Bam Bam 2010 male coopers hawk

[jeffandheidi]

Joe, when he shows back up in the evening, are you calling him down to the lure? And what happens when he doesn't show up? Do you track him down with telemetry and then call him down when you find him? I am in an even more rural area but was afraid to tame hack a coops but I might give it a try if this works out. Although I have a convenience store 2 houses up from me that worries me if a bird would go up there and land on someones car while they are filling up! LOL

Joe: apologies for jumping in on your thread but I have been dealing with this exact problem.

My male coopers is about the same age as yours, yesterday was day 8 of hack. Yesterday he was an hour and a half late for the afternoon feeding time so I had to track him down. He was very nervous, in fact the first time he came to the lure he landed about 15 feet away and flew back up to the tree. He finally came back down and once he started eating I was able to walk up and clip onto his jesses. This was the first time he has shown any fear, my guess is the bottle rockets had him spooked but I'm not sure. Just to be safe he is staying inside today for lots of socialization. Haven't decided yet if he is going back outside tomorrow or if I am going to continue as a traditional eyas, with extra baggies and walking fields once he penns.

For comparison he was 15 days old when I took him from the nest, and the 4th dark tail band is just coming out of the tubes now.

-Jeff

[keitht]

Fred: If you look you can see that each is feeding off a lure. Since both have more food than they can eat, they don't fight over the food.

Whether or not they will be flown together is still up in the air?

Jeff: At 15 days old, you are not dealing with a true imprint. I would suspect that you will be dealing with fear issues as opposed to aggression issues that you might encounter in a younger taken bird. I've taken a few gosses at day 15 and they were a far different bird than those taken much younger like the 3 birds in this thread.

[sevristh]

Keith,

Thanks for the video! They are looking great! I am really looking forward to all your (and Joe's) adventures!

[REYNALDO]

Cool video. Ok thanks for the reply about the transmitter. Another question. You guys said that if they kill...the hack is over. If they r outside and doing there own thing so many hours a day how can you know that the bird killed something or not?

[keitht]

I don't want to dominate Joe's thread but I'll respond. Joe can chime in and agree or disagree.

Traditional hacking has been going on for hundreds of years. Woodford, in A manual of falconry states the traditional wisdom regarding when to take a bird up:

"When, after three or four weeks, usually less in enclosed country, a hawk is observed to have failed to turn up at feeding time more often than once- especially if the two absences are consecutive - it is time to catch it up."

So one kill doesn't necessarily end the hack. Regularly being able to provide for himself does.

Also Jeff: I hope I didn't sound negative about the 15 day thing. I didn't mean to. Some people prefer later taken chicks. It's a trade-off in regards to behavior.

[sevristh]

Cool video. Ok thanks for the reply about the transmitter. Another question. You guys said that if they kill...the hack is over. If they r outside and doing there own thing so many hours a day how can you know that the bird killed something or not?

Also, to more exactly answer the question, if you are weighing the bird each day, and weighing it's intake, it should be obvious when it has eaten something at some point during the day. Just like when your RT sneaks a mouse in the mew at night and is high for the hunt the following day!

[jeffandheidi]

Also Jeff: I hope I didn't sound negative about the 15 day thing. I didn't mean to. Some people prefer later taken chicks. It's a trade-off in regards to behavior.

Keith: No problem . I would have preferred a younger chick but since it was later in the spring and he just sat there it was decided to give him the same treatment. If he had acted fearful in the nest I wouldn't have taken him at all.

After consulting with a wiser and more experienced accipiter guru my bird is back outside preening in a tree. My neighborhood is similar to Joe's except that I'm on the edge of a subdivision next to woods. In my previous post i was referring to my neighbors bottle rockets, not mine.

I'm curious to see if completing the tame hack is going to smooth out or magnify some of the fear issues.

-Jeff

[moredtailboy]

From what I can see its not to smooth out fear usually its more to smooth out handling error and to muscle them up.......also for some reason or another they take better care of there feathers after being hacked and most doesn't scream. I have been logging even better in my journal at home attempting to figure out why this is true and what actually dose come from tame hacking your bird. At the end of this whole ordeal I promise to let every one know the conclusion I come to and for what thats worth I hope it helps some one. Me being as young as I am I am doing my damnedest to contribute something.

[FredFogg]

From what I can see its not to smooth out fear usually its more to smooth out handling error and to muscle them up.......also for some reason or another they take better care of there feathers after being hacked and most doesn't scream. I have been logging even better in my journal at home attempting to figure out why this is true and what actually dose come from tame hacking your bird. At the end of this whole ordeal I promise to let every one know the conclusion I come to and for what thats worth I hope it helps some one. Me being as young as I am I am doing my damnedest to contribute something.

That is very interesting Joe! I wonder if one pulled two cooper hawks at the same time, imprinted them in 2 seperate rooms, tame hacked one and did the traditional imprint method with the other, what the differences would be? Hmmm, I might try that in a few years. LOL

[moredtailboy]

well I just think that the birds that are hacked are going to be more easy to handle and less will bother them.

[moredtailboy]

well I have hit a mile stone today the bird normaly stayed right in between the neighbors behind me and the house's in front today he went across the road and up the block.

[goshawks00]

Just like when your RT sneaks a mouse in the mew at night and is high for the hunt the following day!

