Beebe and Webster - NAFA, when?

[FredFogg]

Fred you are talking out of both sides of your mouth...( sorry not a put down but it does appear you are taking both sides when it pleases you to make a point) first because it isn't an issue with me, you say it should because it effects my falconry...right?.... then you tell me your club says you can something that you recommend be done, but you don't want to and say that it's the clubs responsibility.... don't you think you should contribute, being that it effects your falconry? Are you paying your club officers a salary to do your work for you? Are they using the same amount of hours in a day as you? Fred maybe I'm missing something here... if it all has to do with your falconry , as you say, don't you think you should be involved.

Barry

Barry, how sweet of you to try and not insult me, but you still did! LOL But I am not like others, I just ignore little snide comments made about me because it gets boring going back and forth about little things like that(remember your little smart ass remark about the spars in the chat room, how embarassing for you). And yes, I should do things for my club, and I do. But the point was when a suggestion is made, they don't ask if anyone would like to do this, they immediatly throw it up to the person who suggested it to do it. And that will make others think about not making suggestions if they can't do it. That isn't the way to get things done as an organization or club. And others have a lot more free time than I do, I work 12 hours a day, go to school from 8 to 1 p.m. and sleep about 3 hours a day. I think someone else would have more time to contribute than I. And I know many that would, but they aren't asked because the officers don't ask the membership. That was my point.

[goshawks00]

Actually the snid remark you are referring to was a joke... then I thought what the heck what do I care about you . Others got it! Your point holds no merit... if yopu aren't willing to do something why make the suggestion that others do it... Ever heard of the little red hen??? Oh wait maybe that goes with another thread.
Barry

[FredFogg]

Actually the snid remark you are referring to was a joke... then I thought what the heck what do I care about you . Others got it!

That's funny, I had others ask me what was that remark about later on! I just told them it was your wicked sense of humour! LOL

Your point holds no merit... if yopu aren't willing to do something why make the suggestion that others do it... Barry

A suggestion is for something for the entire club to do, not one individual. But I guess it is time to end this back and forth, you will never get it.

[sharptail]

Yes Jeff that happened but doesn't count<G>. Fred whether there was a conviction, or even charges doesn't stop the fact about what they did. But I agree with you the issue is the way NAFA board handled it ..in that we are in total lock step.
Now then as far as the eagle issue you make it sound as if I thought it was right what happened. that's not the case at all, I do believe Dan has stated it the way it was from his point of view, and I believe he is correct in his interpetation... I do believe NAFA should have handled it better than they did.... and no it doesn't matter to me how it plays out as far as eagles go.... The same way that no one cares about the way importation of raptors are handled because they don't import... do you hear anyone concerned about that... Is NAFA aware of it..sure ...are they you doing anything about it...are you, why not it's your falconry..

Fred you are talking out of both sides of your mouth...( sorry not a put down but it does appear you are taking both sides when it pleases you to make a point) first because it isn't an issue with me, you say it should because it effects my falconry...right?.... then you tell me your club says you can something that you recommend be done, but you don't want to and say that it's the clubs responsibility.... don't you think you should contribute, being that it effects your falconry? Are you paying your club officers a salary to do your work for you? Are they using the same amount of hours in a day as you? Fred maybe I'm missing something here... if it all has to do with your falconry , as you say, don't you think you should be involved.

Barry

I don't see anything of value in this post...Just worthless bull

[goshawks00]

Thanks jeff that was of great value also.

[Dirthawking]

You guys need a break! Go check out this thread!

