New Product Announcement: GPS

[rrcoati]

Can you use two at once?

[Captain Gizmo]

The Global Positioning System (GPS) is a location and navigation utility using a transmit only satellite constellation. This means that the user handset is a receive only device. The receiver listens to a set of 24 satellites (plus 12 "spares") in 55 deg. inclined orbits with 12 hour orbit times. Using the Time Difference Of Arrival (TDOA) of the signals from two satellites you can compute a line on the surface of the earth that meets that TDOA geometry. From a third satellite you compute another line. Where the two lines cross is where your receiver is located. From a fourth satellite you can compute altitude. The system is reliable as long as your receiver, in this case the locator tag on the hawk (Tag) has a clear view of the sky and can see a sufficient number of satellites. Inside a building, under a heavy forest canopy, and the old "she caught a rabbit inside a culvert" trick all block reception.

GPS is originally intended as a system to aid in killing people. It is robust and redundant. Military gear must be reliable. The military reserves the authority to scramble or "degrade" the signal. That authority has not been exercised to date.

Given a clear view of the sky acquiring the GPS position and altitude at the Tag is essentially trivial. The tough part is relaying that information from the Tag to the user. The two currently available methods are Cell Phone (GSM) and Direct Radio Link (DRL) to a dedicated user handset.

Uplink to a satellite is not available with current technology. The Argos satellite uplink used for wildlife studies (Island Girl) has a delay time of days to weeks and energy demands that make more than one report a day impractical. Argos air time is very expensive.

The advantage of GSM is location anywhere on the planet IF both the Tag and the user's cell phone have coverage. GSM is a TDMA phone protocol, which in North America means AT&T or T-Mobil. The state of Montana has zero TDMA phone service. The information goes via SMS or Text Message to your cell phone with the associated delay time for exchanging a pair of SMS packets. Requesting frequent updates burns the battery in a hurry.

DRL is best at real time (delay in seconds rather than minutes) and can support streaming data on a viable energy budget. For a given transmitter power data can travel 1/2 to 1/3 as far as a beep. DRL is better suited to the "convenience" mode but needs a Beep to back it up for longer range recovery mode. DRL has the same problems with dropping behind a hill as a Beep and the same solutions(get the receive antenna up high, use a Yagi). MRT is quoting 3 miles range down and dirty and 15 miles range line of sight.

So GSM is better at long range recovery (cell phone coverage allowing) and DRL is better at the convenience mode (radio propagation path allowing).
Use a back up Beep in both cases.

The Marshall and Martin systems are DRL, and require a dedicated receiver. In the case of the Marshal the receiver (Pocketlink) talks to your smart phone to give display function. The Martin appears to be an all in one receiver/display.
The ByMap and Ledesma systems are GSM and can use any TDMA smart phone as the user receiver/display.
The Microsensory Tag is both DRL and GSM. It requires a dedicated receiver/display in DRL mode.

[Ducksanddogs]

Excellent, thanks.

If they could only get it in a micro!

[Captain Gizmo]

The Martin Systems says "up to 16 falcons at once".

Any GPS Tag system that is cell phone based is unlimited, each Tag has it's own phone number. Sending an SMS and Receiving an SMS from multiple phone numbers may take a bit of time.

For a Direct Radio Link (DRL) system (Marshall, Martin, and Microsensory) it is just a matter of software. The dedicated receiver could use either separate frequencies for each Tag or the Tags could each have a digital identifier on their data packets.

As to doing real time graphic displays with multiple tracks on screen, again it is all software.

[Tim Jessell]

Inspired!

I think the "G"ps is for goosebumps .

[dliepe]

As if the sport wasn't fun enough already Tim!
This is going to be great!

[rkumetz]

Any GPS Tag system that is cell phone based is unlimited, each Tag has it's own phone number. Sending an SMS and Receiving an SMS from multiple phone numbers may take a bit of time.

For a Direct Radio Link (DRL) system (Marshall, Martin, and Microsensory)

Keep in mind that a GSM based system IS limited by your budget. The transmitter is essentially a cell phone so it needs to have a SIM card that is active whether it is prepaid or has a "plan". If you get a super cheap plan with a limit on messages then you may want to crank down the update rate a lot or you risk running out of messages on a prepaid SIM card before you get your bird back.