Are you sure it was a mouse, to make him to high the next day.... Maybe it was a muskrat!!

[sevristh]

To be honest, I never did figure out WHAT it was... But there were about two or three days this past season where that happened to me. And I am one of those people anal enough to want to have their RT within a 5-10g window each day!

[moredtailboy]

Enen after eating almost a whole quail he cased a grackle all the way down the block right on it's tail.

[moredtailboy]

363g after being fed up..................he came down on the ground about 4pm and ran behind my neighbor cutting his grass, not sure why he did but was very friendly to my neighbor all of them seem to like the bird so far. He killed a baggie today after being coaxed I think he is starting to pen because he is getting more excited when he is indoors friday will be 21 days for hacking and if he is hard penned then I will start hunting saturday morning.

[moredtailboy]

I think I am making head way with no mantling and vocalazation the only time he makes noise is when he is looking for me at feeding time. The mantling is for about 30sec then this how he eats even on baggies.







this is how he spends some of his day

[moredtailboy]

The hack is over...................Soon I hope to be hunting for now now its just baggies set fup in a hunting senioro to get the bird killing with high level of confendece while redusing the weight.

[sevristh]

Joe,

What made you decide to end the hack?

[moredtailboy]

He sprained his wing

[sevristh]

Dang. Sorry to hear that. Does it seem pretty serious? (drooping, etc?)

[cbdfox]

Sorry to hear about the Sprain Joe.

I hope nothing bad happened while at Hack?

I assume he will recover from your comment about baggies. Keep us up to date.

[moredtailboy]

hes doing just fine dosnt even seem to bother him now i kept him in a darken box for a day and 1/2 and then he now he seems fine.

[moredtailboy]

what is the high level tibiting hooding method could some one exsplain in depth how to go about this.

[cbdfox]

Joe
I have never practiced it and someone please correct me if I am wrong.... But I believe it is the Hood training method where you Tid bit the Bird up high at head level while hood training.

I believe this is done by putting the tid bit -in the hood- and letting the hawk take it thus conditioning the bird to associate it's beak in the hood as a good thing. The intent is to allow the hood to be placed on the bird later as a natural next step without creating a negative association.

I have only seen this done and assume this is what your referencing. High level tid biting can be done under other circumstances as well. But it is specifically offering a tid bit at head or above head level to the hawk. The idea is to take the feet and eating at the feet out of the equation.

There are two problems with these methods that should be considered. Some Falconers reason that food shouldn't be involved in Hood training because it teach's the bird to expect food while or when hooded. Behavior such as biting while hooded or tearing at the hood itself is a risk.

the other problem is that when high level tid bitting is done it often includes your hand. The hawks impulse is to grab you with it's feet or bite. Plus the tid bit isn't visible to the bird until it's offered so the hawk is constantly looking at your hand for food. Some speculate it encourage's the hawk to grab you.

I am sure someone else could elaborate better. But that's how I understand it.

[sevristh]

This website explains it in detail...

http://www.americanbirdabatementserv...idbitting2.htm

[cbdfox]

Dave
Thanks for sharing that. He clearly has developed a good system. The video of the Goshawk -not attacking his hand- is pretty cool. I never would have thought he could do that.

[moredtailboy]

OK well bam was 297 yesterday so hes making his way down. We went hunting with mike mcdermitt yesterday and but didnt connect but he did yesterday and mike said his manners and behavior is perfect so that was a nice thing to hear. Im gunna bring him down a few grams today to get his responce a little better.

[frootdog]

We went hunting with mike mcdermitt yesterday and but didnt connect but he did yesterday

Huh?

[sevristh]

Krys,
It's a space time continuum thing, you wouldn't understand...

[bobpayne]

Well it helps when you have a some one thats been around coopers hawks since the end of the ice age. The knowlege that keith offers is priceless but I will say im trying to bring him to the dark side on stuff like hacking and backpack mounting transmitters that I havnt been able to convince him of yet.



Today went well after about 5 min of desiding my bird took a quail it was nice but he was possessive at first so I sat there and waited it out and he calmed down and stop mantling.

No doubt Joe that the man is older tha the dirt you are standing on. Treat him with respect and if you are lucky and he's not too grouchy he may do the same.

Keith, don't let Joe drive, ever, and you might live long enough to see all your hair turn grey. Best of luck with them guys!

[moredtailboy]

Very funny Bob im sorry I dont drive like a old women like you. what are you flying this year, when are you coming down to STL for some hawking with us.

[keitht]

Bob: That's quite the assumption you're making there - that my hair is not gray now.

[bobpayne]

Bob: That's quite the assumption you're making there - that my hair is not gray now.

I will try not to make too many assumptions when you are concerned. I've been down that slope b4. Good luck you two.

[bobpayne]

Very funny Bob im sorry I dont drive like a old women like you. what are you flying this year, when are you coming down to STL for some hawking with us.

Ouch Joe.....Been flying Aplos again this summer, hoping for a hen gos in a couple weeks, Joe since the move to Kansas, I will mostly spend the 5 hrs in the truck heading west. Look forward to seeing you in Dodge again in November,

[moredtailboy]

took my first double tonight he is turning on slowly and very pleased that im starting to figure out how to manage his kinks.