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=5138

[killjoy]

Mike, that is the million dollar question! I don't know the answers, but I can tell you one thing, you don't bail! The sad thing is falconers don't realize that NAFA and the feds hold hands. The feds decide what we can and can't do. We need to have the right people that will do what "we", the members as a majority, want done with falcorny in the U.S. If we let a select few decide for us, the majority isn't deciding what falconry is going to be in the future. My solution is communication! Everything that is going on and goes on needs to be made public. Every falconer should know and should get off their lazy asses and vote based on the facts. It is pitiful the number of members that vote each time there is a vote. We all want the silver lining but can't even take a few minutes to research the facts and then make a decision on what we have learned. What has happened to NAFA happens every day to corporations across the U.S., someone new comes in with ideas and aspirations to make things better, then they get NAFAsized and are told how things are and how they are done and they become just like the people that are already there. It happens in businesses, I have seen it at where I work. It happens in NAFA.

But the matter of Beebe and Webster, well, my opinion is just look at what they have done over the years, how could you not make them honarary members. Sure, they did stuff a long, long time ago that wasn't right. If anyone has done any research, they can find out about that. But my question is were they charged with a crime, were they convicted of a crime? NO, they weren't! To be honest, the laws back then were so unclear, no one could really say what was right or wrong. But the facts are they weren't convicted, so all those falconers that didn't like what they did, to bad. I think the good they have done far out weighs the bad and they should become honarary members. But to have a petition with the right amount of folks signing it be swept under the table, well, that just isn't right. And it can't be allowed to happen again. Name one falconry book that almost every falconer has in their library and/or was told to have and I bet it will be North American Falconry and Hunting Hawks. That in itself, should be enough to become honaray members!

Fred,

is it just the feds and nafa that have this love affair?
i think the THA and the State of Texas have a wonderful relationship. but i think its more of keep your friends close and your enemies closer type thing, i think the THA is hugging the state and checking for weapons.
Texas is actually having older members of THA help adopt the new regs. I email the licensing agent often just to see if she is ok.
So are things that different outside of texas?
or am i blind to something here in texas?

as for breaking laws, big deal. unless it was absolutely hanus crime, you said it great, every falconer on here has at least 1 of there books, so if their that bad everyone send their copy of NAFAH to me so i can corner the market on them and retire now!!

there are falconers who have broken the rules of falconry in NAFA now, so why is it any different for them? a rule is a rule, shouldnt matter what the rule was that was broken.

had AIG give $1.00 bonus instead of $1 million dollar bonus, would it make a difference? it shouldnt, you should be mad if they received a $.10 bonus, it was our tax money no matter what, tax it 90% and get that $.09 back.

[NMHighPlains]

I headed NAFA's Eagle Committee for over 10 years. I was a major player. We have eagles now. I always thought of myself as a falconer's falconer. I guess some of NAFA's new leadership thinks differently.

I wasn't aware that you'd dropped NAFA membership and you're absolutely right- at least the last time I was semi-involved- you WERE a "major player." For you to drop NAFA is a powerful statement, IMHO.

[areal]

I had to look at some of the posts on here twice to make sure I hadnt read them wrong.
Committees, the beaurocratic alternative to achieving something!!

[Richard F, Hoyer]

Below is a message I just posted on the Oregon Falconers Assn. web site which included the link and message (by Mike Dupuy) that appeared at the beginning of this thread. NAFA president Dan Cecchini lives in Bend, Oregon and is an OFA member.

Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)

=============================

"This morning, I received the following link and message from a long time NAFA member from Texas. This same link and message recently appeared on the North American Falconers Exchange forum. OFA members can access the NAFEX site to view the comments made by other falconers.

However, to reach an informed position, it is best to be exposed to both sides of issues. Thus, I hope NAFA president Dan Cecchini will be so kind as to provide a response which could then be transmitted throughout the falconry community."

[wyodjm]

I quit em. Didn't go out like a lion or screaming, kick'n and hollering, just dropped my membership and forgot about it. I quit WRTC too. I'm tired of fighting battles when the biggest advisary has a hawk on his fist. No siree I'm not fighting falconers!!! I'm certainly not alone either. Does my leaving along with some other long time NAFA members matter? Probably not. It simply isn't important to us anymore.

If you notice I hardly bitch anymore nor do I post on anything confrontational. Been there then asked myself why.

Gone hawk'n instead of just a talk'n.

