Releasing imprints

[Todd Brown]

This thread is very interesting.....I voted no (err on the side of caution).

My EMRT is an imprint and I think he would be ok if released but I don't know how he would behave if he were starving.

As stated earlier, he was gone for 4 months and appears to have done well....no reports of any attacks on people or small cats or dogs.He's never been aggressive toward anyone that I've seen. A territory scream at the most.....usually, when he doesn't like someone he just kind of hunts on his own and doesn't respond well.

As few of us as there are. We don't have a lot of political power. The last thing we need is bad PR.

As unpredictable as this sport is even in the best of situations(We've all had our birds do something unexpected).

Why invite unneeded PR by releasing an imprint?

[Jimmy]

Why invite unneeded PR by releasing an imprint?

Why assume there would be any PR?

[Todd Brown]

We know that imprints behave differently than passage birds toward people.(I'm sure there are exceptions)

I don't know for sure but I would think thats one of the reasons an apprentice can't have one.

Let's say that a known imprint was released and it killed someone's pet kitten or small dog right in front of them or grabbed someone in the face.

I could see where some bad PR might come from this.

[JRedig]

We know that imprints behave differently than passage birds toward people.(I'm sure there are exceptions)

I don't know for sure but I would think thats one of the reasons an apprentice can't have one.

Let's say that a known imprint was released and it killed someone's pet kitten or small dog right in front of them or grabbed someone in the face.

I could see where some bad PR might come from this.

Every year many many baby raptors are found by people (not falconers), raised and released. How could it be proven that it was a falconry bird or related to our sport in any way?

[jfseaman]

Why assume there would be any PR?

It appears that bad PR will find an group much more easily than good PR.

[jfseaman]

Every year many many baby raptors are found by people (not falconers), raised and released. How could it be proven that it was a falconry bird or related to our sport in any way?

I believe that some portion of bad relations between falconry and rehab can be traced to 'falconry' birds with problems in a permanently unreleasable state. Whether they really are ex-falconry birds released in an inappropriate fashion doesn't matter, it still is used against falconry. Is it right/proper/moral/ethical for rehab to make assumptions about birds with problems originating from human interaction to be from licensed falconers, NO. Doesn't stop them as 'bad blood' is passed from rehabber to rehabber same as it is from falconer to falconer.

Kitty, you don't count because your both

I would error on the side of caution and think in terms of 'it could happen'. I know that position can be taken to far but with imprints, I support it.

[Todd Brown]

Well...I don't know for sure that it can be traced back to a falconer but that still doesn't mean that we should release imprints.

We have a responsibility not only to our hawks but to the falconry community.

Do regs require you to band a released bird? This is not a baited BC.....I don't know the answer but it seems I've heard this somewhere.

[sevristh]

I believe that some portion of bad relations between falconry and rehab can be traced to 'falconry' birds with problems in a permanently unreleasable state. Whether they really are ex-falconry birds released in an inappropriate fashion doesn't matter, it still is used against falconry. Is it right/proper/moral/ethical for rehab to make assumptions about birds with problems originating from human interaction to be from licensed falconers, NO. Doesn't stop them as 'bad blood' is passed from rehabber to rehabber same as it is from falconer to falconer.

Fred,
Am I correct in reading through your post and coming to the conclusion that you agree we can't change their minds, but that we should restrict ourselves anyway? If the majority of the birds that are found (and I would think this might be the case) are ones that were raised by unknowing/ignorant people that found a baby bird, fed it, and released it, then how will our actions have an impact one way or the other? If anything, falconers as a majority are probably far more likely to release an imprint as far from people as they can, in an environment where the bird will have plenty of game available.

What it all comes down to, though, is that this subject of whether to release or not is just as "un-winnable" as the one about anthropomorphizing. The only way to prove anything would be to do a radio tracking study on a large number of released imprints. Even at that point, there is a very large number of variables such as imprinting technique, etc.

