Electronic 3-186 A

[raptrlvr]

Well, today I received the envelope from NM Game and Fish that was supposed to have the band in it. Unfortunately, there was no band in it. Because the band is not flat, the machines that sort the mail at the post office pushed the band out the side of the envelope. The envelope should have been marked non-machineable, but, it wasn't. I retired from the post office, so, I know that the mail that goes through the OCR machines must be flat because of the high rate of mail that goes through the machine per second. I contacted NMG&F and another band is on its way. I haven't even started flying this bird free and its being re-banded.

[Lowachi]

for anyone interested, site still not functioning

[Hawkmom]

Certified mail with a return receipt will hold up in a court of law. It is the most recognized method of sending important documents. I've taken the time and have done it for decades. It is still to this day the best method for sending traceable documentation.

[COMEAUX]

I called the FWS Migratory bird permit office in NM Monday,talked to Katy she is the only one there now.She said the guy handling the 3-186A forms retired and she does not know IF any one is going to replace him. She told me she would contact the main office and let me know what to do,did not hear from her so called this morning and she said to wait until the site is back up that they are aware of the problem and I will not get into any trouble. I got her to sent me an email stating this to cover my ass! I forward this email to the Texas office,but she is out until Monday. Here is the email she sent.

[goshawkr]

I know this is confusing for a lot of people because our interest is in hunting with hawks, and not figuring out the nuances of red tape. Particularly since the red tape changed about 10 years ago, and since we all know we can loose our ability to hunt with hawks if we trip up in the red tape.

But what Katie said in that email to Chris Comeaux is right on the money, and it applies to all the USFWS.

Let me sum it up -

For falconry - the only agency you need to worry about is the State/Tribe/Territory that issued you your falconry permit. They are the ones that administer, regulate and oversee falconry. Yes, there are still federal rules, and the feds can in some situations enforce them - but you answer to the state and the state alone. So during this outage, contact your state and do whatever they tell you. Although you should also bear in mind, the state is responsible by law for providing data to the USFS, so if your state asks you to send stuff to them, I would suggest you politely remind them that this is their job.

The advice to have those instructions documented is still very much applicable. As is the advice to keep proof that you followed those instructions, along with your copy of the 3-186a. If anyone from the USFWS ever questions what you did, you can politely refer them to the state. You are innocent until proven guilty, but you still have to be able to counter the "proof" of guilt from the fish cops with something more than a smile.

For Breeding - The old two tier system still applies. Or I should say it can. In my state, for example, there are no state level permits or paperwork, we just deal directly with the USFWS. If your a breeder that needs to file a 3-186a, you still will need to contact your regional USFWS office and ask how they want to handle the outage, in addition to whatever your state wants you to do.

[jclarkson]

Hello,
I have been trying to fill out some 186-a forms on the USFWS online reporting system, it keeps saying the page I'm looking for is unavailable. Is anyone else experiencing difficulties with that site? I'm just wondering if it's something wrong on my end. Thanks.

[460shooter]

Yeah Jon, there is an issue. There is another thread on this in the "general falconry discussion" area. Basically they are saying to either email or snail mail the form in, then of course I'd keep a copy for your personal records.

[SkyRider]

Jon,

Here is the post Paul referenced

Hope this helps. It's being used as sort of an "Is it up yet?" thread now. But it's got some good advice on how to mail in your form to make sure you're covered.

[jclarkson]

ok thanks guys, I'm glad it's not just me I thought I was going crazy. I will just mail in my copies like before.

[COMEAUX]

OK I got an email from the Texas office today,so I'm waiting for the site to come back up

[FredFogg]

OK I got an email from the Texas office today,so I'm waiting for the site to come back up

God forbid if a state would accept paper forms and then manually enter them in once the site is back up, that would mean the would have to do something!

[dboyrollz76]

God forbid if a state would accept paper forms and then manually enter them in once the site is back up, that would mean the would have to do something!

Our state director, told us to mail in a paper 186-a.

[FredFogg]

Our state director, told us to mail in a paper 186-a.

Goes to show everyone that they better check with their state!

Also, I sure hope everyone printed out a copy of each 3-186 they filed on the federal system since its inception because I have a strong suspicion that when the system comes back up, the old data will be mysteriously lossed.

[rkumetz]

God forbid if a state would accept paper forms and then manually enter them in once the site is back up, that would mean the would have to do something!

Fred you are a curmudgeon.

[SkyRider]

Fred you are a curmudgeon.

Hey! I know that word

[dboyrollz76]

Goes to show everyone that they better check with their state!

Also, I sure hope everyone printed out a copy of each 3-186 they filed on the federal system since its inception because I have a strong suspicion that when the system comes back up, the old data will be mysteriously lossed.