That's why I've always liked you Brad. You've always been smarter than me.

[Mitchellbrad]

That's why I've always liked you Brad. You've always been smarter than me.

I don't think it's a question of being smarter Dan<G> If I'd made a stink they would have pointed towards the door and told me to use it. Provided anyone bothered to notice.

Nah, it simply isn't worth it. I'm more interested in flying my birds than anything else.

Brad

[wyodjm]

I don't think it's a question of being smarter Dan<G> If I'd made a stink they would have pointed towards the door and told me to use it. Provided anyone bothered to notice.

Nah, it simply isn't worth it. I'm more interested in flying my birds than anything else.

Brad

I agree. I won't fight with falconers anymore either. Or should I say against the ivory towers that some of them dwell in! I never should have. I'm more interested in flying my birds also.

BTW, I just wrote a donation check to the NRA. I'd rather put money into an organization that supports me and what I like to do. Own a gun and hunt!

ATB,

Dan

[Mitchellbrad]

I agree. I won't fight with falconers anymore either. Or should I say against the ivory towers that some of them dwell in! I never should have. I'm more interested in flying my birds also.

BTW, I just wrote a donation check to the NRA. I'd rather put money into an organization that supports me and what I like to do. Own a gun and hunt!

ATB,

Dan

I'm a NRA member too!!!

Brad

[sharptail]

I agree. I won't fight with falconers anymore either. Or should I say against the ivory towers that some of them dwell in! I never should have. I'm more interested in flying my birds also.

BTW, I just wrote a donation check to the NRA. I'd rather put money into an organization that supports me and what I like to do. Own a gun and hunt!

ATB,

Dan

Hi Dan,
So when your current falconry Goldies are gone, will that be the end of your golden eagle falconry? Will you let it slip under, no more fight?

I recently sent my check to Gun Owners Of America, they say they are 'no compromise', something I fear from the NRA, guess we will see.

[wyodjm]

Hi Dan,
So when your current falconry Goldies are gone, will that be the end of your golden eagle falconry? Will you let it slip under, no more fight?

I recently sent my check to Gun Owners Of America, they say they are 'no compromise', something I fear from the NRA, guess we will see.

That's the nice thing about America. You may send money to whatever organization you wish. Your money, your choice.

I don't know you. With all due respect, please don't be too concerned about me having access to golden eagles for falconry. I'm not worried. Besides, I can always fly a passage goshawk on rabbits and ducks.

BTW, I've always thought the use of the term goldie, was dumb.

Cheers,

DM

[sharptail]

That's the nice thing about America. You may send money to whatever organization you wish. Your money, your choice.

I don't know you. With all due respect, please don't be too concerned about me having access to golden eagles for falconry. I'm not worried. Besides, I can always fly a passage goshawk on rabbits and ducks.

BTW, I've always thought the use of the term goldie, was dumb.

Cheers,

DM

Odd, we have spoken on a couple of occasions!

[wyodjm]

Odd, we have spoken on a couple of occasions!

Ummm, sorry.

DM

[Lowachi]

I don't think it's a question of being smarter Dan<G> If I'd made a stink they would have pointed towards the door and told me to use it. Provided anyone bothered to notice.

Nah, it simply isn't worth it. I'm more interested in flying my birds than anything else.

Brad

Well. I've been reading this thread...all of it....can't say I'm not ready to roll over and just go fly my birds and say the hell with it just yet. But I always preached " you should join the 'insert state club' and support NAFA. Now, I have 2 sons in this. One is 18, a first year apprentice( with 8 years hands on), the other is 14, with close to 6. What example am I setting by quitting?
I went to see an old friend/apprentice and his gyr & finnish gos projects last weekend. The conversation eventually hit politics, and aside from being stunned by my son's comments & insites, I was more amazed that I had no answers to his quandries. The hour drive home didn't help answer his questions eitherfrus. "how do we get directors in place that serve those that elected them, and vote accordingly, and not to their personal interests and benefit ?" "how can this club(NAFA) continue if 500 members quit the first of the year in protest?"..."Who's going to be left for me to learn from when you're gone, if all the ol' timers/experienced people take their ball and go home ?" What would you all have said? I understand the grievances,transgretions, the offenses taken, and the general 'talking to the wall' feeling-like I said, I've been close. I just don't see how to fix it from the outside, granted I'm pressuming it's wanted to be fixed. Not sure I can make much of a difference, but for awhile, I'll stick it out and try. And for those that are questioning my sanity, yes I hear voices... I just don't answer back-out loud.
This is a lot of typing with a bird on the fist and late with an hour of sign painting left to do.