[Jimmy]

Here's a news flash....... imprints are released every year. Both intentionally, and unintentionally. I'd like to see an example of this bad PR people are worried about, and not some "let's say" scenario. You could have that same scenario with a captive imprint or a passage bird, but I don't hear anyone saying not to fly their birds because of that slim chance.....

[FredFogg]

Fred feed them up real good, and see if they like you enough to be with you.

Barry, all of my current birds are as fat as ticks right now. So they are all fed up, doesn't seem to have changed how they interact with me. I dare to say that an underfed bird is more likely to show you the bad side of emotions than an overfed bird. LOL

But then again, I am talking about birds in a breeding project, not hunting birds. Totally different scenerio.

[jfseaman]

Dave,

For me this isn't an argument to win or not, it's a discussion of the pitfalls, merits and implications of releasing imprints.

It is my belief from limited interaction with rehab that 'they' already believe 'them' to be lost or released falconry birds. I would prefer to avoid supporting hundreds of falsehoods with one factual incident of an imprint falconry bird released for 'them' to anthropomorpize over.

I support your right to practice falconry your way. I hope you support my right to practice falconry my way.

Besides, I really enjoy making birds so why would I release perfectly good genes?

I do feel that with the powerful American falconry knowledge, the reason to imprint is breeding with some exceptions for accipiters.

[FredFogg]

Is it possible for me to find un-mated 'adults', yup. Without an actual count, I believe from my observations that it is probably about 1%. In other words, for every 50 successful pairs I can find 1 un-paired adult.

Is it possible for me to find mated, unsuccessful pairs, of course but I've not 'seen' it in my observations.

On the vineyard last year there were 4 adult pairs of redtails and 16 juveniles. Same vineyard the year before there were 3 pairs and 12 juveniles. By my house there is a pair about every 2 miles. Every one of them fledged young every year I've lived here.

My data is my professional observations. That is what I do for a living, observe birds. When I do something for a job, I get good at it or get out. You can choose to dispute my observations or my credentials but it would only lead in an unproductive direction.

Where I live, the redtails do not migrate. After the young birds are hunting for them selves, the adults will exhibit courtship flights. I see this every year. In prosperous times like the past 3, this occurs even if the young of the year have not left the area.

Ok Fred, I am confused. You only view 1% un-matched adults. You stated 4 pairs, 16 young seen on the vineyard. Did 14 of those 16 all pair up or not survive since you state they don't migrate. I just can't see only 1% of the raptors in your area are un-paired, that is way too low a figure. And I don't believe you can base your figures on just your observation. We tend to look for things we are looking for and don't observe what we aren't looking for. Are you looking for un-paired raptors and how can you prove it is a paired raptor. I saw 3 raptors, all adults on a sign yesterday. Menage a trois , I think not but possible. So most likely one was an un-paired adult. But there are other times when I see 2 adults on a sign, are they a pair, possibly, but that doesn't mean they actually are. Raptors tolerate each other as long as there is enough food around. Using visual observations just don't cut it in my book.

[goshawks00]

Barry, all of my current birds are as fat as ticks right now. So they are all fed up, doesn't seem to have changed how they interact with me. I dare to say that an underfed bird is more likely to show you the bad side of emotions than an overfed bird. LOL

But then again, I am talking about birds in a breeding project, not hunting birds. Totally different scenerio.

Fred it doesn't matter, now that they are all fed up , and in breeding mnode, open your mews and let them fly around , and see if they continue to come back every day... They do love ya don't they

[FredFogg]

Fred it doesn't matter, now that they are all fed up , and in breeding mnode, open your mews and let them fly around , and see if they continue to come back every day... They do love ya don't they

So a bird that flys away can't show you emotions before it flew away? Apples and oranges here! This discussion is getting kind of silly. To say birds or any animal doesn't have emotions is a bit silly to me. But then again, humans tend to think we are the only ones capable of doing things other animals can't because we are so smart. What a joke? Unfortunately, it is our intelligence (or lack of using it properly) that leads to discussions like this. As has been said before, folks are going to believe what they want and all the discussions in the world most likely won't change their view and I believe raptors have emotions and I base it on my observations of the birds I interact with.

