or any other equipment.
just some food for thought

[awleaphart]

I use them on my Feist,
They work well on a dog. Some have a beep for the page. The one I have vibrate. Im training a new dog right now and only use the vibrate on the collar and it has been working great. I main use it for the Come here command. After about 6 months you don't even need the collar any more.
Anthony

[Captain Gizmo]

Dogs and hairless monkeys are pack animals. A combination of negative and positive reinforcement works in a social context. Humans have a fair instinctive understanding of the workings of the dog mind. Even with pack animals behaviors ingrained by positive reinforcement have a slower extinction rate than behaviors generated with negative reinforcement.

Hawks are essentially solitary animals. They have enough forward planning capability to recognize a cue signalling a delayed reward from a behavior. Their ability to link a negative reinforcement is very limited. By and large the negative reinforcement must be very immediate and have no social context to be effective.