[everetkhorton]

I don't think it's a question of being smarter Dan<G> If I'd made a stink they would have pointed towards the door and told me to use it. Provided anyone bothered to notice.

Nah, it simply isn't worth it. I'm more interested in flying my birds than anything else.

Brad

Brad:
I guess the importanted thing is we can fly our birds. There is not a club on this earth where everyone get to vote on every single issue, None.
I think the people that do not know what Webster did should contact the Wy. court and fine out for themselves. It was a long time ago, but it may have effected what is going on today. JMO.

[outhawkn]

How many of you have gotten a speeding ticket? Then paid your fine and moved on, or received a DUI. You broke the law and paid for it. But you are still allowed to own and drive a car.Its the same thing. I think his contribution outways the offense. That being said I think it should be up to the members to vote on it and thats a real shame that we will never be allowed to because of the power struggle within NAFA. Members have been tryin for years to vote out the troublesome members but old loyalties run deep. I would like to have voted in this last elction but never received a ballot. (again). I think it would be better to let NAFA die and start a new national club.The USFWS does not hold NAFA in as high a regard as NAFA would like to think. JMO

[Mitchellbrad]

Brad:
I guess the importanted thing is we can fly our birds. There is not a club on this earth where everyone get to vote on every single issue, None.
I think the people that do not know what Webster did should contact the Wy. court and fine out for themselves. It was a long time ago, but it may have effected what is going on today. JMO.

Ev,

I know exactly what Webster did! That's not important because he paid for his stupidity. What's important is people remember the good Frank and Hal did. Too much hate and I can assure you it's hate, soul burning hate against those two. What Hal did has no bearing on what is going on today on the federal level. What's going on with falconers is altogether a different thing, none will forget their real and imagined hate against those two. No Thank You, I'll have no part of an organization with a level of hate against people ingrained so deeply it's rotting the very center of it's core

[wyodjm]

Ev,

I know exactly what Webster did! That's not important because he paid for his stupidity. What's important is people remember the good Frank and Hal did. Too much hate and I can assure you it's hate, soul burning hate against those two. What Hal did has no bearing on what is going on today on the federal level. What's going on with falconers is altogether a different thing, none will forget their real and imagined hate against those two. No Thank You, I'll have no part of an organization with a level of hate against people ingrained so deeply it's rotting the very center of it's core

I agree Brad. Well written.

ATB,

Dan

[dirtwinger]

Interesting thread with some strong opinions and some good examples of what I think of as the falconer stereotype. This isnt intended as a slight to anyone as I am as guilty of this as the majority of falconers. My observation is this you give two falconers a piece of rope and they will pull in opposite directions, we are just a independant ornery bunch it's inbuilt into most falconers natures.
I think that falconry has come of age in the USA and now there is a desire to maintain the status quo and dont rock the boat. The reality is real boats rock and if it doesn't get a good shakeup once in while it becomes stagnant. Beurocratic types hate turmoil and fight it tooth and nail even if the end result will make things better.
What Nafa really needs to serve American falconers are folks who make things happen, every year they should be polling members asking what they want, what they fear will affect thier falconry and going after it. But that means members have to be involved or the placators and paper shufflers rise to the top. Sure we have gained a lot and it is scary to risk that but you have to stick your neck out and take a risk every once in while.