[goshawks00]

No it isn't all that hard, can they have emotions, maybe, doesn't really mean anything... The point is if you think they are emotionally attached to you... do as I said open your chamber doors and see just how attached they are... Doesn't matter if it's an imprint or not, you will soon see the light.....BTW I did lose an imprint once for a month and she was taken up 5 foot from where she was lost... Do I think she 'came back' because she loved me... haha hardly...she knew what a lure was and can in to it for food.

[FredFogg]

No it isn't all that hard, can they have emotions, maybe, doesn't really mean anything... The point is if you think they are emotionally attached to you... do as I said open your chamber doors and see just how attached they are... Doesn't matter if it's an imprint or not, you will soon see the light.....BTW I did lose an imprint once for a month and she was taken up 5 foot from where she was lost... Do I think she 'came back' because she loved me... haha hardly...she knew what a lure was and can in to it for food.

What you aren't getting Barry is sometimes the bird can show emotions but that emotion doesn't have to mean it wants to be with you. Hate is an emotion, opening that door and the bird getting out of there could be because it hates you. It isn't all or nothing. You keep saying the bird doesn't love me, who is talking about love. If the bird shows me a little affection by rubbing its head against my hand and making noises that sound like it is comfortable and enjoying itself, I call that some type of emotion. Sure, I open the door and it flys out, it might not come back but that doesn't erase the emotion it just showed me. Again, you believe what you want, I will believe what I want and the world will continue to turn.

And with all that said, I would turn loose an imprint in a minute if I felt it was the right bird and the right situation.

[Todd Brown]

Well, I will admit that my EMRT didn't get into trouble while he was gone 4 months...somebody heard his bells....thats how I got him back and he was in an area that had lots of people around....25 miles south of San Francisco.

I sure worried about him a lot though.

[MrBill]

I don't know how far we want to take this conversation, but . . . .

>To say birds or any animal doesn't have emotions is a bit silly to me.

Fred, So we have a clear understanding of what you are saying, what emotions do you feel raptors demonstrate, based upon your experience? Thanks.

Bill Boni

[FredFogg]

I don't know how far we want to take this conversation, but . . . .

>To say birds or any animal doesn't have emotions is a bit silly to me.

Fred, So we have a clear understanding of what you are saying, what emotions do you feel raptors demonstrate, based upon your experience? Thanks.

Bill Boni

Bill, first tell me what you consider emotions (fear, anger, happiness, etc.?) and I will tell you the ones I believe I have experienced.

[MrBill]

Fred,

Just go on-line and search for emotions. You will find a bunch of them, more than I could provide you off the top of my head. And tell us which one's you are talking about. I think identifying these emotions is necessary, if we are going to continue to debate the issue; otherwise, we are swinging in the dark (IMHO).

Bill Boni

[sevristh]

I believe the emotion that sparked this line of thought in this thread was 'loneliness'...

[goshawks00]

Does it really matter? So what if they get lonely...Yes they have emotions , but life is more than that... The question is, or rather the attempt was to see what others think about releasing imprints... It's already been done hundreds if not thousands of times. No one has died, no one has lost any falconry priveleges... Get over it. If you want to do it, stuff who ever says no, put on your big boy pants and just do it. If you are against it, then don't...Simple eh? Funny how only something like 31 folks thought it important enough to vote but close to 1400 have viewed this thread. Must be the molt ....

[FredFogg]

Fred,

Just go on-line and search for emotions. You will find a bunch of them, more than I could provide you off the top of my head. And tell us which one's you are talking about. I think identifying these emotions is necessary, if we are going to continue to debate the issue; otherwise, we are swinging in the dark (IMHO).

Bill Boni

Bill, there isn't really anything to debate. I believe my birds show emotions (fear, anger, happiness, affection, for example) and others don't believe. Period! End of story! As Barry said, it doesn't really make any difference. But I will state again as I have stated in other threads, I believe the two most important aspects of good falconry are patience and reading your bird. And if I believe I am seeing different emotions when reading my bird and it works for me, then that is all that matters. Enough said!