So that is another factor to ponder when deciding on a direct link vs GSM. There is no recurring cost on the direct link (other than batteries)

[Tony James]

As if the sport wasn't fun enough already Tim!
This is going to be great!

Hi David,

over the past couple of seasons I've seen two GPS systems in use, and this one adds even more to the mix.
As an aid to recovering a lost hawk it's a real step up from conventional telemetry, and to have all that and more contained within a standard transmitter unit is quite exceptional (I've been put off previously due to the size of the transmitter unit).
It's not just that recovering a hawk will become simpler, quicker, and safer, but we will now know at a glance whether a hawk is actually 'lost', in need of recovery, or simply that she is out of position, or out of sight, and working her way back. No more frustrating, perhaps dangerous delays while deciding whether to set off in search or not.
On top of all that, this mapping system, available after the event as well as during it, will enable us to learn so much about our hawk's flights and our management of them.
It will indeed be great.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[goshawkr]

Hi David,

over the past couple of seasons I've seen two GPS systems in use, and this one adds even more to the mix.
As an aid to recovering a lost hawk it's a real step up from conventional telemetry, and to have all that and more contained within a standard transmitter unit is quite exceptional (I've been put off previously due to the size of the transmitter unit).
It's not just that recovering a hawk will become simpler, quicker, and safer, but we will now know at a glance whether a hawk is actually 'lost', in need of recovery, or simply that she is out of position, or out of sight, and working her way back. No more frustrating, perhaps dangerous delays while deciding whether to set off in search or not.
On top of all that, this mapping system, available after the event as well as during it, will enable us to learn so much about our hawk's flights and our management of them.
It will indeed be great.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Ya, but its going to end all those physical brawls over whose falcon flies the highest. What fun is that? Longwing falconry as we know it is about to end.

[dliepe]

Hi David,

over the past couple of seasons I've seen two GPS systems in use, and this one adds even more to the mix.
As an aid to recovering a lost hawk it's a real step up from conventional telemetry, and to have all that and more contained within a standard transmitter unit is quite exceptional (I've been put off previously due to the size of the transmitter unit).
It's not just that recovering a hawk will become simpler, quicker, and safer, but we will now know at a glance whether a hawk is actually 'lost', in need of recovery, or simply that she is out of position, or out of sight, and working her way back. No more frustrating, perhaps dangerous delays while deciding whether to set off in search or not.
On top of all that, this mapping system, available after the event as well as during it, will enable us to learn so much about our hawk's flights and our management of them.
It will indeed be great.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Soooo much peace of mind with this new unit...Tony, you nailed every key point on why I'm so much looking forward to this.
For me it's sometimes hard to tell with a bird up high wether or not it's stopped working for height. I want to serve before thier pitch flatlines, especially with a young bird in training.. Nice to know when they take that giant outrun, exactly when they turn and wether or not they are ascending or descending on the way back. Best thing to come along in awhile.. Hope it lives up to all the hype.

[BestBeagler]

all the other GPS transmitters I have seen are HUGE. I would never put one on any bird other than an eagle maybe. They just look UGLY.

I would choose a small battery and short life span over a huge transmitter and a longer life. I see this as a VERY useful tool (not just a retrieval device) that will revolutionize longwinging (if it works as good as they say). I would also never use it as a solo unit and have a back up transmitter (forces me to do the right thing ) If it works as good as advertised I see it as worth every penny.

[jmnucci]

I think regardless of what GPS technology is available right now, or in Sept., now that Marshall has entered the market we will see all the advances we've been dreaming about come to fruition in the next few years. The competition got turned up a few notches.

[JRedig]

all the other GPS transmitters I have seen are HUGE. I would never put one on any bird other than an eagle maybe. They just look UGLY.

I would choose a small battery and short life span over a huge transmitter and a longer life. I see this as a VERY useful tool (not just a retrieval device) that will revolutionize longwinging (if it works as good as they say). I would also never use it as a solo unit and have a back up transmitter (forces me to do the right thing ) If it works as good as advertised I see it as worth every penny.

Which ones are huge? I've seen a few, size doesn't concern me, weight does.

[falcon56]

all the other GPS transmitters I have seen are HUGE. I would never put one on any bird other than an eagle maybe. They just look UGLY.

I would choose a small battery and short life span over a huge transmitter and a longer life. I see this as a VERY useful tool (not just a retrieval device) that will revolutionize longwinging (if it works as good as they say). I would also never use it as a solo unit and have a back up transmitter (forces me to do the right thing ) If it works as good as advertised I see it as worth every penny.