I've been pondering this for about a month. The Obama administration handed a lot of stuff back over to be controlled at a state level. Then you here that the feds are no longer funding inforcement of the MBTA. This leaves me to wonder if the online sight will ever come back up. If this just isn't some discreet way of fullfiling the change to hand everything back to the state. If it was a big concern of usfws usfws wouldnt you think that they would have someone to fill this position, befor said person retired, left or whatever the case may be. Just seems to me they would be a little better organized than this. If it was of importance, that position would have been filled by now.

[Ducksanddogs]

Montana said to fill out the MT-186a and mail it in to Mike. He'll update everyone when the site is working again.

[FredFogg]

Fred you are a curmudgeon.

Actually, I'm not!

[Hawkmom]

OK everyone. Fill in the form, Date it. Keep a copy for your records. I am still sending mine in to FWC (certified mail, return receipt). And simply do not depend on the 'cloud' or whatever they call the internet nowdays to keep your records. A paper copy in your files will hold up in case of a dispute. That way you are fully in compliance.

I know that the USFWS site is full of problems, before it stopped working. It kept on telling me to use Internet Explorer, which does not work with my Macbook Pro. Why they kept that damn obsolete program for the keeping records is beyond my comprehension, when Firefox is current for all computers and FREE!!!!

[Lowachi]

got my return requests back... copies on file in 2locations. Ready to go

[dboyrollz76]

I heard yesterday from Kansas Fish and wildlife, that the filing site most likely is gone for good! Anyone else hear this. USFWS no longer enforcing the MBTA and its all on the states now.

[Saluqi]

I heard yesterday from Kansas Fish and wildlife, that the filing site most likely is gone for good! Anyone else hear this. USFWS no longer enforcing the MBTA and its all on the states now.

Not true, because it is specified in the federal falconry regulations the electronic database will be resurrected/reconstructed. Don't hold your breath on when this might happen.

"(2) Reporting. (i) The State, tribe, or territory must work with us to ensure that the electronic 3-186A reporting system (http://permits.fws.gov/186A) for reporting take, transfers, and loss of falconry birds is fully operational for residents of that jurisdiction."

This comes directly from the USFWS nationwide raptor coordinator.

[goshawkr]

Not true, because it is specified in the federal falconry regulations the electronic database will be resurrected/reconstructed. Don't hold your breath on when this might happen.

"(2) Reporting. (i) The State, tribe, or territory must work with us to ensure that the electronic 3-186A reporting system (http://permits.fws.gov/186A) for reporting take, transfers, and loss of falconry birds is fully operational for residents of that jurisdiction."

This comes directly from the USFWS nationwide raptor coordinator.

True, but the USFWS has never had to follow its own rules in the past. Why should they start now?

[rkumetz]

True, but the USFWS has never had to follow its own rules in the past. Why should they start now?

Geoff is on the money. There is no time specified for making things work or fixing them so they can just say that it is their intention to fix it and go back to playing government employee strip poker or whatever they do.

[FredFogg]

I am blown away that they don't have a backup of the database that they can't reload. Sure, maybe a weeks worth of entries would be lost but to say the database became corrupted and they can't recover it? Seems like I remember them being able to miraculously recover emails off a long ago server in the news! Give me a backup of the database and I will create something better than the crappy system they had.

[Captain Gizmo]

Fred,

Don't worry about it too much. The NSA has copies of all of it, they just don't want to talk about it.

Regards,
Thomas of the Delusions (we hope)

[Ken S.]

I'm sitting here wondering what the heck could've happened that has the whole system down for so long. Or what's so hard about having people fill out an online form and submit it to a database? I've been in IT for over 20yrs, over 15yrs has been doing web development and custom application programming, so I have some experience in this area. I don't consider this as a very difficult system to build and support, considering it only has to service a few thousand users in total and typically won't have many people logging changes at the same time. I feel like I could write that application in a few days, and it would probably run for the next 10 years without having to touch it again. If the application server ever crashed (which would be maybe once or twice per year at most), a simple restart would take less than 5 minutes and it would be back again. And don't say it's about $$ because it probably would cost $10/month or less to have it hosted somewhere and monitored, backed up, etc. I can even think of a few commercially available software packages that could be used and avoid it being custom at all. Oh well... seems like a missed opportunity.