[MrBill]

Fred,

It seems like you are getting a little defensive. I wasn't trying to do that, at all. It could have developed into an interesting discussion (IMO), but ultimately, you are right, there is no way to prove or disprove whether hawks have emotions. So, while the discussion would have been interesting, it would have amounted to a mental exercise more than anything else and probably upset some folks. Better left unsaid.

Bill Boni

[chamokane]

What the heck is an emotion anyway? Is it a product of higher reasoning, or the the result of some little gray cells being flooded with various hormones? (Honest question.)

I now of an imprint male RT that was released by a falconer, and then recaptured at the request of the game dept because he was hanging around an apartment complex "preying on kittens, puppies, and other domestic critters" and the residents were going to shoot him. The quote is from the game dept.

I know a rehabber who took in an eyas female RT, hand raised her and turned her loose. About a year later the rehabber walked out her back door and the RT hit her hard in the back of the head. When I talked to her, she had the RT in a big chicken wire pen and didn't know what to do with her.

Quite a few people have been hit by wild Goshawks (including me) when trespassing in the nest area. Maybe wild Goshawks should be extirpated.

[goshawks00]

Quite a few people have been hit by wild Goshawks (including me) when trespassing in the nest area. Maybe wild Goshawks should be extirpated.

No, those aren't wild goshawks, they are released imprints of mine, and I want them back

[Jack]

Any time a creature reacts to a particular stemuli, it does so because it is experiencing some sort of emotion. It might not be something we would experience, or it might be something we do experience. I know that they experience fear. And they seem to experience other emotions as well.
Emotions are experienced even without our knowing it sometimes, and we even know sometimes but have no idea why we are experiencing it. We can name our emotions for the most part, but I think we would be assuming too much to think humans were the only creatures capable of emotions.
Try to explain the emotion we call love. In reality, love for our children is simply a maturnal instinct we have. And there are humans that are simply not capable of that emotion. Love for our spouses or significant other can easily be explained as physical attraction. Emotion? Or simply a physical attraction? I can show you some females that you would have difficulty loving, since there would be zero physical attraction. Same goes for men. We are attracted to what pleases the eye, so is that actually love? No matter what emotion you might be experiencing, a sudden change in your hormones can change that emotion just as suddenly. Every brain reacts to homonal change. And the way that brain interacts with the body can be considered an emotion if you think about it.

[sevristh]

From Dictionary.com...
"emotion - an affective state of consciousness in which joy, sorrow, fear, hate, or the like, is experienced, as distinguished from cognitive and volitional states of consciousness."

"instinct -
1. an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species. 2. a natural or innate impulse, inclination, or tendency."

Any time a creature reacts to a particular stemuli, it does so because it is experiencing some sort of emotion.

I disagree. Instinct far better describes the reactions in my opinion than does emotion.

[jal4470]

Fear is an emotion.

Raptors Fear.

Ergo raptors feel emotion.

Now the only thing left to discuss is what other emotions they may or may not feel. Ennui or schadenfreude are probably out, affection, I would say is probably in

[MrBill]

Jacob writes:

>Fear is an emotion.

Raptors Fear.

Ergo raptors feel emotion.

Jacob,

Fear is considered an emotion in humans, but there is also "instict" which Dave has referred to when it comes to an animal being in what could be considered as a fearful situation. Instinct comes from the reptilian (oldest) part of our brain, which results in "fight or flight" type of responses. And, with hawks, based upon the size of their brains, they are much closer to their reptilian ancestors than we are. So, fear is probably not a good example of emotion in terms of hawks.

From what I am reading, without coming right out and saying so, it appears that people are talking about some sort of attachment or affection towards humans, which would certainly be an expression of emotion.