Issac,
Curious, how you perceive this unit is going to "revolutionize longwinging"? Granted one will be able to see a flight pattern on an I pad, I phone etc. know pretty precisely how fast, how high, where the bird went, but it will not at all change the manner in which a person flies a falcon or hawk, or how the bird flies. When you look at the meat and potatoes of flying any bird, one still does the same basic things, this GPS unit just adds information, won't make the way a bird flies any better or worse. If the argument is that one can better time a flush by looking on a screen to judge position, one will spend more time looking at the screen, than watching the bird fly, which personally is what gives me the enjoyment-watching the bird fly. This is a nice tool, but the only thing revolutionized will be how accurate the flight can be analyzed when the bird is back on the fist.

[BestBeagler]

Which ones are huge? I've seen a few, size doesn't concern me, weight does.

Ledesma, Microsensory, Bymaps, Martin Systems. Not saying they aren't safe, just too big for me to want to put on a bird of mine.

[BestBeagler]

Issac,
Curious, how you perceive this unit is going to "revolutionize longwinging"? Granted one will be able to see a flight pattern on an I pad, I phone etc. know pretty precisely how fast, how high, where the bird went, but it will not at all change the manner in which a person flies a falcon or hawk, or how the bird flies. When you look at the meat and potatoes of flying any bird, one still does the same basic things, this GPS unit just adds information, won't make the way a bird flies any better or worse. If the argument is that one can better time a flush by looking on a screen to judge position, one will spend more time looking at the screen, than watching the bird fly, which personally is what gives me the enjoyment-watching the bird fly. This is a nice tool, but the only thing revolutionized will be how accurate the flight can be analyzed when the bird is back on the fist.

Information is power. For someone like me living in a more enclosed terrain the revolutionizing affect is obvious. When I don't have a visual on a bird I will be able to tell what it's doing giving me peace of mind and "loosen" the reigns it will be an amazing tool. Is my bird turning around is it climbing back what is it doing all these things can now be known without even seeing the bird. I am sure as time goes on people will be able to use the data received in many ways.

Triangulating will not be as necessary that is cool in itself.

It would awesome if Marshall includes in the software an alarm that alerts you when you should flush obviously you pre-program when that alarm goes off so you don't have to be looking at the screen all the time. They could program multiple alarms so you know for example when the bird hits a maximum height that it was last and then one more alarm when it hits the extra height you are looking for.

[rkumetz]

It would awesome if Marshall includes in the software an alarm that alerts you when you should flush obviously you pre-program when that alarm goes off so you don't have to be looking at the screen all the time. They could program multiple alarms so you know for example when the bird hits a maximum height that it was last and then one more alarm when it hits the extra height you are looking for.

Other cool alarms would be if the bird ventures more than a certain distance from your location and if the bird goes more than a certain distance or time headed in the same direction. The latter sort of giving you the message that your bird may be headed for the horizon.

[falcon56]

Isaac,
I sort of understand what you're trying to get at here, but there's way too much you are hoping the unit is going to do for you. As an example, just because you know what a bird is "doing" by looking at a screen, doesn't put an invisible tether on it-it can still do whatever it is going to do, whether you can see it or not, loosening the reins comes from ones confidence in the bird and the persons' training of said bird. You may not agree, but all this is leading to losing basic field mechanics and how to orchestrate flying a bird. I hardly even want to address the flush alarm component(and I realize you are going way outside the box) if you need a machine to tell you when to flush properly, it really starts to go down the toilet. In your enclosed area, a bird high enough to be out of sight is impractical, so I assume you would/should have eyes on the bird the majority of the time to be effective at all, so how is this whole going to help? Sure won't make the flush any more successful if the bird is that high.

[BestBeagler]

Isaac,
I sort of understand what you're trying to get at here, but there's way too much you are hoping the unit is going to do for you. As an example, just because you know what a bird is "doing" by looking at a screen, doesn't put an invisible tether on it-it can still do whatever it is going to do, whether you can see it or not, loosening the reins comes from ones confidence in the bird and the persons' training of said bird. You may not agree, but all this is leading to losing basic field mechanics and how to orchestrate flying a bird. I hardly even want to address the flush alarm component(and I realize you are going way outside the box) if you need a machine to tell you when to flush properly, it really starts to go down the toilet. In your enclosed area, a bird high enough to be out of sight is impractical, so I assume you would/should have eyes on the bird the majority of the time to be effective at all, so how is this whole going to help? Sure won't make the flush any more successful if the bird is that high.