All the best

[sharptail]

How many of you have gotten a speeding ticket? Then paid your fine and moved on, or received a DUI. You broke the law and paid for it. But you are still allowed to own and drive a car.Its the same thing. I think his contribution outways the offense. That being said I think it should be up to the members to vote on it and thats a real shame that we will never be allowed to because of the power struggle within NAFA. Members have been tryin for years to vote out the troublesome members but old loyalties run deep. I would like to have voted in this last elction but never received a ballot. (again). I think it would be better to let NAFA die and start a new national club.The USFWS does not hold NAFA in as high a regard as NAFA would like to think. JMO

Unfortunately, I think NAFA serves the USFWS as a rubber stamp of approval while not even being concerned about the basic RIGHTS, hard won and long established in this country. It does not serve what the majority of falconers would like to see or deserve, which is the maximum freedom within the constraints that the resource will safely allow. The MBTA needs to be revisited on a conflict of (basic) laws basis, along with the validity of the USFWS' mission statement. The 'people' in this country were ment to rule, not the government, and NAFA has become the govn't tool to subvert this.

Beebe and Webster are what they are and as Brad said, we remember the good, generally, with a few that hold old festering grudges. As the board has pointed out, they have honored these 2 with an award. I have no doubt that there plaques will honor them on the "Wall of Rememberance" at the Archives. To me, Beebe and Webster are whom they are and are not the issue, but an example of what the issue is, as is the Golden Eagle(just for you Dan, allmost put goldie.) issue.

[wyodjm]

Unfortunately, I think NAFA serves the USFWS as a rubber stamp of approval while not even being concerned about the basic RIGHTS, hard won and long established in this country. It does not serve what the majority of falconers would like to see or deserve, which is the maximum freedom within the constraints that the resource will safely allow. The MBTA needs to be revisited on a conflict of (basic) laws basis, along with the validity of the USFWS' mission statement. The 'people' in this country were ment to rule, not the government, and NAFA has become the govn't tool to subvert this.

Beebe and Webster are what they are and as Brad said, we remember the good, generally, with a few that hold old festering grudges. As the board has pointed out, they have honored these 2 with an award. I have no doubt that there plaques will honor them on the "Wall of Rememberance" at the Archives. To me, Beebe and Webster are whom they are and are not the issue, but an example of what the issue is, as is the Golden Eagle(just for you Dan, allmost put goldie.) issue.

Well put. I don't have any answers. I'm burned out. But again, well put. I agree with what you wrote.

ATB,

[Mitchellbrad]

Well put. I don't have any answers. I'm burned out. But again, well put. I agree with what you wrote.

ATB,

I too am burned out. What's past is past. If one dwells on the mistakes of past there will be no future. One has to be a student of history so the same mistakes aren't made a second or third time but it does no one any good to live in the past.

Brad

[sharptail]

I too am burned out. What's past is past. If one dwells on the mistakes of past there will be no future. One has to be a student of history so the same mistakes aren't made a second or third time but it does no one any good to live in the past.

Brad

Forgive me but, one foot in the grave is it? How much effort could it be to sign up and cast a few votes? I am not asking you to take on the board with knife and tooth.

[wyodjm]

Forgive me but, one foot in the grave is it? How much effort could it be to sign up and cast a few votes? I am not asking you to take on the board with knife and tooth.

Cheers Jeff,

Dan

[FredFogg]

I too am burned out. What's past is past. If one dwells on the mistakes of past there will be no future. One has to be a student of history so the same mistakes aren't made a second or third time but it does no one any good to live in the past.