Bill Boni

[wingnut]

Any time a creature reacts to a particular stemuli, it does so because it is experiencing some sort of emotion. It might not be something we would experience, or it might be something we do experience. I know that they experience fear. And they seem to experience other emotions as well.
Emotions are experienced even without our knowing it sometimes, and we even know sometimes but have no idea why we are experiencing it. We can name our emotions for the most part, but I think we would be assuming too much to think humans were the only creatures capable of emotions.
Try to explain the emotion we call love. In reality, love for our children is simply a maturnal instinct we have. And there are humans that are simply not capable of that emotion. Love for our spouses or significant other can easily be explained as physical attraction. Emotion? Or simply a physical attraction? I can show you some females that you would have difficulty loving, since there would be zero physical attraction. Same goes for men. We are attracted to what pleases the eye, so is that actually love? No matter what emotion you might be experiencing, a sudden change in your hormones can change that emotion just as suddenly. Every brain reacts to homonal change. And the way that brain interacts with the body can be considered an emotion if you think about it.

Jack, I love you man. You just put it out there. I enjoy reading your posts and have learned much from your experiences. Many of the things animals and also plants react to have nothing to do with emotions which is quite fortunate. For example, if one touches something very hot (the stimulus) the animals sensory system bypasses the brain and you pull away. No emotions involved. You completely lost me on the whole love thing among humans. I'm thinking the females that you could show us that we would not have a physical attraction to are your old girl friends.

[sevristh]

From what I am reading, without coming right out and saying so, it appears that people are talking about some sort of attachment or affection towards humans, which would certainly be an expression of emotion.

Bill Boni

Bill,

The reason this was brought up initially was more because of a reference to loneliness as it may apply to a released imprint. One of the arguments against releasing them was that they would experience an undue amount of loneliness in the wild since they would not see other hawks as 'company'.

And I agree with your assertion that fear in a hawk is more of a primal instinct than fear in humans. It's somewhat akin to trying to compare the reaction that a human has when jumped in a dark alley to a person's fear of heights, or spiders, or facing a past attacker etc. The fight or flight is more of an instinct, and not so much an emotion. Thus, a raptor showing 'fear', in my opinion, does not show that it feels emotion.

[MrBill]

Dave writes:

>The reason this was brought up initially was more because of a reference to loneliness as it may apply to a released imprint. One of the arguments against releasing them was that they would experience an undue amount of loneliness in the wild since they would not see other hawks as 'company'.

Dave, since feeling lonely refers to being without company, I could see how an imprint might feel that way initially, if released; after all, it has become conditioned to someone playing a big part in their lives. However, I doubt if there is an accompanying feeling of "sadness," but, we will never know, which is a good thing because we can believe what we want to in good conscience :-)

Bill Boni

[jfseaman]

...Quite a few people have been hit by wild Goshawks (including me) when trespassing in the nest area. Maybe wild Goshawks should be extirpated.

Dave,

I believe your point is that humans interact with 'wild' raptors in a number of ways. Released imprints can manifest behaviors that result in the same interactions.

However silly logic leaps like the above cloud your message.

[jfseaman]

Any time a creature reacts to a particular stemuli, it does so because it is experiencing some sort of emotion. It might not be something we would experience, or it might be something we do experience. I know that they experience fear. And they seem to experience other emotions as well.
Emotions are experienced even without our knowing it sometimes, and we even know sometimes but have no idea why we are experiencing it. We can name our emotions for the most part, but I think we would be assuming too much to think humans were the only creatures capable of emotions.
Try to explain the emotion we call love. In reality, love for our children is simply a maturnal instinct we have. And there are humans that are simply not capable of that emotion. Love for our spouses or significant other can easily be explained as physical attraction. Emotion? Or simply a physical attraction? I can show you some females that you would have difficulty loving, since there would be zero physical attraction. Same goes for men. We are attracted to what pleases the eye, so is that actually love? No matter what emotion you might be experiencing, a sudden change in your hormones can change that emotion just as suddenly. Every brain reacts to homonal change. And the way that brain interacts with the body can be considered an emotion if you think about it.

He's done it again folks.