But the challenge of getting a bird that high could be fun goal to set out to achieve. I think you are thinking this younger generation is looking for short cuts and a way to fly a bird from their smart phones I am not in that boat. I don't even own a smart phone.

[rkumetz]

But the challenge of getting a bird that high could be fun goal to set out to achieve. I think you are thinking this younger generation is looking for short cuts and a way to fly a bird from their smart phones I am not in that boat. I don't even own a smart phone.

Indeed. There is a big difference between having additional information available to you to assist you and using technology as a crutch. Surely there will be some who screw things up royally by making assumptions about how this new technology augments their skills.

This may actually convince me to ditch my flip phone. I have previously been unable to think of a convincing reason to get a smart phone since I refuse to answer (or send) text messages. If you want to talk to me then it had better be important enough to actually talk to me.

[BestBeagler]

Indeed. There is a big difference between having additional information available to you to assist you and using technology as a crutch. Surely there will be some who screw things up royally by making assumptions about how this new technology augments their skills.

This may actually convince me to ditch my flip phone. I have previously been unable to think of a convincing reason to get a smart phone since I refuse to answer (or send) text messages. If you want to talk to me then it had better be important enough to actually talk to me.

I am going to keep my "dumb" phone and get a mini I-pad just for this application.

Get this to protect it in the field I like the hunter orange color

http://www.amazon.com/Magpul-Industr.../dp/B00HLA7OH4

[falcon56]

But the challenge of getting a bird that high could be fun goal to set out to achieve. I think you are thinking this younger generation is looking for short cuts and a way to fly a bird from their smart phones I am not in that boat. I don't even own a smart phone.

I think you may be missing my point here. Having this gadget is not going to either make or break that challenge, you are the only one that is able to make this happen, with or without the unit. Whatever the case, I wish you all the luck in the world with your new training tool, me, I can think of so many, much more valuable things related to falconry that I would rather spend $995 dollars on. I guess that's the "old fart" coming to the surface.

[BestBeagler]

I think you may be missing my point here. Having this gadget is not going to either make or break that challenge, you are the only one that is able to make this happen, with or without the unit. Whatever the case, I wish you all the luck in the world with your new training tool, me, I can think of so many, much more valuable things related to falconry that I would rather spend $995 dollars on. I guess that's the "old fart" coming to the surface.

Only a poor craftsman blames his tools. I do not think I'm missing the point. This is just a tool that will change a lot of things. Were you in the same boat when telemetry first came out and people said we would be poorer falconers for it to be relying on a beeping box? Some truth to that but it doesn't have to be so. It is the same with this. I can't think of anyone believing telemetry didn't revolutionize falconry. This is a step up from even that in many ways so how could it not? Falconers that had practiced falconry before telemetry probably didn't want to spend money on it either when it first came out To each their own.

[xamorel]

Ledesma, Microsensory, Bymaps, Martin Systems. Not saying they aren't safe, just too big for me to want to put on a bird of mine.

Just wait to see the new Microsensory RTS Mini ;-)

[xamorel]

Hi Tony,

Yes I know that, like we discussed it by phone yesterday.

But as I told you, size and weight have been considerably reduced.

Hope to see you soon!

[Captain Gizmo]

In my opinion it is in poor taste to make posts about an alternative brand of product on a dedicated website. No points for style!

Orlando (Andrew Wernhaart) has started a thread for the Microsystems product under the general Telemetry heading. Such things should be posted there, or start a new thread.

In the meantime a short round of applause to MRT for bringing an obviously well thought out set of choices and tradeoffs to their offering in the GPS locator tag market that may well be better suited to the needs of North American falconry.

[RLBagley]

Question: “Why does the Marshall Radio GPS not take advantage of the mobile network? Wouldn’t that give it unlimited range (theoretically)?”

Well, yes, in fact. And over the last few years there’ve been several mobile network-based transmitters developed and already out there and they’ve done a good job in many ways.

But we asked ourselves, “Why is it that nobody uses them?”