Brad

I am all about putting the past in the past, but when just recently (the past), a petition (and this could be any petition that met the required number to be voted on) was slid under the table, then you have to bring the past up and get it corrected so it doesn't happen in the future. And that basically, is what this entire thread is about! The members of NAFA have to stand up and stop this kind of stuff. I personally think that all involved that allowed this to happen should be kicked off the board of NAFA. They broke the bylaws and shouldn't be allowed to serve. But the problem is not enough falconers will take a stand, they just want to do their falconry (me included). So the problem will probably never be fixed! Just my opinion! and

[wyodjm]

I am all about putting the past in the past, but when just recently (the past), a petition (and this could be any petition that met the required number to be voted on) was slid under the table, then you have to bring the past up and get it corrected so it doesn't happen in the future. And that basically, is what this entire thread is about! The members of NAFA have to stand up and stop this kind of stuff. I personally think that all involved that allowed this to happen should be kicked off the board of NAFA. They broke the bylaws and shouldn't be allowed to serve. But the problem is not enough falconers will take a stand, they just want to do their falconry (me included). So the problem will probably never be fixed! Just my opinion! and

It's sad what NAFA has become. There comes a time, however, when all this negativity has to end and you have to move on. We all have lives and families. We practice falconry as individuals. It's about flying our birds. At the end of the day, it's just you and your bird. NAFA is a nonevent.

ATB,

[FredFogg]

It's sad what NAFA has become. There comes a time, however, when all this negativity has to end and you have to move on. We all have lives and families. We practice falconry as individuals. It's about flying our birds. At the end of the day, it's just you and your bird. NAFA is a nonevent.

ATB,

I totally agree it is all about flying our birds, I would love to just do that. But to say NAFA is a nonevent, well, when they persuade the Feds to change the regs to something that won't allow you to fly your eagles or some other stupid regulation, then it is no longer a nonevent. And yeah, sure, you can still fly them, we all can fly any bird we want, but do we really want to be looking over our shoulder the entire time we are flying? I would like to keep it legal and the only way to do that is to make sure NAFA does what the majority wants. That isn't happening now. And for anyone to think they don't have influence with the Feds, well, they are living in a dream world.

[Migisi]

...But the problem is not enough falconers will take a stand...

A quote comes to mind...

"Stand with anybody that stands right, stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong."
--- Abraham Lincoln

Many have parted with NAFA.

For me personally, rather than brood over what I can't change: "For peace of mind, resign as general manager of the universe."
--- Larry Eisenberg

[wyodjm]

I totally agree it is all about flying our birds, I would love to just do that. But to say NAFA is a nonevent, well, when they persuade the Feds to change the regs to something that won't allow you to fly your eagles or some other stupid regulation, then it is no longer a nonevent. And yeah, sure, you can still fly them, we all can fly any bird we want, but do we really want to be looking over our shoulder the entire time we are flying? I would like to keep it legal and the only way to do that is to make sure NAFA does what the majority wants. That isn't happening now. And for anyone to think they don't have influence with the Feds, well, they are living in a dream world.

This isn't going anywhere. NAFA doesn't have as much pull with the feds as many people are saying. That's propaganda and it's fear mongering.

I was a member of NAFA for over 30 years. I also worked with the feds and several states regarding eagles for over 20 years on NAFA's and Wyoming's behalf. I'm saying this as politely as I can. NAFA doesn't have that much pull with the Feds. Certain individuals within NAFA may have certain working relationships with certain feds, but that's about the extent of it. But, so do I. I also have a working relationship my state Game and Fish Dept. That doesn't mean anything.

Here's the bottom line. Down the road, if NAFA continues on its current path of inner sanctum, ivory tower politics, it will be just happy when the membership dwindles down to perhaps under a thousand of dues paying, no questions asked, no confrontation members. NAFA doesn't represent the majority of licensed falconers. It probably doesn't want to because it would have to be more accountable.

The majority of licensed falconers in the U.S. currently don't belong to NAFA. Say what you will, but you can't argue with the math. NAFA isn't a falconers' union or a religious cult. It's just a club. In my opinion, it has very little credibility. If NAFA ever changes, I'll join again. So would 1,000+ other people.

I'm not trying to argue with people. I'm just trying to provide solid information. There's so much bad information out there. NAFA just is what it is.

[FredFogg]

Dan, if you and that 1,000 other falconers would join NAFA, maybe we could make that change. It will never happen with the current membership!