[rkumetz]

I'm sitting here wondering what the heck could've happened that has the whole system down for so long. Or what's so hard about having people fill out an online form and submit it to a database? I've been in IT for over 20yrs, over 15yrs has been doing web development and custom application programming, so I have some experience in this area. I don't consider this as a very difficult system to build and support, considering it only has to service a few thousand users in total and typically won't have many people logging changes at the same time. I feel like I could write that application in a few days, and it would probably run for the next 10 years without having to touch it again. If the application server ever crashed (which would be maybe once or twice per year at most), a simple restart would take less than 5 minutes and it would be back again. And don't say it's about $$ because it probably would cost $10/month or less to have it hosted somewhere and monitored, backed up, etc. I can even think of a few commercially available software packages that could be used and avoid it being custom at all. Oh well... seems like a missed opportunity.

Federal agencies love to use contractors to do stuff like this. It is likely that the "responsible party" kept everyone in the dark in the name of job security and then found something more lucrative to do. Of course he was also probably annoyed with his employer so he didn't leave any notes on how anything worked......

I sometimes wonder if the incompetents at USFWS outnumber those who are just there to manipulate the system to further their own agenda. It is a toss up.

[Saluqi]

Federal agencies love to use contractors to do stuff like this. It is likely that the "responsible party" kept everyone in the dark in the name of job security and then found something more lucrative to do. Of course he was also probably annoyed with his employer so he didn't leave any notes on how anything worked......

I sometimes wonder if the incompetents at USFWS outnumber those who are just there to manipulate the system to further their own agenda. It is a toss up.

Actually the guy who did the programming, Ramesh, is a USFWS employee. He was transferred to another division leaving his former post vacant. This system was beta tested in several states before it was rolled out nationwide. NM was one of the states and I made some comments, as did others here, what are you going to do? It's like the weather...

[dce21b]

I filled out three forms. One for me, one for the state and one for the federal regional office. I sent both certified mailed with a received receipt and I kept the one for my own personal records.

This was my first time doing this seeing how I am in my first year as an apprentice. The advice I was given I saw on NAFA website.

Either way I have myself covered showing it was sent and received and I have my own copy. My state's coordinator said that should be fine.

[dboyrollz76]

Actually the guy who did the programming, Ramesh, is a USFWS employee. He was transferred to another division leaving his former post vacant. This system was beta tested in several states before it was rolled out nationwide. NM was one of the states and I made some comments, as did others here, what are you going to do? It's like the weather...

This is what I had heard from our state director, the site isn't broke down. It's just shut off. No one to maintain it.

[goshawkr]

I'm sitting here wondering what the heck could've happened that has the whole system down for so long. Or what's so hard about having people fill out an online form and submit it to a database? I've been in IT for over 20yrs, over 15yrs has been doing web development and custom application programming, so I have some experience in this area. I don't consider this as a very difficult system to build and support, considering it only has to service a few thousand users in total and typically won't have many people logging changes at the same time. I feel like I could write that application in a few days, and it would probably run for the next 10 years without having to touch it again. If the application server ever crashed (which would be maybe once or twice per year at most), a simple restart would take less than 5 minutes and it would be back again. And don't say it's about $$ because it probably would cost $10/month or less to have it hosted somewhere and monitored, backed up, etc. I can even think of a few commercially available software packages that could be used and avoid it being custom at all. Oh well... seems like a missed opportunity.

The only part about that system that makes it touchy to build or support are the very serious federal legal requirements for rention of records (although several high profile cases recently have proven those are more bark than bite...) and the need for it to be able to interface with 49 state systems. However, like you Ken I have been in the industry for 20 years and I could get both a solution to both of those problems identified in a single hour long meeting, and leave plenty of time leftover to have a fun nerf war with my co-workers.

I do hope that whoever takes a crack at fixing this will remember the data that is being protected is fairly harmless if any hacker runs off with it and not require such ridiculous security.

[Mitch W]

The Department of wildlife in Oklahoma sent a email out stating that they had heard from the federal agency see below.
We are working on revamping the on-line reporting system, but it will be some time before it is available. In the meantime your falconers should send you a paper form. There is no need to send a copy to the service. They can find the form here: https://www.fws.gov/forms/3-186a.pdf

I will let you know when the new reporting system is available. With any luck it should be in 6 to 8 weeks.

[460shooter]

I was just sent an email by our falconry coordinator in Denver that we are now supposed to send in paper copies to the feds. I had already done this, through certified mail. I did it again anyway, and gave them the tracking number and time stamp from the first time it was delivered to them. I'm sure they've lost it by now anyway....

[GreenHawk]

Strange,
About a month ago I sent my paperwork to both feds and state. Got my signed receipts back about a week later, and a week after that got a letter from the feds saying that they did not track birds anymore with my paperwork and a printed excerpt from the Fed Regs that handles reporting. Wonder if I need to resend mine just in case, or if it is only a regional thing?