Falconers in Europe and the Gulf who have tried SMS-based designs and don’t like them tell us it’s a combination of things:

1- They are very large in size and weight, so they must use a backpack
2- You have to stop and send text requests and get intermittent updates, some don't come for several minutes, if at all
3- Even in supposedly good areas, there are dead-zones in service where nothing can be sent or received
4- Ones they were using had awkward implementations of mapping, if any at all
5- Case designs are not up to the expected standard (not crushproof, waterproof, etc.)

So we thought: “How about we design and build something exciting that falconers would actually want to use? We’ve been at this game 18 years now, and think we know what that just might be!”

For this to be widely accepted, we knew it would have to be much much smaller, and ideally, the same size as regular falconry transmitter so it could be tail or leg-mounted in proven waterproof case design. It would need a full-featured but simple mapping application for mobile devices (first iOS, then Android) to which live tracks could be laid down from real-time data streaming, another part of the equation not possible through texting or available to falconers up till now.

And after a lot of effort it worked but what we didn’t anticipate was how our whole paradigm shifted: we discovered through a season of contant field testing was that this was no longer to be understood as just a recovery device, it’s actually an amazing extension of your vision in real-time as it is happening. And that’s what changed everything for us as users. It was addicting.

So when we said in the announcement video: "does not depend on mobile service," to us that is an important feature, not a limitation. Our customers hunt in areas around the world where mobile service is intermittent or non-existent and it cannot be counted on for a reliable live-steaming GPS experience. This design works all the time, anywhere on earth, both in developed countries as well as the remote regions our customers go to hunt.

All these goals have been achieved with a "direct-connect design," so that's what we chose to pursue. As the first wave of falconers are able to experience it this fall, just as we have last season, we’ll see if they also get addicted and we are right in our strategy.

RB

(this is not to say that a mobile-based design for a 2-4 month hacking transmitter will never be done someday, as that could really be cool)

[Tanner]

Ha ha- Robert, you cant lay a landmine like that last sentence and not follow up. Indeed!! Can you imagine what that does for a hack if the lifetime can extend to say a month? Imagine trapping the bird of your dreams (as far as lineage is concerned) as a passage bird. Mind bomb.

[RLBagley]

Ha ha- Robert, you cant lay a landmine like that last sentence and not follow up. Indeed!! Can you imagine what that does for a hack if the lifetime can extend to say a month? Imagine trapping the bird of your dreams (as far as lineage is concerned) as a passage bird. Mind bomb.

To me that has been the impossible dream out there for some time: a true passage hybrid of your choice? What a concept, yes.

[BestBeagler]

Couldn't you just pay a couple of thousand and get a transmitter like that? Just like Island Girl has. Put a Holohill on it as well for close up tracking.

[rkumetz]

Couldn't you just pay a couple of thousand and get a transmitter like that? Just like Island Girl has. Put a Holohill on it as well for close up tracking.

Her transmitter sends its data through a satellite that you can't use.

[BestBeagler]

Her transmitter sends its data through a satellite that you can't use.

So this wouldn't work?
http://www.microwavetelemetry.com/bi...gosGPS_17g.cfm

If i understand this you pay a $30 a month data fee click on the "price" link on this page to see more http://www.microwavetelemetry.com/bird/GSM.cfm

[xamorel]

Hi Robert,
You are completely right about the benefits of real time information through radio, very useful when no mobile service is available. It is also an incredible training tool. I use it now since fall 2012 and it changes completely our ways to train our birds.
Just a little thing: not all existing systems are solely gsm based as you assume, some of them also offer real-time information through radio together with the phone feature.
About the phone network, a question: how does the map app work when there is no mobile service is available to load the map: is there a kind of memory to have the map available if no mobile service is available?
Thank you

[RLBagley]

Hi Robert,
You are completely right about the benefits of real time information through radio, very useful when no mobile service is available. It is also an incredible training tool. I use it now since fall 2012 and it changes completely our ways to train our birds.
Just a little thing: not all existing systems are solely gsm based as you assume, some of them also offer real-time information through radio together with the phone feature.
About the phone network, a question: how does the map app work when there is no mobile service is available to load the map: is there a kind of memory to have the map available if no mobile service is available?
Thank you

Yes, there is.

The user can preload the maps of his/her hunting areas in advance with a Cache Tool to have them at all times.

[FredFogg]

I am going to be extra good this year because I want Santa to bring me this system!!!! So freakin cool!